Triangle road & traffic thread

[pack-man]

http://www.wral.com/traffic/story/1426968/

they must have heard us grumbling. At least an attempt is being made to remedy this problem...way to go Meeker

[ncwebguy]

Since the I-40 from Wade Ave to 1/64 widening is easy to do because there is a) no land to acquire b) no utilities to move c) a grassy median already in place d) no bridges to construct/rennovate (other than the 40/Wade interchange) why was this not done years ago? Other than the "equity distribution" that shortchanges the Triangle?

It will cost less than two years of "gap financing" for the Triangle Expressway (32 M vs. 18 M/year for Apex and West Cary) and fix a *current problem* vs. creating the future problem of sprawl in Western Wake and surrounding areas.

I-95 will be tolled eventually, probably right after the Parton Project comes on line in Roanoke Rapids. A better 95 will hopefully encourage development in the corridor and spread to neighboring counties.

[Transplant]

Since the I-40 from Wade Ave to 1/64 widening is easy to do because there is a) no land to acquire b) no utilities to move c) a grassy median already in place d) no bridges to construct/rennovate (other than the 40/Wade interchange) why was this not done years ago? Other than the "equity distribution" that shortchanges the Triangle?

It will cost less than two years of "gap financing" for the Triangle Expressway (32 M vs. 18 M/year for Apex and West Cary) and fix a *current problem* vs. creating the future problem of sprawl in Western Wake and surrounding areas.

I scratch my head every time I drive through that area. How in the hell that is still 2 lanes is beyond me. Widening in that area should be a breeze compared to adding the recent third lane.

I would also like to ask/complain about two relatively common DOT related issues in the triangle. Suggestions on who to officially complain to would be appreciated.

1) Coming off of Wade Avenue WestBound there are 4 lanes. About a mile up a 5th lane appears and the right most lane turns into an exit only lane. WHAT THE HELL? Why doesn't a right lane appear as the exit lane? This is extremely frustrating.

2) This is a safetly issue too. Many of our exits here in the triangle have two actual exit lanes. One is clearly labeled 'Exit Only' in Yellow and a nice Arrow. But the problem is when there is that Second lane that vehicles can use. There is no indication that a second lane is even available as an exit. When I was through Charlotte I noticed that they have signs that were a bit clearer.

[JerseyBoy]

It looks like the next stretch of 540 is getting ready to open soon:

Also, are they just going to resurface 40 or completely replace all the concrete? It was under my interpretation that they were going to put down all new concrete but I guess not judging by this photo I took while I was in the Triangle yesterday.

[Transplant]

It looks like the next stretch of 540 is getting ready to open soon:

Also, are they just going to resurface 40 or completely replace all the concrete? It was under my interpretation that they were going to put down all new concrete but I guess not judging by this photo I took while I was in the Triangle yesterday.

I540 has looked like that for a year. It should be opened up at the beginning of July.

I40 will not be resurfaced with concrete. DOT is using asphalt.

[CHGuy]

Also, are they just going to resurface 40 or completely replace all the concrete? It was under my interpretation that they were going to put down all new concrete but I guess not judging by this photo I took while I was in the Triangle yesterday.

They are replacing the 3" concrete overlay on the old lanes with asphalt. Then they are going to cover everything with a new layer of asphalt. When they are done, it will all be asphalt. A good waste of 14" of concrete.

[pack-man]

i get sick when i think of all the good concrete wasted. now we will have asphalt that will need to be replaced in 5-10 years unless they put it down wrong too. in that case, next summer will be another repaving.

[ChiefJoJo]

It looks like DOT will have to eat the I-40 mess instead of it having to be paid by local motorists, according to the N&O. All three budget proposals have this money being absorbed by DOT in either this or next years budgets. That's certainly good news, and a little bit of common sense shown by our state leaders.

