Triangle road & traffic thread

[phoenixnc]

I agree Wade can be dangerous; I drive very slow on the curvy section.

Glenwood Avenue from Woman's Club Drive to Creedmoor (by Crabtree) is a mess. I drive there almost everyday, and there needs to be a better solution than endless stoplights and no sidewalks. I am sure there would be little pedestrian traffic from Crabtree to inside the beltline, but I saw a biker a few days ago and felt bad for them, stuck in traffic with no bike lanes or sidewalks. The intersection of Glenwood with both off-ramps from the beltline should be fixed. When these cars get the green, huge backups occur on Glenwood, and the lights are not syncronized.

Solutions- More limited access, less lights? Better syncronization? Different on-off ramp design?

[JeffC]

Glenwood Avenue from Woman's Club Drive to Creedmoor (by Crabtree) is a mess. I drive there almost everyday, and there needs to be a better solution than endless stoplights and no sidewalks. I am sure there would be little pedestrian traffic from Crabtree to inside the beltline, but I saw a biker a few days ago and felt bad for them, stuck in traffic with no bike lanes or sidewalks. The intersection of Glenwood with both off-ramps from the beltline should be fixed. When these cars get the green, huge backups occur on Glenwood, and the lights are not syncronized.

Solutions- More limited access, less lights? Better syncronization? Different on-off ramp design?

That interchange was completely redesigned 12-15 years ago (?). You can see where it used to be a full cloverleaf. Problem was that traffic from northbound 440 to westbound 70 was backing up all the way down the Beltline. If they wanted to spend a gazillion dollars and really fix something, they would turn the flyover to Ridge Road into a full interchange that featured a flyover going the other way over the Ridge, behind the hotel and dropping you in behind Crabtree valley...I won't be holding my breath on that one, though.

[ChiefJoJo]

The I-40 repaving job is underway. NO, not in Durham Co, but in Cary and south of DT. No word on any signage alterations.

Also, Raleigh is trying to get on I-540 from Garner to Knightdale. The resolution is for the state to consider doing an EIS to preserve the corridor from future development. Currently, there is no funding for the project. Here's the I-540 project webpage.

[RaleighRob]

^Boy they're thinking ahead. We're about a year away from even the start of construction on the next western leg of 540.

[JeffC]

Anyone else see this as a rather pointed threat to the political leaders in Southwestern Wake (like the mayor of Apex) that if they keep holding up their portion of 540 due to their opposition to tolls, the support of the Turnpike Authority and the other local leadership may shift to lower priority sections of 540 (like this southeastern leg) and end up with them being built first? The Garner mayor knows exactly what he's doing when he's quoted as supporting the tolls...the tolls would be paid by all those folks coming up from Johnston County, and his town would reap the benefits of reduced congestion on 40 and 70. Too bad the Apex mayor is out of touch with reality--the reality that tolls are the ONLY way that 540 gets extended through Apex and Holly Springs in the next 20 years...

[RaleighRob]

Anyone else see this as a rather pointed threat to the political leaders in Southwestern Wake (like the mayor of Apex) that if they keep holding up their portion of 540 due to their opposition to tolls, the support of the Turnpike Authority and the other local leadership may shift to lower priority sections of 540 (like this southeastern leg) and end up with them being built first?

That I doubt. The next leg of 540, from 55 to 64, has already been designed and planned and is currently in the permitting process with the environmental agencies. Last I heard they're basically on-schedule to start construction in late 2008. (Assuming they get that startup money from the state.)

This talk of the southeastern/eastern legs being worked on is really just Raleigh trying to plan ahead as far as I can tell. They wanna make sure the corridor is preserved from development and the early stages (environmental scoping, surveying, etc) is started as soon as possible.

[pack-man]

it would make sense for the SE end to be completed ASAP allowing drivers an alternative to the old I-40 route. This would hopefully remove some of the congestion along the beltline and Wade split.

[ncwebguy]

I-40 to I-40 via 540 is shorter via the southwest route than the northwest/northeast path. If 40 was east-west though the area, it would be the the same top or bottom, but since 40 goes southeast away from Raleigh, it will be shorter to go from Garner/Johnston County across to Apex and then up to RTP.

I think the southeast corridor should be preserved, but building any part of it in the next 5-10 years would be fueling auto-oriented sprawl "growth", would not be "meeting existing demand" , and would not "pay for itself" for decades. Though the same could be said for the SW leg, which is why tolls make sense for the whole southern half, if not the whole outer loop.

