Triangle road & traffic thread

[ChiefJoJo]

I think the weaving section at Harrison/40 is part of it, but I believe the biggest reason is the imbalance in the traffic leaving the I-40/Wade spit in the PM. The count at I-40 east of Harrison is 155k... while half the lanes stay on 40 (& half on Wade), more than half the traffic (89k, 2006 data) remains on I-40, but there is only half the capacity. Actually the daily (155k & 89k) traffic numbers don't tell the whole story since you don't see the directional splits, which are likely to be between 55-60% WB in AM and EB in PM, so that makes an already bad situation even worse.

That entire area is basically maxed out at rush hour, and the only way the current configuration would work is if the splits were 50/50 heading east. That I-40 segment has the same problem in the morning heading west near Gorman St, as the traffic backs up when the 3rd WB lane drops towards I-440. Fortunately I don't drive in any of it, but I hear about the backups every morning. I believe there is a proposal to widen I-40 in Cary to 6 lanes in that 4-lane stretch (the narrowest segment of the road between Chapel Hill and Garner)

[orulz]

The overall problem is the volume being condensed down to just 2 lanes of traffic. At peak hours, this is going to be a severe problem.

Certainly I-40 through there needs to be widened. Probably to 4 lanes. I guess I'd just like to see them include some way to mitigate the Harrison weave along with the project, too (as if we aren't already spending enough $$ on highways...)

As far as the TTA bus is concerned, though, they could make things better right now without any heavy construction by implementing bus bypass shoulders (something which I believe the agency is investigating right now).

[Cary NC]

With the widening of the 2 lanes from the Wade ave/Harrison split to 1/64 split off of I-40, I have noticed ALOT of DOT trucks out there surveying and even noticed private engineers out there. There are also tall stakes in the median where a concrete barrier would go to divide traffic. Is it possible that the DOT is going to grant the $40M to widen the road sooner than we expected. Any updates would be appreciated.

[ncwebguy]

The only problem with putting I-40 EB traffic on the right side is that it will make merging on from Harrison Ave even more difficult. It will be a similar problem that vehicles getting on EB 40 from Page Ave, Miami Blvd, and sometimes Davis Drive have due to the line of traffic lineing up to get on the I-540 EB flyover.

This could be solved by making the "Orulz lane" for Harrison Ave traffic only, while allowing Harrison to Wade traffic use the existing merge lane to go due east. Then it merges with the existing WB Wade -> I 40 East flyover (which is rarely used!) and becomes the new third lane of I 40 east toward NC 54. So you don't have to worry about "SAS worker weaving", through EB 40 traffic can stay in its two lanes and will back up less since the three lanes will let traffic flow better east of the Wade Ave interchange. A third lane from WB 40 could be brought around on a bridge and the "new" lane on WB 40 between Wade and Harrison can be extended to the widened WB bridge.

They have been closing lanes on 40 to do surveying off and on for a month or so now, so they're looking into it. I don't have any idea if/when construction will start.

[cophead567]

^ yeah good call, seems a lot simpler that way.

you're right about the miami, page jam up before 540. you need to merge almost all the way over to get out of that mess.

[pack-man]

i hope the surveying you are referring to is in regards the widening, but something tells me that it is in regards to the paving job that is about to be done. They have also been adding drainage in the wide median. I hope that I am wrong however.

The most expensive cost to this project would be widening the 2 bridges over wade ave. and the 2 bridges over 1/64. I don't believe the NCDOT will buy into another scenario.

[orulz]

I wonder what if any improvements are planned for the 440/40/1/64 interchange. Will they keep the C/D + cloverleaf design, or go for some high-speed ramps. Or will any improvements be done as a part of the 440 widening between Wade and the 40/1/64 interchange?

[ChiefJoJo]

I wonder what if any improvements are planned for the 440/40/1/64 interchange. Will they keep the C/D + cloverleaf design, or go for some high-speed ramps. Or will any improvements be done as a part of the 440 widening between Wade and the 40/1/64 interchange?

I think any interchange work would be prohibitively expensive. I'm 95% sure it would only be median widening in the grass (which isn't too expensive, relatively speaking).

There are two projects in the state TIP:

I-40, SR 1728 (WADE AVENUE, MILEPOST 289) TO I-440/US 1-64 (MILEPOST 293).

