Triangle road & traffic thread

[sax184]

I drove the new highway a little after rush hour yesterday. 40 was still crowded; 540 was almost empty. That, to me, proves that loop highways play only an extremely minor role in congestion reduction. Their real raison d'etre is to provide the framework for new development to happen. This highway will be only lightly used until more of the development in the pipe in northwest Cary comes online. The new 540 would be completely pointless had far northwest Cary not been zoned for medium-to-high density suburban development.

Ha! So true. For more fun, drive on 540 on Sunday morning around 5 am. There is a decent chance you will ride all alone for several miles, feeling like one of those guys in the car commercials who always gets to drive on a "closed course."

[Jones_]

Jojo, I am not familiar with DOT design......I do water and wastewater design review.....every little pipe between every vault, tank and basin must be sized to accomodate the water moving through it, whether gravity is pushing it, a pump is pushing it, it contains alot of sediment or whatever.....often these links are oversized so that the larger structures become the limiting factors......how much attention is really given to things like ramps beyond banking them for the speed limit?...is thought given to a ramp handling 40k vs 80k cars per day? The little pipe (ramp) between the two tanks of water (540 and 40) seems to have not been adequately "sized", with road size being some combination of lanes and speed allowed to get the water (cars) through faster. Also what future design capacity dictates? 20 year projections? 10 years? 5 years? Wastewater structures are sized for 20 year flow projections because the design life of the concrete, pumps etc. is 20 years. Thanks.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Raleigh, Charlotte and other major cities in NC have the same problem. NCDOT can not forecast the traffic volume on new projects. It looks as if they use data 30 years old. If all the major cities don't get together and change the hwy funding to help these cities traffic grid lock, NC will be passed over by companies wanting looking to locate here.

I485 on the south side of Charlotte is a good example of poor planning , just like you have in the triangle.

[ChiefJoJo]

The Davis/Kit Creek 540 interchange is waaayyyy over the top, like something out of a sci-fi movie. All kinds of flyovers and multiple lanes for getting on and off. I'm sure Cisco is happy!

I know part of this is in anticipation of the Triangle Expressway intergration, but I don't know how that interchange got all the bells and whistles (as did Capitol Blvd) while 540/40 was done on the cheap.

You got it--it's there so that when 147 is extended down it ties right in.

Jojo, I am not familiar with DOT design......I do water and wastewater design review.....every little pipe between every vault, tank and basin must be sized to accomodate the water moving through it, whether gravity is pushing it, a pump is pushing it, it contains alot of sediment or whatever.....often these links are oversized so that the larger structures become the limiting factors......how much attention is really given to things like ramps beyond banking them for the speed limit?...is thought given to a ramp handling 40k vs 80k cars per day? The little pipe (ramp) between the two tanks of water (540 and 40) seems to have not been adequately "sized", with road size being some combination of lanes and speed allowed to get the water (cars) through faster. Also what future design capacity dictates? 20 year projections? 10 years? 5 years? Wastewater structures are sized for 20 year flow projections because the design life of the concrete, pumps etc. is 20 years. Thanks.

Yeah, it's done about the same way, except the variables are growth, people, and cars, not rainfall, and impervious area. Predicting stormwater, you have regional rainfall charts and plenty of historical data, and so unless it's a Floyd-like event, all you're dealing with is impervious area, which isn't too hard to predict in small doses. In travel forecasting you have demographic forecasting and models that predict future travel by each mode. The "science" of forecasting has really moved forward recently. Technology has allowed more complex computer models that often take hours, or even days to run completely. Some areas of the country even use land use models to predict how transportation infrastructure will effect growth, and travel models that simulate people's actions. It can be very complex stuff. Ever heard, "crap in = crap out?" You're only as good as your data, and the data is getting better. Unfortunately, some of the past results haven't been as good given the rapid pace of growth many areas have experienced.

Raleigh, Charlotte and other major cities in NC have the same problem. NCDOT can not forecast the traffic volume on new projects. It looks as if they use data 30 years old. If all the major cities don't get together and change the hwy funding to help these cities traffic grid lock, NC will be passed over by companies wanting looking to locate here.

I485 on the south side of Charlotte is a good example of poor planning , just like you have in the triangle.

I agree with most of what you said except 485 S projections. I don't want to go into it here--ask monsoon or do a search in the hwy thread in the Charlotte forum.

[DPK]

Give them about 10 years and they'll have another "oh crap we should have fixed this sooner" moment, like how they are just now getting around to widening US-1/440 from 40 to Wade Avenue. The 40-540 interchange will get fixed, it'll just take them forever to do it.

[Cary NC]

Give them about 10 years and they'll have another "oh crap we should have fixed this sooner" moment, like how they are just now getting around to widening US-1/440 from 40 to Wade Avenue. The 40-540 interchange will get fixed, it'll just take them forever to do it.

