Triangle road & traffic thread

[JerseyBoy]

Will the TriEx be labeled with any sort of number signage (ex. NC 50)? It would be nice if it got some sort of special shield that represented the Triangle area.

[Atlside]

Here's a video link of the new NC 540. It's interesting that I-540 once is goes on the southside of Raleigh is called NC 540 because it will be run by the North Carolina Turnpike Authority as a toll road.

It's like the loop around Denver.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/video/1593391/

Part of Denver's loop is called 470 and the toll sides is called E-470

Interstate 470 was the name for the then proposed beltway around Denver which ultimately became C-470 and E-470.

Originally planned as Interstate 470 in the 1960s, the beltway project was attacked on environmental impact grounds and the interstate beltway was never built.

In the 1960s the Colorado Department of Transportation (CDOT) perceived a need for a beltway around the Denver Metro Area and sent a proposal to the Federal Highway Administration. The plan was for the federal government to provide 90% of funds for the project with the state providing the difference. I-470 was added to the Federal Highway Act of 1968 and was to be part of the Interstate Highway and Defense System. The Denver City Council approved the location and began engineering and environmental impact studies. After a few months the studies went under analysis with negative feedback. The Colorado Department of Health was opposed to the interstate beltway on the grounds that it would violate the Federal Clean Air Act. Other studies compared the proposed I-470 to the I-25 and I-225 freeways suggesting that alternate uses for the land (other than freeways) would be more environmentally friendly.

The portion of "Interstate 470" that was built as a state highway is the present-day C-470, which is a freeway for its entire length.

After the completion of C-470 in the southwest, desires for a full beltway persisted in some circles and plans for an extension were created. CDOT did not wish to participate in the building of the freeway extension and left the counties and cities of the metro area to provide funding for the project. The east, north, and northwest portions of the beltway could only be built as tollways.

E-470 is a 47-mile limited-access tollway traversing the eastern portion of the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area in Colorado. The toll road is not a Colorado state highway.

E-470 is the eastern portion of what was originally conceived as I-470, an outer beltway for metropolitan Denver. Plans for this eastern extension of Colorado State Highway 470 gained momentum in the 1980s, as Denver moved forward with plans for a new international airport in its corridor. Recognizing the highway's development potential, a number of local governments joined together to create the E-470 Public Highway Authority, a quasi-governmental entity that would construct the highway. The highway would be financed through tolls, a relative rarity in the western U.S.

E-470 also passes through the City and County of Denver near Denver International Airport.

The toll rate on E-470, roughly 18 cents per mile, is one of the highest rates of any toll road in the United States.

Proposed W-470

As of August 2003, CDOT made a compromise with the cities of Westminster, Arvada and Golden to do an environmental impact study, the first step in an attempt to complete the beltway by 2010. The last segment of the beltway would be another tollway, tentatively called W-470, and would connect the west end of the Northwest Parkway to the northwest end of C-470. Some observers estimate that W-470 is more likely to be completed in 2020 than in 2010.

Source: Wikipedia

North Carolina Turnpike

Length

Approximately 12.6 miles

Estimated Cost

Preliminary cost is estimated between $435 million and $780 million (April 2007 dollars). Final costs will be determined during design.

Timeline

Issue EIS Reevaluation Report Summer 2007

Award construction contract Fall/Winter 2007

Open to traffic Fall 2011

http://www.ncturnpike.org/projects/Western_Wake/

[RaleighRob]

Will the TriEx be labeled with any sort of number signage (ex. NC 50)? It would be nice if it got some sort of special shield that represented the Triangle area.

The "Triangle Expressway" actually describes two connected roads:

1- The tolled portion of I-540...er, NC 540. It will continue that 540 designation (in one form or another) until it's full-circle. (Which might come before I die? LOL)

2- The Triangle Parkway, which quite possibly may be signed as a continuation of NC 147. (Though don't quote me on that.)

