Triangle road & traffic thread

[Jones_]

Now the plan is to not only have tolls but to increase taxes to fill the gap in funding. This tax will either be an increase in the current gas tax and/or an increase in the automobile sales tax (3% to 6.75%).

The sales tax is huge especially on the used car market. The 3% was a big deal because now mom and pop can't just give their car to their kids without paying 3% of the assessed value....more than doubling that I think carries more focused angst than gas prices. Despite the funding "needs" I would limit this sales tax to new cars, or provide a same household exemption or something.

[ChiefJoJo]

Now the plan is to not only have tolls but to increase taxes to fill the gap in funding. This tax will either be an increase in the current gas tax and/or an increase in the automobile sales tax (3% to 6.75%).

I wouldn't say that is "the plan" quite yet. The Turnpike Authority and local backers are still trying to fight it out in the legislature for a source of recurring gap money... recall that it's not just a one-time $18M charge, it's $18M per year for at least 35 years. That's not chump change, so a significant source must be found.

I really think something like a TIF has a lot of merit, even if it would not cover the entire funding gap and would be seen as totally out of the box. With construction costs the way they are and funding sources flat, I time has come for innovative thinking.

[ncwebguy]

I know maintenance, the toll collecting solution, etc. is part of the price, but $18M x 35 years = $630 M (in 2007 dollars). How much do they expect in toll revenue? If this is just a "gap", I would guess at least that much, so the cost come to at least $1.26 B, if not more. TTA's train system could (possibly) be online for less.

The "gap coverage" seems to be a way of getting tax dollars outside of DOT's "equity financing" that sends the Triangle's gas tax receipts to build even less used roads elsewhere in the state. I understand its necessity, but think it might set a dangerous precedent for similar roads elsewhere.

How far is this section going to go? From the southern end of 147 to .... US 64? I-40?

That is a *lot* of money for a road that will serve a questionable number of people in 2010.

The TIF/impact fee wouldn't cover *all* of the gap, but would reduce it by a fair amount, and would be closer to getting growth to "pay for itself" quicker than the traditional 20+ years. Another plus for the TIF is that as the surrounding area grew, the tax base would increase, and the tolls could be removed years ahead of schedule.

[orulz]

The Triangle Parkway will extend NC 147 from its current terminus at T.W. Alexander, through the interchange at I-540, terminating at the intersection of Town Hall Drive and McCrimmon Parkway in Morrisville. It is only 3.4 miles long. According to the NC Turnpike Authority, the estimated cost is $105 - $225 million for initial construction. Is operating this road for 35 years really expected to cost $400 or $500 million? Something is fishy here.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Sorry if this has been discussed previously in this thread, but are there any plans to add overhead lights in the median along Interstate 40? Are they waiting til all the construction is finished, or is there another reason for not having the area lighted up? They finally put up the lights along 40 west here in Greensboro and it makes all the difference in the world.

Good luck with that. We in Charlotte have been trying in vain for YEARS to get the DOT to repair lights that are already in existence but burned out along our interstates. Miles and miles of them just keep going dark and the bill to replace/repair them just keeps getting higher with time and as more and more of them go out. Our interstates look like a 3rd world country at night and they're very dangerous.

[ncwebguy]

The Triangle Parkway will extend NC 147 from its current terminus at T.W. Alexander, through the interchange at I-540, terminating at the intersection of Town Hall Drive and McCrimmon Parkway in Morrisville. It is only 3.4 miles long. According to the NC Turnpike Authority, the estimated cost is $105 - $225 million for initial construction. Is operating this road for 35 years really expected to cost $400 or $500 million? Something is fishy here.

I think the project took the old Triangle Parkway and combined it with a longer chunk of 540, though I don't know how long the road they say could be built by 2010 would get to. I take the "end" of 147 to Alexander every morning, and the sharp curve will go away when the Parkway continues south. But I wonder if the Alexander road exit will be kept? An interchange at NC 54 would be too close to I-40, and the next cross road is Hopson.

In other news, the N&O reports that I-540 should be open to NC 55 by July 4th. But work on the project "end" 540 at Aviation Parkway for construction this weekend. After not doing much the last few months, crews better hope the weather cooperates, or they'll miss the deadline.

[orulz]

By widening NC55 and now Davis Drive, we have bought ourselves perhaps 5 years to "think about it" before traffic between Apex and RTP clogs up to the point where we'd need the Western Wake Expressway and Triangle Parkway. Right now NC55 still feels like a superhighway even at the peak of rush hour, and with Davis Drive due to be complete in a year or so that will only make things better.

To me, it seems like the section of I-540 between the NC147 (Triangle Parkway) and NC55 will complicate toll road operations significantly. It would have made more sense if the segment between NC147 and NC55 were part of the toll road too, making the entire road from I-40/NC147 south to I-540/NC55 in Holly Springs one contiguous toll road.

[pack-man]

this areas roads are headed for a major collapse in the next couple years.

[ChiefJoJo]

It would have made more sense if the segment between NC147 and NC55 were part of the toll road too, making the entire road from I-40/NC147 south to I-540/NC55 in Holly Springs one contiguous toll road.