That or a senator's niece is killed in a car accident at the interchange and then suddenly $$$$ will appear. I have seen that plenty of times with stop lights and other intersections.

[Cary NC]

Wait I may have been wrong. The DOT has ears and their email boxes are filing up with complaints.

WRAL reports this story.

http://www.wral.com/traffic/video/1613868/

[DPK]

Wait I may have been wrong. The DOT has ears and their email boxes are filing up with complaints.

WRAL reports this story.

http://www.wral.com/traffic/video/1613868/

Here's the text based article as well:

http://wral.com/traffic/story/1613867/

Great to hear them admit they were wrong:

The North Carolina Department of Transportation on Thursday admitted it should have planned better to avoid new daily delays on Interstate 540 in Wake County.

[ncwebguy]

The Triangle Expressway ran into anothe roadblock.

WRAL is reporting that the state House won't touch the Senate's bill that would have raised the gap funding for the Triangle Expressway and other roads around the state. The money would have been raised via registration fees and a 1% increase in the vehicle sales tax, which would still be below the "regular" sales tax I think.

Now Apex's mayor is going to fight for a toll-free 540. "It'll hopefully bring us back to the table with a more reasonable plan to complete the Outer Loop without tolls," Apex Mayor Keith Weatherly said.

A four lane 55 into Durham and NC 540 to 55 isn't enough. Meanwhile, I-40 from Wade to US 1 is still two lanes and has no money in future budgets dedicated to fix that.

[ChiefJoJo]

Good news, the GA may have a special session to debate transportation needs. It wasn't surprising that the house didn't want to tough funding as it would have been another tax increase, right after the biggest state budget in history--one that included the new transfer tax for counties (which I applaud). I'm not optimistic, but at least someone is recognizing the need, and maybe by the fall, the reps will have time to deflect the local heat over allowing the transfer tax. I'd expect the toll gap funding to be the number one priority in any new bills.

We can sit here and debate the need for the triangle expressway, but the state does need to fund that old bridge over the Yadkin River on I-85 (which is being looked at by the NCTA). It always makes the list among the most deficient bridges in the state, and of course, it provides a critical link in the center of NC on the state's busiest interstate. As bad is it sounds, the tragedy in Minneapolis might just kick-start things here in NC.

[DPK]

Now Apex's mayor is going to fight for a toll-free 540. "It'll hopefully bring us back to the table with a more reasonable plan to complete the Outer Loop without tolls," Apex Mayor Keith Weatherly said.

How about we just bypass Apex with 540 and put no exits in that stretch of interstate to get to Apex. Their mayor is living in some kind of weird reality.

[Jones_]

^^ well obviously his 25 thousand residents have and will pay enough tax in 20-30 years to pay for a massive limited access multilane expressway in its entirety They are all commuting to the same place roughly...I bet ten bus routes fully loaded going from 10 points in Apex to ten points in RTP with service every fifteen minutes would eliminate the need for 540. 250 fewer cars every fifteen minutes for an hour....thousand cars total......what, a few million vs. a few hundred million...

[JeffC]

Has this Apex mayor actually proposed a plan for building and paying for his part of 540? 'Cuz all I seem to hear is him grandstanding against the plan that has been put forth.

[ChiefJoJo]

Has this Apex mayor actually proposed a plan for building and paying for his part of 540? 'Cuz all I seem to hear is him grandstanding against the plan that has been put forth.

I believe he has proposed tolling all of existing 540, as he feels W/SW Wake residents have been dealt with inequitably. I think you can make arguments either way. The reality is roads are much more expensive to build now, and fighting for tolls on existing 540 is probably going to be a political non-starter, and besides, CAMPO already voted to approve the tolls.

[pack-man]

our economy won't be able to afford building roads anymore in 15 years. :(

[ncwebguy]

I can't imagine what life is like for the families who lost someone in the 35W bridge collapse, or the new commute patterns that area will endure because of the failure of one bridge. The recent crash on 40 shows how disruptive losing one section of interstate can be for the area.

That being said, I hope this gives the General Assembly the political will to increase the new car sales tax and registration fees to pay for long overdue repairs (the Yadkin bridge and some others in western NC) and provide gap funding for other long overdue projects -- Triangle Expressway, Durham's East End connector (how quickly could it be built as a toll road vs. toll-free?), etc.

And maybe, just mabye, look into better mass transit options throughout the state, but especially in the I-85/high speed rail corridor.

With the state's gas tax appears to be capped (which I think is a big mistake) and fuel efficient cars will contribute less in gas taxes despite the same amount of use, alternative revenue models -- registration, vehcile sales tax, heavy duty truck tolling -- need to be explored.