The bad nes is apparently there is no money for gap funding for the Triangle Expressway (I540 & NC147 extension in RTP). If the state does not come up with $18M per year in gap funds, the road will have to wait a while.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here is an article about the US 1 corridor study in NE Raleigh, WF, and Youngsville. The preferred plan is to eventually build a freeway with HOV/bus lanes from I-540 to north of Youngsville. Here is the project webpage and some renderings:

[JerseyBoy]

Very nice!

Couldn't they recycle the concrete someway?

[ChiefJoJo]

It looks like DOT will have to eat the I-40 mess instead of it having to be paid by local motorists, according to the N&O. All three budget proposals have this money being absorbed by DOT in either this or next years budgets. That's certainly good news, and a little bit of common sense shown by our state leaders.

The bad news is apparently there is no money for gap funding for the Triangle Expressway (I540 & NC147 extension in RTP). If the state does not come up with $18M per year in gap funds, the road will have to wait a while.

Here's the WRAL coverage of the lack of toll funding in the state budget for 540.

[Transplant]

Chief, Thanks.

It would be nice if at some point Raleigh and the NCDOT would discuss upgrading Capital from I440-> I540 too.

[pack-man]

Chief, Thanks.

It would be nice if at some point Raleigh and the NCDOT would discuss upgrading Capital from I440-> I540 too.

they probably don't have a clue of how to do it.

[urbanaturalist]

Thats a good rendering. All they need are trains.

[urbanaturalist]

Chief thats a great rendering. Maybe THEY can add some trains to it in future. There is no reason geographically speaking that Wake County, all 700 some odd number of square miles, can't be the place where 2 million people rest their heads and vote and pay taxes. I'm just sayin.................Wake County is not JUST Raleigh, ........THUS.....there are a lot of municipalities that could yes, believe it or not, have the stability and earth shock absorbers to hold down or hold up a building taller than 25 stories of a material mixture (maybe in need of a sustainable building material makeover) that could reshape the skyline. The thing about density and taller buildings that come is that it may in some ways be a sort of "shock absorber" for sprawl and out of controlled growth across the county, and to be a BIG SHOT, and legislatively and unconsciously the whole state. If the Raleigh and Wake County, can ever start to be a litte more pro-active in comprehensive devlopment and for that matter conservative in the idea of protecting the rural areas from Superheros of Sprawl, then a tall building where it fits want be such a doozy on the mind of people and will really help protect an eagle or a fox or turtle or snail or just a nice tobacco barn in the middle of a field somewhere across the state.

Really though, the blue shaded "office" area is a good part of this. Nestled nicely between residential and commercial and a greenspace somewhere up there, as opposed to out smack in the middle of a vast gray car oriented parking Siberia. Where, OF COURSE, you have to drive there, now maybe somebody might walk to work in North Raleigh......lol.

[Mr Downtown]

Sorry if this has been discussed previously in this thread, but are there any plans to add overhead lights in the median along Interstate 40? Are they waiting til all the construction is finished, or is there another reason for not having the area lighted up? They finally put up the lights along 40 west here in Greensboro and it makes all the difference in the world.

[ncwebguy]

Incidents like this morning's fatal accident on I-40 West, just east of the Wade Ave interchange demonstrate the need to have multiple ways of getting around that area *and* the need for three lanes on the Wade to US 1/64 stretch.

I get on 40 at Wade, and noticed there was *no* vehicles on "through" 40 W, so knew something was going on. Onlooker traffic going east backed up a good mile or so to the Umstead bridge near Lake Crabtree. If 540 went to 40 near the Wake/Johnston county line, there would be a lot less traffic going through there, and/or they would not need to route traffic to Wade/Edwards Mill and then back.

Hopefully opening 540 to 55 this month (though it still doesn't look ready to me) will solve some problems, but the lack of gap funding will result in either higher tolls or push the road even further out. Is the denial of gap funding DOT's way of getting back at our region for having to pay for the I-40 concrete paving fiasco?