That is precisely the plan. If it's built, you will be able to pay a toll to take a freeway link from Holly Springs up to RTP at 40/147. That was the whole point of the enabling legislation that allowed the portion of I-540 (U/C now) from the future Triangle Pkwy to NC 55 to be tolled--to allow the continuous 20+ miles (red, yellow, and blue segments on the map) to be built to RTP with tolls.

[thewhister]

I saw this on NC State's website today:

[url=http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/2007/june/110.htm]NC State Engineers

[pack-man]

that design looks pretty expensive. i could see this being used in California, but around here, i doubt it. anytime when you have a lot of elevated structures, you are talking big money. however, i applaud the design because it does what it intends to do.

[ChiefJoJo]

In the future, drivers might pay by the mile, instead of per gallon. Here's the story.

[architect77]

I wonder what the final cost will be for the "mixing bowl" interchange in Springfield,VA will be. I think it has almost 100 flyovers in order to "deposit" you where want to go.

Also I'm anxious to see pictures of Atlanta's new I-85/GA316 interchange in Gwinnett. It will have 17 flyovers.

[DPK]

I wonder what the final cost will be for the "mixing bowl" interchange in Springfield,VA will be. I think it has almost 100 flyovers in order to "deposit" you where want to go.

For those interested, here's what architecht77 is talking about:

http://www.springfieldinterchange.com/pdf/map.pdf

It's monstrous.

[Jones_]

For those interested, here's what architecht77 is talking about:

http://www.springfieldinterchange.com/pdf/map.pdf

It's monstrous.

24 lanes wide

[JeffC]

24 lanes wide

good Lord...I pray that's not in the Triangle's future, although it seems to be the wet dream of the anti-public transit pro-pavement crowd...

[architect77]

i was mistaken. only 50 bridges/flyovers...not 100.

apparently there are no alternate routes to avoid this interchange.

that's points out one advantage in NC.... with so many backroads-you always have alternative ways to reach your destination

[blburton]

The road is never 12 lanes/concrete barrier/12 lanes. All 24 lanes are combined in several different sets of 2 lane expressways which guide you to where you want to go. This includes the HOV lanes as well. The interchange is much more effective than the old design and traffic flows much better. It's still incomplete at this time, but the only problem I've experienced is the horrific traffic backups as a result of horrific sprawl in NoVA going south. The ramps are fun!

good Lord...I pray that's not in the Triangle's future, although it seems to be the wet dream of the anti-public transit pro-pavement crowd...

Any new word on I-540 completion on the west side??

[JeffC]

Any new word on I-540 completion on the west side??

All the signs are up, but covered with burlap. Last week they were putting down that final, thin top layer of asphalt that I understand is one of the last things they do. Supposed to be open to NC55 by July 4th.

[ncwebguy]

Driving by this morning, I noticed they had painted most/all of the new on/off ramps at the 40-540 interchange. 540's lane stripes looked to be painted when I drove over Slater mid-late last week. There have been preliminary markings for the 40-540 merge patter on 40 east, but that probably won't be done until right before it all opens.

This morning workers were smoothing the dirt between the grassy shoulder the new pavement east of the interchange on 40 East.

[tjoad]

N.C. among worst states for traffic woes

Ol' Mr. Hartgen from UNC-Charlotte back with another groundbreaking traffic study.

David T. Hartgen, the highway study's lead author, says the results show that states need to prioritize, directing their transportation money to projects specifically designed to reduce congestion.

"Gridlock isn't going away," Hartgen said.

You would think this would raise a red flag for the need for new transit options. But knowing him, his "need to prioritize" would be to build roads like there is no tomorrow, directing all money away from transit .

[seniorSOY]

Any new word on I-540 completion on the west side??

According to the NCDOT's website, they are supposed to finish from I-40 to Hwy 54 (chapel hill road) by the end of June 2007. Looks like they have about 44 hours to go.

[ChiefJoJo]

I just saw on the N&O that it is delayed until July 12. I hadn't realized they were opening it all the way to NC 55 though--guess that should help folks in Apex and Cary.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I just saw on the N&O that it is delayed until July 12. I hadn't realized they were opening it all the way to NC 55 though--guess that should help folks in Apex and Cary.

Just before they change it to a "toll road"!

[ncwebguy]

540 to 54 could have been opened a while ago, but they held back to not have a second opening to 55.

Now it is held back even longer, despite having next to no rain to hinder work. Will they face fines? Probably not. Deadlines were made to be broken, and DOT doesn't use a carrot (reward) or stick (punishment) to make deadlines mean anything. Crews are *still* adding pavement layers to 55 near the NC 54 and I-40 intersections, so we should be "thankful" for another delayed section of 540?

What is the status of funding for the Triangle Expressway? I haven't heard anything since "General Assembly not willing to provide gap funding." It went from first toll road in the state to nothing somewhat quickly. Things have been silent for the East End connector as well.

It is interesting that the "NC is a bad highway state" study didn't look into the "equity financing formula" and its creation of bottlenecks and misappropriation of funds to areas that had no congestion issues.