Triangle road & traffic thread

[cityboi]

here is a cool freeway video from Durham to Greensboro

http://www.youtubeniz.com/video/o_4EtnQ0RX...-Freeways-Video

[DPK]

"When NC Rebuilds A Freeway They Do It Right!" at 3:11.

Yeah, sure. Cool video none the less.

[orulz]

"When NC Rebuilds A Freeway They Do It Right!" at 3:11.

Yeah, sure. Cool video none the less.

Well, credit to NCDOT: they DID do I-85 through N. Durham right (maybe even a little overbuilt, considering how much traffic the EEC will remove from that section of highway by providing a parallel route)

[DPK]

Valid point about the EEC.

[JeffC]

Re Wade Avenue: I wonder if putting an interchange in at St. Mary's/Wade is on some long term plan... I've often wondered why the big grassy strip along Wade on the Northeast corner of that intersection. Of course the other three corners have zippo space. The Peace/Capital bridge is due for replacement in the next few years...that's going to create a heck of a bottleneck, even if they do it one side at a time like the Glenwood/Wade bridge replacement...

[Creasy336]

Now if they would just do that section near the Yadkin River and through Caburrus County...

[Jones_]

Re Wade Avenue: I wonder if putting an interchange in at St. Mary's/Wade is on some long term plan... I've often wondered why the big grassy strip along Wade on the Northeast corner of that intersection. Of course the other three corners have zippo space. The Peace/Capital bridge is due for replacement in the next few years...that's going to create a heck of a bottleneck, even if they do it one side at a time like the Glenwood/Wade bridge replacement...

I always wondered that too...my bet is that Cameron Village condos were built (certainly Bishops Park/Washington Square etc were) about the time the City gave up on Wade being a true expressway at least along that section, assuming that was the plan which it does seem like it was....

[RaleighRob]

Oh dear...just saw this announcement: http://wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/1862695/

Looks like downtown Raleigh traffic this weekend is gonna be a royal pain in the butt. Harley Davidson Bike fest throughout the Fayetteville Street and Moore Square areas Fri and Sat. And a big foot race on the Hillsborough Street & Capital Grounds areas on Sunday. (And they don't even mention the crowds for NC Gay Pride weekend that'll be in the warehouse district on Fri and Sat nights.)

Yikes.

Oh, and on top of all that, the new Exploris/Playspace Museum Combo will be having it's grand opening party. This should be interesting.

[cophead567]

tons of activity.....i love it

[DPK]

It's really too bad the city gave up on Wade being an expressway. It would be the optimum route for getting from 40 to downtown really quick.

[Jones_]

It's really too bad the city gave up on Wade being an expressway. It would be the optimum route for getting from 40 to downtown really quick.

all the neighborhoods between Oberlin and Faircloth were at least under development. Plus at that stage 40 was not even a thought. I am thinking it started as a way to get white flight suburbanites from NW raleigh, meaning what is now ITB NW to get into downtown for work and back out with Cameron Village being the shopping area of choice for that crowd. It was an enabler kind of how 540 is functioning now but on a smaller scale...the pump was primed nonetheless....

This page, post #55 has the 1951 topo of Raleigh I uploaded a while ago. I see clearly Cole Street at Glenwood (its dirt) where Wade will go underneath. It also appears that Daniels St wraps around in Front of old Rex...Wade eventually takes this alignment...it also looks like a whole neighborhood was demolished for the Wade/Oberlin interchange evidenced by the dirt square of streets just west of the Williamson/Daniels connection..there is a small piece of Wade parallel to Grant extending west from Oberlin, then another piece extending from the SE prong of Beaverdam (the part that washed out during Fran) to Brooks, then an out of alignment piece from Brooks to Dixie Trail. Thats it based on what I can tell as of 1951. Sorry for the lengthy historical aside...at least its road/traffic related to a degree.

[DPK]

Sorry for the lengthy historical aside...at least its road/traffic related to a degree.

I found it quite interesting; I'm a huge historical fan when it comes to this stuff. Keep it coming.

[orulz]

There was an article about Wade Avenue not too long ago that someone on this forum pointed out. It mentioned that when it was originally built, there was a really sharp curve on its route that officials were very unhappy about, but was later straightened out. I kind of wondered where this was, but looking at google maps I came up with a theory: the Wade / Oberlin interchange. Could it be that Wade was originally constructed with an at-grade intersection with Oberlin, along the alignment now signed as Annapolis Drive? As traffic increased an overpass become necessary, and the previous alignment of Wade Avenue became the on/offramps for WB Wade. This construction would have eliminated the sharp curve in the process.

Does this sound reasonable, Jones133?

[ncwebguy]

When I lived near Cameron Village, some people kept mentioning that Wade Avenue destroyed the old Oberlin Village (including the Latta House/University, built by former slaves in a similar fashion to how the Durham Freeway ripped through Hayti in Durham.

Lions Park (and the public housing to its south) seem to be a way to attone for the land engulfing 3/4 cloverleaf at Wade/Oberlin. The land north of the interchange became high dollar, leaving the land south of there to languish. It eventually attracted office space on Oberlin and the nearby neighborhood was "rediscovered" in the early/mid 90s.

If Wade followed Annapolis, it wouldn't have to be that sharp, but it would have been a curve similar to the one at Daniels to the east. I guess Oberlin was fixed because it continued north whereas Daniels Street ended at Wade/Rex hospital.