[ncwebguy]

I think the I-540 to NC 540 "change" should happen at NC 54, not I-40, but that's just me... I guess it will be less confusing to I-40 travelers that north = interstate/shield and south = NC road/diamond.

On Saturday we drove to Chapel Hill and Durham with my wife's friend and her kids... 540 was not open at 4:45 pm from I-40, and the I-40 construction zone still had two lanes open westbound to the Chapel Hill NC 54 exit which made that a lot easier than I expected. On the way back, it was down to one lane there, and traffic backed up to about 751. 540 was *open* around 10 pm, and I wanted to drive on it but the wife wanted to get home. Tonight after work, I plan on taking Davis Drive south to the 540 interchange and taking that back to I-40.

NC 147 should be continued to 540, since it is easy/easier to toll state roads. I thought there was some drawings that had it crossing 540 and continuing into Morrsiville, but that may have been lost in the shuffle/dropped to focus on the western wake expressway/greenfield developer giveaway.

I don't know when 540 will ever be south of Raleigh. It *might* re-cross NC 55 in Apex by 2011, and that assumes gap spending is approved.

[Creasy336]

I would guess the section of 540 south of Raleigh would be tolled also (someone correct me if i'm wrong) this might limit the effects of the I-540 sprawl machine and give Raleigh a chance to densify. If I-540 were free on the south side, development would go out of control just as it is on Raleigh's north side.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think the I-540 to NC 540 "change" should happen at NC 54, not I-40, but that's just me... I guess it will be less confusing to I-40 travelers that north = interstate/shield and south = NC road/diamond.

Actually, they had to stop I-540 at I-40 because of another little-known rule: you can't end an interstate at a non-US route. That is why for several year until I-540 was complete over to US-1, it was actually signed "future" I-540 because of this rule. The "future" came off once it interchanged with US-1. It might seem silly, but I think it's to accomodate driver expectations that if they are on a major road and will be able to connect to another major road.

I would guess the section of 540 south of Raleigh would be tolled also (someone correct me if i'm wrong) this might limit the effects of the I-540 sprawl machine and give Raleigh a chance to densify. If I-540 were free on the south side development would go out of control just as it is on Raleigh's north side.

As it stand now, the only way to complete NC 540 is to build it with tolls, so that means the south side. You might be on to something about the sprawl limits. For one thing, tolls do limit the traffic volumes vs "free" roads, so a developer would not be able to claim as much traffic to his potential development as a result. It's an interesting question and I wonder if there has ever been a study done to analyze the impacts of a new toll road vs "free" road on adjacent development.

[RaleighRob]

NC 147 should be continued to 540, since it is easy/easier to toll state roads. I thought there was some drawings that had it crossing 540 and continuing into Morrsiville, but that may have been lost in the shuffle/dropped to focus on the western wake expressway/greenfield developer giveaway.

It will end at 540. The town of Morrisville had asked the Turnpike Authority to look into having it go to McKrimmon Pkwy....but they later decided the costs would be too high, plus the added environmental impact.

[Transplant]

This morning I took I 540 from north Raleigh to see how much the extension has helped. I will say that it has not helped at all. In fact, on the first day, I would say it is now more dangerous. I got in the exit lane 1.5 miles from the I40 exit and sat there for 5 minutes. At which time I said, screw it, and pulled out into traffic. Which is where I noticed the problem. Now there are 3 additional lanes for people to use before forcing their way into the exit lane at the last minute.

I proceded down to the next exit NC54 where there was no traffic. Got off the exit and followed 54 North to IBM. A bit out of the way, but pleasant.

The only way that area will become less of a bottle neck is for the west bound page rd exit on I 40 to close down. people who use this now will be forced to either go to the Miami Exit or take 540 to the next exit down.

Good job DOT! These people can't forcast traffic too well. Which is a problem since thats partly what they are paid for.