As for Capitol, would it be easier to make 401 to 540 wider, then route US 1 that way till 540, then back to its current alignment north of 540? I know there are some houses that have driveways onto Lousiburg Road, so that probably isn't a solution either. Is it quicker to stay on Captiol throug the Mini City and TTC area? All the land for a potential bypass on either side of Capitol has long been built into. Why weren't the access roads on Capitol from Wade Ave to Crabtree Road (Flea Marekt Mall and Hideaway BBQ) continued going north? That would have helped a lot. The roads near Wake Forest and the 98 bypass show how they do a good job of seperating "through" and "local" traffic. Hopefully some version of the US 1 corridor study can be implemented, as long as it is coupled with somewhat smart growth in northern Wake county *and* Franklin County. Continuing TTA north to Wake Forest could help as well.

[Gard]

As for Capitol, would it be easier to make 401 to 540 wider, then route US 1 that way till 540, then back to its current alignment north of 540? I know there are some houses that have driveways onto Lousiburg Road, so that probably isn't a solution either. Is it quicker to stay on Captiol throug the Mini City and TTC area? All the land for a potential bypass on either side of Capitol has long been built into. Why weren't the access roads on Capitol from Wade Ave to Crabtree Road (Flea Marekt Mall and Hideaway BBQ) continued going north? That would have helped a lot. The roads near Wake Forest and the 98 bypass show how they do a good job of seperating "through" and "local" traffic. Hopefully some version of the US 1 corridor study can be implemented, as long as it is coupled with somewhat smart growth in northern Wake county *and* Franklin County. Continuing TTA north to Wake Forest could help as well.

It wouldn't solve the problem. The traffic jams are North of 540, south of that everything flows pretty steady. Traffic starts to back up once you get to the 540 interchange. I travel that way almost daily and not a day goes by that I don't see an accident or two between Wake Forest and Raleigh on Capital. The problem with the area is it drops right down to 4 lanes. The traffic going north/south on Capital is too much for that segment to handle now, espeically with 540 generating even more traffic to Capital. Not only that, there is still alot of undeveloped land on that end of Captial, making it alot easier to expand the road.

Edit: for grammer.

[Jones_]

It wouldn't solve the problem. The traffic jams are North of 540, south of that everything flows pretty steady. Traffic starts to back up once you get to the 540 interchange. I travel that way almost daily and not a day goes by that I don't see an accident or two between Wake Forest and Raleigh on Capital. The problem with the area is it drops right down to 4 lanes. The traffic going north/south on Capital is too much for that segment to handle now, espeically with 540 generating even more traffic to Capital. Not only that, there is still alot of undeveloped land on that end of Captial, making it alot easier to expand the road.

Edit: for grammer.

I would say the jams begin at Burlington Mills and hit redline at Durant/Perry Creek. Those two lights removed would give you a clean shot from 1A to TTC (Gresham Lake). oh, Thorton too....

[ncwebguy]

If the lack of gap funding doesn't delay the Triangle Parkway/turnpike/expressway, land costs might. Land costs have gone from $52 million in 2002 to $233 million today. How did that happen? Why wasn't the land acquired years ago to preserve the corridor, even if the heavy equipement wouldn't be out there for years? Would the land be worth that much if 540 never was planned to go that way?

Now it looks like tolls and $18 million a year for 30 years won't be enough to build the road. Development has no chance to "pay for itself" with these numbers being thrown around. Of course the "you owe us this road, and it should be toll-free" chants will build up even more now. Will property values drop when all those cars are going to be stuck in traffic on 55? This would have never happened if "free" roads and parking were paid for by user fees.

[ChiefJoJo]

Hopefully opening 540 to 55 this month (though it still doesn't look ready to me) will solve some problems, but the lack of gap funding will result in either higher tolls or push the road even further out. Is the denial of gap funding DOT's way of getting back at our region for having to pay for the I-40 concrete paving fiasco?