[ChiefJoJo]

Anyone else see this as a rather pointed threat to the political leaders in Southwestern Wake (like the mayor of Apex) that if they keep holding up their portion of 540 due to their opposition to tolls, the support of the Turnpike Authority and the other local leadership may shift to lower priority sections of 540 (like this southeastern leg) and end up with them being built first? The Garner mayor knows exactly what he's doing when he's quoted as supporting the tolls...the tolls would be paid by all those folks coming up from Johnston County, and his town would reap the benefits of reduced congestion on 40 and 70. Too bad the Apex mayor is out of touch with reality--the reality that tolls are the ONLY way that 540 gets extended through Apex and Holly Springs in the next 20 years...

Don't see that happening. For one, the entire CAMPO board voted already to toll NC540 (West Loop), and Apex was the only dissenter. The other mayors are smart enough to know this is the only way the road will be built in our lifetimes. Also, the planning for the south leg (Holly Springs to I-40) and SE leg (I-40 to US 64/264) haven't even begun yet. THe south leg is slightly more feasible, but the gap financing issue needs to be dealt with first.

The whole toll issue can be looked at different ways, but to turn the phony "double taxation" argument on it's head, one could argue that leaders are merely maximizing tax dollars by financing a $1B road at a quarter of it's cost... meaning the gap funds (that still need to be found) are being leveraged so that the users can fund the remaining ~70%. Unless something drastically changes with transportation financing, major multi-hundred million dollar new freeways in this state will all be built with tolls.

[ncwebguy]

It sounds like the post-Minnesota bridge collapse investigation of North Carolina's bridges, roads, and transportation is ready to start with a commission to study the issue.

The "how the state can stretch those [gas tax, federal funds] dollars further sounds like it could lead to gap funding for toll roads. They are looking at everything from bike paths to interstates, so maybe the rail corridors and mass transit will also be considered. I doubt they will look at how transit (road and rail) corridors increase the value of adjoining property at the taxpayers' expense, but anything is possible.

[ChiefJoJo]

NCDOT plans to widen I-40 in Cary beginning in 2010.

The four-mile stretch of I-40 in West Raleigh suffers from the Triangle's worst freeway congestion. It is the only four-lane section of I-40 between Orange and Johnston counties.

The DOT previously proposed to spend $60 million to make it eight lanes, but state officials had said they didn't have the money.

Wake County leaders suggested making it six lanes instead, hoping the lower cost would allow the work to begin. The DOT now says it will spend $38.6 million to build two new lanes each way where the wide, grassy median is now.

State and local engineers agree that I-40 will eventually need eight lanes. The DOT's planning and environmental study would account for that, and the existing bridges will be widened now to handle eight lanes in the future.

"That will add about $1.5 million to the project, but it's a whole lot more cost-effective to do that now," said Wally Bowman, a DOT engineer who oversees work in Wake and six other counties.

You can see some of the other projects here:

[DB78]

Not to be a party pooper, but that map doesn't exactly give a lot of hope. 2010 before another lane is started on the westbound 540 to 40 ramp?? I think we are all wishing it would have started yesterday. 7 years to have a small connector between 70 and 147? Just wow.

Hopefully by the time they start 6 lanes on 40 in Cary, they'll have enough funding to go to 8 lanes. Otherwise, it will not be any improvement from today.

[DPK]

2010?!! Where do all my taxes go in this state?? It's one lane! And it's a ramp!!!!!

Sorry, it's early and that annoys me. Lately all things traffic annoy me. Especially that one strip of Oberlin that has yet to be repaved because it's by the new Oberlin Court. They could at least fix the 50' wide pot holes until they put the final layer of asphalt down. I've nearly destroyed my alignment/suspension because of that road almost daily.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

2010?!! Where do all my taxes go in this state??

To other parts of the state! Money doesn't stay in the local area where it's taken. I wish they would re-do the process that determines where the monies go. Oh, well!

[RaleighRob]

I'm surprised the East End Connector is being delayed two years. I figured the RTP folks were really pushing that one hard for access needs to I-85. Goodness.

2010?!! Where do all my taxes go in this state?? It's one lane! And it's a ramp!!!!!

I assume you're talking about 540 at 40? Yeah that's nuts...I don't understand that one at all. Does anyone know how steep the slope is off the side of that ramp? That's the only thing I can think of that would make this project difficult to do.

Sorry, it's early and that annoys me. Lately all things traffic annoy me. Especially that one strip of Oberlin that has yet to be repaved because it's by the new Oberlin Court. They could at least fix the 50' wide pot holes until they put the final layer of asphalt down. I've nearly destroyed my alignment/suspension because of that road almost daily.