[pack-man]

waste of a road until it loops all the way around to I-40, so we are talking 20+ years if at all.

[DPK]

I would guess the section of 540 south of Raleigh would be tolled also (someone correct me if i'm wrong) this might limit the effects of the I-540 sprawl machine and give Raleigh a chance to densify. If I-540 were free on the south side development would go out of control just as it is on Raleigh's north side.

Great point of view. I've never thought about the aspect of a toll road being "sprawl control". Interesting.

[orulz]

The real problem is the I-540/I-40 interchange; specifically the "outer" I-540 to I-40W merge needs to be a two-lane ramp, and the offramp to Page Road needs to be braided, but several other movements are inadequate, too (no flyover from I-40W to "outer" I-540? Come on now...)

[ncwebguy]

I always wondered what the "future 540" signs meant. I thought, hmm, are we not in the future now that the road is here?

I was afraid they would put "future 640" signs in anticipation of completing the loop, but so far that doesn't look likely.

When I saw McKrimmon Parkway on the map, that made me think of the 147 extension going past I/NC-540.

It does leave Morrisville "unconnected", to points west, except via Davis and 54.

[Creasy336]

The real problem is the I-540/I-40 interchange; specifically the "outer" I-540 to I-40W merge needs to be a two-lane ramp, and the offramp to Page Road needs to be braided, but several other movements are inadequate, too (no flyover from I-40W to "outer" I-540? Come on now...)

I agree a loop instead of a flyover at this choke point will only hinder traffic movement further. I-40 2025, I don't even want to think about.

[architect77]

I agree a loop instead of a flyover at this choke point will only hinder traffic movement further. I-40 2025, I don't even want to think about.

while i too would like to see a flyover for southbound 540, i think i understand their logic:

since 540 loops back to raleigh, they probably anticipate that less people already heading out of raleigh (westbound 40) will be transitioning onto 540 that would return them to raleigh.

eastbound 40 motorists are highly likely to switch to 540's northern arc however.

flyovers probably are the single most expensive element of an interchange, therefore used only when necessary.

when 540 continues further south however, they'll probably add another flyover in the furture.

[JerseyBoy]

I wasn't aware of this until I was recently looking at Google Earth but I didn't know that the exit from outer I-540 to eastbound 40 had a ramp connecting to Slater Road. Also, has 540 been opened to Knightdale Bypass yet?

[Gard]

Also, has 540 been opened to Knightdale Bypass yet?

Yep, been open for a few months now.

[orulz]

I wasn't aware of this until I was recently looking at Google Earth but I didn't know that the exit from outer I-540 to eastbound 40 had a ramp connecting to Slater Road.

That ramp was removed after construction began on the extension of I-540 to NC55.

[orulz]

while i too would like to see a flyover for southbound 540, i think i understand their logic:

since 540 loops back to raleigh, they probably anticipate that less people already heading out of raleigh (westbound 40) will be transitioning onto 540 that would return them to raleigh.

eastbound 40 motorists are highly likely to switch to 540's northern arc however.

flyovers probably are the single most expensive element of an interchange, therefore used only when necessary.

when 540 continues further south however, they'll probably add another flyover in the furture.

You're right that perhaps a flyover isn't warranted by current traffic, but my worst complaint about it is the weave on I-40W between the cloverleafs. No collector/distributor, no extended ramps, just a 500-foot long weave, between two 65mph interstates. Riiiight.

The new extension of I-540 heads due southwest, while I-40 heads approximately west/northwest. As west Cary and south RTP develops (and it's happening at breakneck pace), 540 will become the de-facto route to get there from Raleigh. Considering how fast things are developing there, I predict it will be enough to overwhelm that stupid weave within 18 months.

I drove the new highway a little after rush hour yesterday. 40 was still crowded; 540 was almost empty. That, to me, proves that loop highways play only an extremely minor role in congestion reduction. Their real raison d'etre is to provide the framework for new development to happen. This highway will be only lightly used until more of the development in the pipe in northwest Cary comes online. The new 540 would be completely pointless had far northwest Cary not been zoned for medium-to-high density suburban development.