If the lack of gap funding doesn't delay the Triangle Parkway/turnpike/expressway, land costs might. Land costs have gone from $52 million in 2002 to $233 million today. How did that happen? Why wasn't the land acquired years ago to preserve the corridor, even if the heavy equipement wouldn't be out there for years? Would the land be worth that much if 540 never was planned to go that way?

NCDOT can't try to get back at the area for the paving fiasco. The General Assembly and Governor have oversight and have decided, according to the current House & Senate budgets, that the money for the I-40 paving will come out of the DOT's admin budget.

The corridor was preserved by Wake County, Cary, and Apex through good land use planning... until the road is funded in the TIP, the state can't actually acquire the land, so that's why the costs are so much higher now. Yet another reason why road building ain't what it used to be, and that we should be looking at transit corridors in the near future... substatial upfront cost, but minimal right-of-way width compared to roads, and once built, easily and cheaply expanded.

[sax184]

Land costs have gone from $52 million in 2002 to $233 million today.

Wow! That's huge! I bet a public watchdog group concerned with the careful spending of taxpayer funds, like, say, the John Locke Foundation will come out and strongly condemn the escalating costs of this large public project which will certainly never have its direct operating costs paid for by its users!

Oh, wait-- it's a ROAD, they could care less.

[ncwebguy]

I know the General Assembly has legislated that the repair $ won't come from the region's allotment, but there are plenty of other ways to skin a cat. Delaying 540's opening south of 40 made sense when they wanted to combine the NC 54 and NC 55 legs into one opening, but the amout of work done, at least visible from I-40 and Slater Road, is minimal to non-existant since it was determined that DOT's administration budget would have to eat the costs.

If the corridor was preserved via planning, i.e. it wouldn't be buildable, then why has the price gone up? I understand the state couldn't acquire the land until funding comes through, but why has the market value of undevelopable land quadrupled in 5 years? I would understand the land near *exits* going up in value, but not the road itself. Why can't a TIF on the increased value of the land nearby and/or an impact fee help pay for the road instead of the tolls? Oh yeah, Big Development says that's not fair, and governments have been sold on development=jobs so land owners and develoeprs get welfare handouts.

With these numbers for land acquisition, how does that affect transit vs. highway in cost per mile, etc.? It isn't going to get cheaper.

It will be interesting to see if "fiscal conservatives" will start to lobby against 540 due to a spiraling budget, low useage, etc. When will Elizabeth Dole and Richard Burr tell the good folks in Apex that the project isn't worth the federal highway dollars? Oh who am I kidding? They'll flip flop till the cows come home when it comes to building another road. Roads = freedom and everything that America stands for. Think of how much more $3 (or $4+)/gal gas can be sold to the people using this road!

Why are a lot of the people concerned about building roads for the masses of people moving to the area the same ones who are against mass transit?

[ChiefJoJo]

I really don't think NCDOT is trying to delay the 540 project to "get even" with the legislature. I think the various DOT Board members decided they weren't going to take the fall for the mistake in their areas, so they left it up to the higher-ups in the legislature to make the decision for them.

When I said through land use planning, I didn't necessarily mean that it was down-zoned or preserved through conservation easements (I really don't know how the land is zoned). I meant that they did not allow development in that path via local ordinance protecting the corridor. I suppose in negotiations, the landowners could argue (in court, if necessary) that the value of the land should equal the opportunity cost of not being able to build a subdivision or strip-mall or something of that sort. That could easily account for a sharp rise in land value, as we all know, this area is booming with development potential.

TIF? I agree with you 100%. That is what TTA is probably going to have to do to get the rail project going, why not TIF as a gap funding tool for roads? After all, we're giving land owners left near the interchanges a huge windfall for free, since they'll now have 15 minute driving access from RTP. A TIF would sure be out of the box thinking. It's ingrained in people in this country to think that roads are as American as apple pie while transit funding gets second-class treatment.

[DanRNC]

Now the plan is to not only have tolls but to increase taxes to fill the gap in funding. This tax will either be an increase in the current gas tax and/or an increase in the automobile sales tax (3% to 6.75%).