Heck yeah! That drives me insane too. They paved all of Oberlin except that little bit. Now, I understand it's due to the construction there...but why didn't they just wait till it was over before starting on Oberlin in the first place.

This one though I don't think is the state's fault...Oberlin is city-maintained I thought. (Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.) Big blunder for our city streets people if so.

As for widening 40 between wade and 440/1 in the grassy median...I have concerns that may be a more difficult project than it looks. Not only do they have to widen the flyovers over Wade for it...but I think that grassy median is where stormwater for the road is handled. If they pave it, that means they're going to have to install something else to handle the stormwater. So it could end up being more complex than just grading the ground and putting asphalt down.

[ChiefJoJo]

Not to be a party pooper, but that map doesn't exactly give a lot of hope. 2010 before another lane is started on the westbound 540 to 40 ramp?? I think we are all wishing it would have started yesterday. 7 years to have a small connector between 70 and 147? Just wow.

Hopefully by the time they start 6 lanes on 40 in Cary, they'll have enough funding to go to 8 lanes. Otherwise, it will not be any improvement from today.

I think the cost estimate for the EEC is around $200M, so it's not a little insignificant project to build... short in length, but 2 freeway interchanges and that means lots of pricey flyovers.

As for widening 40 between wade and 440/1 in the grassy median...I have concerns that may be a more difficult project than it looks. Not only do they have to widen the flyovers over Wade for it...but I think that grassy median is where stormwater for the road is handled. If they pave it, that means they're going to have to install something else to handle the stormwater. So it could end up being more complex than just grading the ground and putting asphalt down.

Shouldn't be too bad... I think its more of a funding delay than an engineering one, although I don't think it's been an official state priority yet, so there is still plenty of work to do for the project... the 40 over Wade bridges, and the bridges over 440/1/64 will all be for 4 lanes in ea direction (8 total), so at least that's good advanced planning. There should still be some greass median left even after the 2 additional lanes... it's very wide out there.

2010?!! Where do all my taxes go in this state?? It's one lane! And it's a ramp!!!!!

I've been trying to tell everyone for who will listen for the last ~2 yrs that the entire system is overprogrammed for the funds that are collected. Sure, there are some off-kilter priorities, but funds are scarce for all the needs. A bunch of Charlotte projects got delayed in this TIP. There will always, always, always be some level of subsidy of the rural areas by the urban counties like Meck, Wake, Guilford, etc, just like NC subsidizes Montana, Alaska, etc to some degree. Now you can start to see why we have toll roads on the horizon...

[Transplant]

I assume you're talking about 540 at 40? Yeah that's nuts...I don't understand that one at all. Does anyone know how steep the slope is off the side of that ramp? That's the only thing I can think of that would make this project difficult to do.

I don't buy this arguement. There is room on the left side of the ramp for an extra lane. *maybe* the breakdown lane would have to be reduced...But come on. This could be done in a long weekend.

[ncwebguy]

On Oberlin Road near Oberlin Court... I'm not going that way until its done. I'll keep using Daniels from Wade or Peace/Clark to get to Cameron Village until they're done.

While the EEC is delayed, at least this guarantees it will stay toll-free. Though I don't think it would be feasable as a toll road, since the available alternatives would siphon off too much potential toll revenue.

There is *no* mention of the status of gap funding for the Triangle Parkway (Durham Freeway extension) or SW 540, which were at one time going to be the state's first toll road. Did Apex's oppostion poison that well? The widened 55 and NC 540 should be enough to make things easy in that area for a while, but their expectations of a continued free ride is crazy to say the least.

It is good to see the New Falls bridge moved up. There is no reason to widen the existing bridge when it should be replaced by another, wider bridge in the corridor that can connect easily to US 1. The same can be said for the 540 WB to 40 WB lane. It is quite steep to the north, so either the breakdown lane needs to be ripped out and replaced with regular use asphalt, or they have a *lot* of dirt to move over there. They can't go the other way since the WB 40 to south/west bound 540 ramp is right next to it.

It does beg to ask where the Triangle's share of the state and federal money is going over the next few years. I'm probably missing some things, but here is what I can think of:

2007 and 2008: - widen NC 54 from Davis Drive to Miami, widen Davis from NC 54 south.

- Patch up/resurface I-40 through the south side of Raleigh.

- 70 bypass around Clayton

- 98 bypass in Wake Forest

2009

- New Falls of Neuse bridge

2010

- New Falls of Neuse bridge continued

- I-40 widening from Wade to 1/64

- 540 to 40 WB exit ramp

2011, 2012, 2013 - nothing?

2014 - East End Connector

I can understand the slowdown till 2010 due to the costs of recently completed projects -- East I-540 to US 64/Knightdale, West NC 540 to NC 55, and Durham's I-40 and I-85 widening projects. And we will need to maintain the existing road network.