[ChiefJoJo]

You're right that perhaps a flyover isn't warranted by current traffic, but my worst complaint about it is the weave on I-40W between the cloverleafs. No collector/distributor, no extended ramps, just a 500-foot long weave, between two 65mph interstates. Riiiight.

The new extension of I-540 heads due southwest, while I-40 heads approximately west/northwest. As west Cary and south RTP develops (and it's happening at breakneck pace), 540 will become the de-facto route to get there from Raleigh. Considering how fast things are developing there, I predict it will be enough to overwhelm that stupid weave within 18 months.

I drove the new highway a little after rush hour yesterday. 40 was still crowded; 540 was almost empty. That, to me, proves that loop highways play only an extremely minor role in congestion reduction. Their real raison d'etre is to provide the framework for new development to happen. This highway will be only lightly used until more of the development in the pipe in northwest Cary comes online. The new 540 would be completely pointless had far northwest Cary not been zoned for medium-to-high density suburban development.

I know some folks who tried to get DOT upper-level mangers to consider adding a flyover there, but the project was too far along and it was denied because it would have delayed the project and ballooned the budget. What they've got is a "poor man's C/D" as it's called in the biz. If you notice, on I-40W there is another lane that opens up to the right in addition to the actual ramp lane. This is the so called poor man's collector-distributor, as it's not separated from traffic like a typical C/D. It's not perfect, but does provide a lane for traffic to merge/accelerate into the main flow of traffic. I'm afraid the chances of another flyover here are almost nill. People are going to have to live with it... probably the same thing with the need for braided ramps for Page Rd/40--not going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

People are complaining about the 540W to 40W ramps, but why don't they just skip the congestion and drive a little further on the new NC 540 and take Davis Dr or 54 west to the park? That's what I would do.

[orulz]

People are complaining about the 540W to 40W ramps, but why don't they just skip the congestion and drive a little further on the new NC 540 and take Davis Dr or 54 west to the park? That's what I would do.

The problem is, not everybody who was going from 540W to 40W is headed for south RTP. Many people from 540W are heading to Durham, Chapel Hill, or even northern RTP (IBM) and continuing further south on 540 would make no sense.

My guess is that the Poor Man's C/D lanes won't do the trick for very long. It will either be rolled in with Triangle Parkway, or else in the next 1 or 2 years, they'll start talking about taking money away from other projects to fund this improvement. My guess, it will find its way into the TIP, as a project funded for 2013 or sooner, within the next three years.

[Jones_]

I drove the new highway a little after rush hour yesterday. 40 was still crowded; 540 was almost empty. That, to me, proves that loop highways play only an extremely minor role in congestion reduction. Their real raison d'etre is to provide the framework for new development to happen.

And more than that a particular type of development that has significant lobbying support in all levels of government. We could provide framework for urban development in city cores or in proper form along predetermined routes outside the core, but there is not a lobby or otherwise political will to support that....

[kcdavis88]

Long time reader of the forum, but post rarely. I wanted to add my two cents here since I take the I-540 to I-40W route into RTP from west Raleigh (Duraleigh/Glenwood area) each day. Orulz is right. Many people are heading to IBM, RTI, Chapel Hill and otherwise points north. Although I usually don't care for the N&O's dumbed down coverage of issues that are talked about on this forum, the people they interviewed for the I-540 to I-40W ramp issue got it EXACTLY right. Before the highway opened, there were 2 exit lanes, one sent people to I-40W and the other sent cars to I-40E. Although not great (bad in fact) the exit was manageable. The ramp that led to I-40W is now basically the shoulder of the new universal ramp. This morning at 8AM, cars were getting in line at the collector lane for the Aviation Pkwy exit onto I-540. I've never seen that before. My bet is that some people may begin to actually use the shoulder (albeit illegally) of the I-540 to I40W ramp again as another exit ramp, basically restoring the status quo (which wasn't great to begin with).