PAVEMENT REPAIR. 4 Mile(s)

CONSTRUCTION FY 08

&

I-40, SR 1728 (WADE AVENUE, MILEPOST 289) TO I-440/US 1-64 (MILEPOST 293). ADD LANES. 4 Mile(s)

The former repair is probably what is going on now. The latter widening project has a projected cost of $60M, but has no funding. IIRC, CAMPO's plan was to try to redirect funds ($30M) from another project to I-40, but only enough to widen to 6 and not 8 lanes.

Did anyone catch the Indy article on the East End Connector? Interesting, but comparisons to the old Durham Freeway project are off the mark. Sure, if you interview everyone in the path of the road, you're going to find some pissed off people. But almost every local board supports this project, so there's it's not like DOT is forcing this on the city. What are others' thoughts?

[RaleighRob]

Agreed on East End Connector. I am very surprised about that one guy they interviewed with the newer houses in the path. The road's been on the books since the 50s and he had no clue? There's a disconnect somewhere. The city guy who said he can't stop development permits, by state law, unless a specific alignment is chosen. Ok...that makes some sense....but you couldn't at least warn somebody that a road is likely in the area?

As for the rest...all I can say is they did pick the alternative that had the least residential AND environmental impacts. There's little else you could do...every road is gonna disrupt something. I wasn't too keen on the one guy wanting to cast blame on the people who stopped Eno Drive...that has practically nothing to do with this project other than the shifting of funds.

I'm surprised widening I-40 for 4 miles is gonna cost 60 million! Especially when it has so much grassy median to use. I guess the pricey part would be those overpasses over Wade?

[pack-man]

there would definitely be some bridge work, which will inflate the price to $60 mill. somebody needs to step and fund this project.

[ChiefJoJo]

The discussion we are having is timely as CAMPO is asking that DOT move up it's funding for widening I-40 in Cary to 6-lanes. One proposal would include buidling the bridges for an 8-lane capacity so that the future cross-section could be allowed without having to do that work when the road is widened further (from 6 to 8 lanes), saving potentially millions of dollars.

[RaleighRob]

While I definitely think it needs 8, 6 is still better than 4 and we can't really wait much longer. Those bridge/overpasses will be the hard part...widening into the median shouldn't be so much (just so long as the additional stormwater is taken into account). As a plus, there should be few environmental issues for this project. (Which is rare in DOT land these days. )

From that same article...I find it funny they're repaving Wade from Edwards Mill to Faircloth....when it's the stretch from Faircloth to Capital that is the most desperate need for repaving. I can't count the number of potholes I dodge on that stretch each time I use it.

[ncwebguy]

I think the 8 lanes on the bridge/6 lanes on the dirt plan is the best. For around $3 million, it is getting all the work done at once, instead of going through all this again in 5-10 years. The 8 lane capacity isn't needed today, but will be eventually, as it will become the main artery to downtown Raleigh from north Cary and points west.

I drive/ride on the Wade Ave stretch every day, and they have been slow going. I haven't seen any asphalt down yet, even though the article says they started on Monday. Maybe they mean next monday, Oct 1? The stretch that needs it is hilly and hard to get equipment on. Didn't they resurface the stretch from Glenwood to Faircloth about 2-3 years ago?

[RaleighRob]

Didn't they resurface the stretch from Glenwood to Faircloth about 2-3 years ago?

Yeah...well, closer to 5 years I think...either way, it's already covered in cracks and potholes. That's how ridiculously over-used that road is. (And don't get me started on people flying down it at 55.)

While I am totally in favor of the Hillsborough Street project doing calming and traffic reduction over there, I certainly hope they point that traffic to Western Blvd....cuz Wade sure as heck can't handle any more!

[pack-man]

wade is already a nightmare at peak hours. the faircloth intersection is a disaster for signal timing. faircloth needs to have an additional left turn lane to help reduce the red time for wade ave. i haven't heard any plans of improving that intersection.

[RaleighRob]

wade is already a nightmare at peak hours. the faircloth intersection is a disaster for signal timing. faircloth needs to have an additional left turn lane to help reduce the red time for wade ave. i haven't heard any plans of improving that intersection.

It used to be worse...I remember when there was no left-turn signal at all.

[DPK]

Wade Avenue scares the hell out of me sometimes. I drive a big truck and am on Wade at least once a day (depending on traffic how I get to NCSU) and I take up the entire lane. Today I was in the left lane and a Suburban was coming at me in the left lane from the opposite direction. We both had an "oh crap" look on our face when we realized that if we didn't veer into our right lanes a bit we would have taken out each others mirrors. The lane size for a road like Wade that curves as much as it does is horrible.