I drove up Morrisvile-Carpenter Road from US 64 to NC 54 and it was amazing to see how many cookie cutter developments were down there *and* how much new homes were going for. The most ironic place was Carpenter Village, which billed itself as having a "town center" for shopping when it was built. They finishes all the houses (with houses to the east of the "center" having garages off alleys), yet the space set aside for shopping is still mostly empty. I don't know how old the Google satellite image is, but there is still an empty space where the shopping was supposed to go. Yet there is plenty of shopping options to the east at Davis and Morrisville-Carpenter (the dirt spaces on the Google map). That may be more due to being on the west edge of Preston than proximity to Carpenter Village

[ChiefJoJo]

WRAL story on the NCTA looking at private financing of the Triangle Expressway.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Mark Roberts needs to lean what county that Monroe is in. It is Union county not Monroe County.

Chief do you think any of these projects will see light in the next 5 years?

[ChiefJoJo]

Mark Roberts needs to lean what county that Monroe is in. It is Union county not Monroe County.

Chief do you think any of these projects will see light in the next 5 years?

If MUMPO votes to toll the entire project, the Monroe project would be the only fully-funded toll project in NC, with a completion date of 2013. The only chance for the Triangle Expressway is for the legislature to reconvene this fall (being talked about) and come up with additional gap revenue for toll roads. If there is funding for the gap, the TriExpy could be built by 2011.

As I said on the Charlotte forum, there have been whispers of opening up the "equity formula" for debate. It has been unchanged since 1989, despite changing growth patterns in the urban areas and new priorities in the state.

[RaleighRob]

Mark Roberts needs to lean what county that Monroe is in. It is Union county not Monroe County.

Don't expect too much from him...in another report, he seems to not have a clue when it comes to the difference between Bio-Diesel and Ethanol...and pretty much treating them as the same thing throughout the entire piece.

[ChiefJoJo]

I noticed now that the turnpike gap funding is in limbo, some folks are saying let's toll the whole thing. And word from NCTA, let's explore 'private funding.'

I'm at the point where I don't really care how they do it, although a TIF could help, and would at least capture some of the sprawl that this road intends to serve. Just like TOD, those people are the most likely users, so let them pay for it.

[ChiefJoJo]

Roadbuilding might be in county's future & I-40 job may be finished ahead of schedule.

[orulz]

Now that I've moved back to Raleigh, and my daily commute on the TTA bus takes me through the rush-hour bottleneck of I-40 mileposts 287-289 (Harrison to I-40) I've had plenty of opportunity to contemplate why traffic backs up so badly there eastbound in the afternoon in spite of the fact that there are the same number of lanes entering and leaving the area.

I've heard theories ranging from people waiting until the last minute to get in the correct lane for their destination (I-40 vs. Wade) to the fact that tractor trailers can't keep their speed while climbing the hill leading up to Harrison.

I've decided that while both of these are a part of the problem, they aren't the root cause.

The root of the problem is traffic merging onto I-40 East from Harrison Avenue. People heading onto 40 east from Harrison Avenue have to weave across 2 lanes of extremely heavy traffic in about 1.25 miles, and must cut off many people in order to do so.

The solution I came up with would be to maintain the current onramp from Harrison to I-40 as on onramp to Wade Avenue, and build a long ramp from harrison avenue to the Wade-I40E ramp. Here is a map:

Click here.

[pack-man]

that isn't a bad solution. Overall, they still need to increase that section of I-40 between Wade and 1/64 to 3+ lanes. There is a bottleneck at the Wade split. I do agree that adding the flow from Harrison to I-40 east doesn't make things any easier. The overall problem is the volume being condensed down to just 2 lanes of traffic. At peak hours, this is going to be a severe problem.

I heard that the widening of this section was fast-tracked, but I heard in the news that they are just going to be putting a thin coat of fresh asphalt down. What is the deal out there?

[cophead567]

The root of the problem is traffic merging onto I-40 East from Harrison Avenue. People heading onto 40 east from Harrison Avenue have to weave across 2 lanes of extremely heavy traffic in about 1.25 miles, and must cut off many people in order to do so.

The solution I came up with would be to maintain the current onramp from Harrison to I-40 as on onramp to Wade Avenue, and build a long ramp from harrison avenue to the Wade-I40E ramp.

I've noticed that problem too and agree with you. It seems like lots of people are trying to merge 2 lanes over to get on 40E. I do that route every workday so i'm very used to it. However, I stay towards the right and get on wade ave. from 40E.

Although it would cost more then your proposal, I've always thought that switching 40E and wade would be a good solution. If you notice the entrance to wade are the two right lanes, 40E are the two left lanes. they criss cross afterwards, with wade going under 40E. If wade ave. were the two lefts lanes and 40E were the two right lanes, the highways were then appropriately connected, it would solve this merging problem. Plus with talks of adding a third lane to the now 2 lanes of 40 going through cary, you could make the on ramp from harrison run right onto a new third lane of 40E. it would flow freely right onto the highway and you could stay in your lane already be on 40E. you still have to merge 2 lanes to get onto wade from the harrison exit but 40E just seems like the more popular choice by commuters.

just a thought