The Triangle will pay a lot in state and federal gas taxes over the next six years (2008 through 2013), yet the slice left over from helping other needy parts of the states seems to be extra lean.

[DPK]

2011, 2012, 2013 - nothing?

Should be:

2011, 2012, 2013 - mismanaged and lining someone's pockets

[Cary NC]

I was reviewing the TIP for 2007-2015 and noticed that the state funds airport projects as well... What is this? I mean does the rinky dink airports really need $1M dollars to fix their airport that may get 10 planes a day. I just don't understand why the NC gov't is subdizing every county project out there. No wonder we don't have any money for projects in the big cities. It is going to my friends in Troy(pop.3400) and Cathrage (pop 1871) for their bypasses. Come on. Does Troy really need a bypass? Come on, Streets at Southpoint area employs more people than these two towns combined. There is so much waste on the wants by these small towns because they have to wait at the one and only stoplight in town. Who really makes these decision to build a bypass in these small towns when the metro areas are drowning in their smog?

Aviation program

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/TIP/TIP/aviation/

Troy and Cathrage Bypass

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/...div8changes.pdf

[DPK]

New updates in regard to 540, with the first possible new section opened by 2010:

http://wral.com/news/local/story/2042471

The North Carolina Turnpike Authority unanimously voted Wednesday to go to a no-stop system.

Also once again the 150 or so comments on the WRAL site are made by people who have no real understanding that without tolls, this road isn't going to get built any time soon. I really need to stop looking at those, they agitate me.

[RaleighRob]

...I just don't understand why the NC gov't is subdizing every county project out there. No wonder we don't have any money for projects in the big cities. It is going to my friends in Troy(pop.3400) and Cathrage (pop 1871) for their bypasses. Come on. Does Troy really need a bypass? Come on, Streets at Southpoint area employs more people than these two towns combined. There is so much waste on the wants by these small towns because they have to wait at the one and only stoplight in town. Who really makes these decision to build a bypass in these small towns when the metro areas are drowning in their smog?

Yeah, Meeker and some other urban leaders have been beating the drum on this issue for a while now, and unfortunately the state still doesn't get it.

I think North Carolina, being a state that historically has had few big cities, has a decentralized power problem. Lines for legislative districts (as well as the divisions that NCDOT is divided into) puts WAY too much power in the hands of rural areas (especially "down east") and not enough in the cities. NC's Legislature basically has three parties, not two: Republicans, Rural Democrats and Urban Democrats. The second of those currently is the one with the most power. But what they gotta realize is, if the Urban Dems start getting more aggressive and stop giving into whatever the Rural Dems want, then they'd lose that power.

But I'm about to digress into a political thread and I don't wanna do that. But suffice to say, as the cities grow in this state, transportation is the biggest area they've really got to get more aggressive in building their power.

Maybe the rural leaders will finally start to listen when they realize most of their residents commute to big cities for jobs...and if they can't get into those cities due to congestion, then it affects them too!

[DPK]

Don't know if this has already been posted here, but apparently some anti-540 groups are forming:

http://www.raleigh2.com/default.asp?sdetai...gh2&he=.com

On their website, the group has pointed out that indeed public funds were used to pay for the northern Raleigh portion of I-540 but drivers in the southern part of Wake County are being asked to pay an extra $1,040 a year to travel the same road.

Nobody is being asked to pay anything here. If you don't want to drive the road, don't drive it as if it didn't already exist. Continue driving your existing way to work and let everyone else pay for the convenience of the road because you're a cheapskate. Life isn't fair, sorry to crush your hopes and dreams.

[Jones_]

Don't know if this has already been posted here, but apparently some anti-540 groups are forming:

http://www.raleigh2.com/default.asp?sdetai...gh2&he=.com

Nobody is being asked to pay anything here. If you don't want to drive the road, don't drive it as if it didn't already exist. Continue driving your existing way to work and let everyone else pay for the convenience of the road because you're a cheapskate. Life isn't fair, sorry to crush your hopes and dreams.

And even more duh, is that 100,000 people lived in north Raleigh for 15 years before 540 came online...thats alot more money in the bank than Apex and Holly Springs 40,000 people have deposited in their 5 years.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

New updates in regard to 540, with the first possible new section opened by 2010:

http://wral.com/news/local/story/2042471

Also once again the 150 or so comments on the WRAL site are made by people who have no real understanding that without tolls, this road isn't going to get built any time soon. I really need to stop looking at those, they agitate me.

Where would that section terminate in 2010?