From someone that makes this drive every day, I can confirm that the opening of I-540 made an already bad situation at that ramp WORSE. DOT's excuses are comical. Telling us that it will get better when we get used to it and that if we get in line for the ramp earlier is very lame.

Kevin

[ChiefJoJo]

From what I understand, the previous situation with the two 540WB to I-40 lanes was temporary as they used the existing paved shoulder as a defacto 2nd lane, when it's only designed for rare breakdowns. I believe the N&O reported the projects engineer's evalution that that pavement is or will soon fail if they don't fix it or stop the heavy use. Theoretically, adding NC 540 should have taken some of the Cisco and other S. RTP traffic from the 40/540 interchange and moved it to another exit, and I don't think that assumption was necessarily unreasonable.

The point of my statement was that I don't think people are utilzing the NC 540 extension or other routes when they could, even if it requires a bit more mileage. Anyone that wants to access Page Rd should take NC 540 to 54 to Page Rd--same for Davis Dr. Maybe they got it wrong, but I also think you can't judge it after only one day. Some drivers will pick other routes to work and perhaps reduce the # cars on that ramp.

IMO, if it doesn't work itself out, the best fix would be to add some additional pavement to create another lane for people to use on that exit. There has been so much complaining, you can bet someone will do something about it, and it wouldn't take too much to fix.

[orulz]

IMO, if it doesn't work itself out, the best fix would be to add some additional pavement to create another lane for people to use on that exit. There has been so much complaining, you can bet someone will do something about it, and it wouldn't take too much to fix.

That might work, but we might still see this problem that Transplant pointed out:

This morning I took I 540 from north Raleigh to see how much the extension has helped. I will say that it has not helped at all. In fact, on the first day, I would say it is now more dangerous. I got in the exit lane 1.5 miles from the I40 exit and sat there for 5 minutes. At which time I said, screw it, and pulled out into traffic. Which is where I noticed the problem. Now there are 3 additional lanes for people to use before forcing their way into the exit lane at the last minute.

A-holes who wait until the last minute to get in the lane causing further backups and congestion. Unless the additional lanes for the I-40 exit are made to branch off from mainline I-540 sooner somehow. I don't know the configuration of the lanes through there as I haven't driven it yet, but I doubt it can be stretched much further without causing a weaving conflict with Airport Blvd.

We'll have to see if the problem with a-holes waiting to the last minute is an enduring one, or if it will go away with time.

[ncwebguy]

The steep drop and water collector makes adding a lane on the west side of the off ramp expensive, and the WB 40 to WB 540 ramp gives them *no* room to play with on the east side. For some reason, this was part of the 40/540 interchange's design all along. For a fix, they need to improve the breakdown lane to handle a lot more traffic, or drastically alter the way WB 40 gets to WB 540 -- a flyover from the existing WB 40 to EB 540 or a left lane 40 exit.

If they restored the 540 SB to I-40 WB ramp's exit to Slater road, they could close the I-40 WB Page Road exit completely and get two lanes of WB 540 to merge with WB 40. WB 40 traffic can take WB 540 to the restored exit for Page south of 40, Miami Blvd to Chin Page to Page, or EB 540 to Aviation to Globe to Page.

Driving down Davis Drive last night around 6:30, there was several cars on Davis, but nothing close to "traffic". On NC 540, there were maybe a handful of cars. The Davis/Kit Creek 540 interchange is waaayyyy over the top, like something out of a sci-fi movie. All kinds of flyovers and multiple lanes for getting on and off. I'm sure Cisco is happy!

I know part of this is in anticipation of the Triangle Expressway intergration, but I don't know how that interchange got all the bells and whistles (as did Capitol Blvd) while 540/40 was done on the cheap.