And don't even get me started on trying to make a left onto Daniels during high traffic times where you can't see oncoming traffic because of the giant hill over at Oberlin Court bend.

[orulz]

Wade is a bit narrower and curvier than most suburban roads in Raleigh, yes, but IMO it's fine. I think the lanes are 10 feet wide - can somebody confirm this? That's plenty for a 35mph road. If you're not comfortable with it, or if you feel your car is too wide (even a Hummer is 8'5" mirror-to-mirror), just stick to the right lane where oncoming traffic is not a problem. Would you rather it looked like Brier Creek Parkway?

The only road around Raleigh where I'd really complain about lane width is Wake Forest Road north of 440. 7 lanes, 9 feet wide each, at 45mph, yikes... no Hummers please.

[DPK]

I make a right off Glenwood and then a left onto Daniels. I have to be in the left lane for that short of distance during rush hour.

I agree that Wade is fine for the most part. There's just certain sections that make me nervous sometimes, blind spots so to speak.

[RaleighRob]

Well it's pretty obvious most streets inside-the-beltline weren't meant for big trucks or suvs....they were designed with old-fashioned sedans in mind...and at lower speeds than most people today tend to go. (And don't get me started on those soccer moms in their Escalades and Suburbans trying to fit in those tiny Cameron Village parking spaces...LOL.)

I agree with Orulz, I like Wade the way it is for the most part. My only complaints thus far have been things the state/city could easily fix:

1- fresh asphalt, 2- better pedestrian crossings & finish the sidewalks where some are missing, and 3- enforce the speed limit!!!!

oh, and 4- if Hillsborough project proceeds, move the traffic to Western, not Wade...it's full enough.

On the upside, they've finally improved the signage with those "hanging" street signs from the stoplights. So now you actually know which intersection you're coming upon before you're actually in it!! Now if only they'd get the hint about putting them up at ALL streetlights in the city, especially downtown...wishful thinking?

[RaleighRob]

Oh dear...just saw this announcement: http://wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/1862695/

Looks like downtown Raleigh traffic this weekend is gonna be a royal pain in the butt. Harley Davidson Bike fest throughout the Fayetteville Street and Moore Square areas Fri and Sat. And a big foot race on the Hillsborough Street & Capital Grounds areas on Sunday. (And they don't even mention the crowds for NC Gay Pride weekend that'll be in the warehouse district on Fri and Sat nights.)

Yikes.

[Jones_]

Wade is funky becasue it was sort of forced into duty as a cross city street when original Wade was only a short neighborhood road. I posted a 1950ish topo a while back that shows original Wade as going only from Oberlin (it was part of the original Oberlin Village) to Dixie Trail, or maybe Faircloth. The winding part all the way to Capital was part of grand design in the late 50's and early 60's that got us things like Capital from Wake Forest Road to Downtown replacing Fairview Road, many of the bridges near downtown like Wilmington St, Mountford, Martin St (gone now), Peace/Capital and Glenwood/Wade. Also projects like the Ferndell Connector and the North South expressway, were proposed in the 70's as part of this. I think Wade was intended to be some sort of expressway based on the bridges at Glenwood and Oberlin but that was abandoned at some point. To me Wade resembles Wendover Ave in Greensboro to some degree.

[pack-man]

the problem in the future is that most eastbound traffic takes wade ave. to get downtown. it is the most direct route and quickest. as more demand for downtown becomes evident, wade will get worse. there aren't any improvements that could be made to wade except making it a RI/RO and that would only hurt the small cross streets. that corridor is posed for some serious problems in the future IMO.

[orulz]

I've found that the quickest route outside of rush hour by a reasonable margin is I-40 -> Saunders Street. Problem is, at rush hour, traffic on I-40 is so bad between Wade and 440/1/64 that it ceases to be the fastest route when it matters the most. Emphasizing this route (ie widening that stretch of 40!) and de-emphasizing Wade Avenue as a primary route into downtown, is the best way to avoid the doomsday you speak of.

[Jones_]

The Credit Union and its parking deck on Wade are in crappy shape. I think its ripe for redevelopment especially with everything going on accross the street. The CU has money to burn as evidenced by the many branches going up accross the State in a rather spacious setup. If/when the Wade Credit Union site gets a redo then Wade could be straightened substanially through the area with the shaving of some old Rex unused parking too. You might even be able to get a grass median in there for pedestrians to hide out on if you take enough land from old Rex and the CU.