[Jones_]

There was an article about Wade Avenue not too long ago that someone on this forum pointed out. It mentioned that when it was originally built, there was a really sharp curve on its route that officials were very unhappy about, but was later straightened out. I kind of wondered where this was, but looking at google maps I came up with a theory: the Wade / Oberlin interchange. Could it be that Wade was originally constructed with an at-grade intersection with Oberlin, along the alignment now signed as Annapolis Drive? As traffic increased an overpass become necessary, and the previous alignment of Wade Avenue became the on/offramps for WB Wade. This construction would have eliminated the sharp curve in the process.

Does this sound reasonable, Jones133?

I remember that article...it was about putting in a turn lane associated with Oberlin Court and the Occidental building rehab...the curve in question really did not get smoothed out much at all imo. As far as the original Wade alignment.....the very first part of Wade was part of a planned part of the Freedmans Oberlin village area. A square bounded by Wade, Grant, Chester and Baez are that area though at least one street name has since changed (don't remember which one). There is an exit ramp lined up with Annapolis that corresponds with part of this original Wade. It is striped double yellow though the (what would be) eastbound side has no access at all further reminder of its vestige use. Annapolis lines up with this so well that I bet it was originally an at grade crossing. However based on what I said above I don't think this was the, another or otherwise had anything additional to do with the sharp curve. The look of the bridge is 1970's to me though I have not looked for the plaque and Jojo or others likely can date bridges better than me.

[DPK]

Has anyone else thought about how the Hillsborough Street project's goal is to push traffic onto Wade and Western Blvd? Think about all of that Hillsborough traffic being added to the existing traffic on Wade and Western. I really think that after all this Hillsborough Street stuff is said and done, they're going to have to deal with Wade Avenue.

This is of course assuming that Hillsborugh does become a "pedestrian friendly" environment.

[pack-man]

wade is going to need some serious work. traffic signals need to be upgraded first. beyond that, it is pretty much hopeless. this is by far the best way to access downtown from RTP/Durham/airport. it looks pretty bad for people coming in from out of town to access downtown via a neighborhood road.

[orulz]

wade is going to need some serious work. traffic signals need to be upgraded first. beyond that, it is pretty much hopeless. this is by far the best way to access downtown from RTP/Durham/airport. it looks pretty bad for people coming in from out of town to access downtown via a neighborhood road.

Again, Wade really ISN'T the best way to get to downtown from points west. It looks the fastest on a map because it's a "straight shot", but thanks to Wade's curviness, stoplights, and 35mph speed limits, it's actually not that fast. I suppose your results may vary depending on where in downtown you're heading, but in my experience, I-40 -> South Saunders wins over Wade -> Capital by a margin of 2 or 3 minutes.

If only they could resolve the I-40 bottleneck between Wade and 440.

[ChiefJoJo]

The look of the bridge is 1970's to me though I have not looked for the plaque and Jojo or others likely can date bridges better than me.

My guess would be late 60s/early70s.

I really think that after all this Hillsborough Street stuff is said and done, they're going to have to deal with Wade Avenue.

If only they could resolve the I-40 bottleneck between Wade and 440.

CAMPO is hoping to advance the I-40 widening project... IIRC it could be 2-3 years from starting for a 6-lane widening. That would certainly help the situation with Wade/40. I don't think there is anything you can do with Wade Ave at this point. There's no room to widen or even add a center turn lane. I mostly use Western Blvd if I'm headed due west or SW... also you can use Peace/Clark Ave to Faircloth to Wade... sometimes I go through that way, as once you get through Cameron Village, it's free of traffic lights... you just have to drive slow through the neighborhoods.

This is why we need a more robust bus system and plan for rail... most every road in or near the city is built out--going in to widen these roads is not an option, and frankly, the new capacity would get filled up in no time. Carpooling, telecommuting, staggered hours, transit, biking and walking will be a necessity in our future folks. There's even a new TV show starting about carpooling.

[DPK]

Again, Wade really ISN'T the best way to get to downtown from points west.

This is true, I never said it currently was. I did allude that it could possibly be faster in the future, but there still is a heavy amount of traffic flow on it every day during rush hour. Imagine the current flow doubled in about 10-20 years -- nightmare.

[Jones_]

This is true, I never said it currently was. I did allude that it could possibly be faster in the future, but there still is a heavy amount of traffic flow on it every day during rush hour. Imagine the current flow doubled in about 10-20 years -- nightmare.

That flow only doubles if the commute pattern dictates that right? So as jobs are added downtown you have to add housing options downtown...or do not over build downtown, i.e. no 60 story skyscrapers without mass transit in place. In the other direction, ITB residents who commute to the Park, transit to the Park is essential before things densify at all out there in anyway...not sure what covenants there could restrict that though. I drive Wade a fair amount at rush hour and it really is nothing compared to say Capital Blvd at rush hour. It slows down at St Marys and at Faircloth for an hour or so but thats about it. I don't really see building patterns that are putting alot more traffic on Wade imho. My thoughts are the same for Hillsborough St actually. In addition to Capital, the streets in Raleigh that are taking the most increase in traffic are Falls of Neuse, Leadmine, Lake Wheeler etc...two lane buggaboos with lots of new construction on them that follow home to work commute patterns. Wade and Hillsborough both connect two employment centers but do not follow the biggest drive patterns for the residnets trying to get there relative to these other roads.....I don't have traffic counts but this based on having to have driven all these at rush hour for various reasons throughout the year...and again just thoughts...not trying to argue at all...

[ncwebguy]

As a downtown to RTP commuter, here are my options/preferences:

1. A mass transit option that doesn't get stuck in normal traffic. The TTA's rail configuration is the best option for that. The bus is ok, but it is hard to justify doubliing my commute time while paying about the same in fare vs. gas.

2. 40/440. Unfortuately, the four lane bottleneck makes this not an option even if I timeshift to a 9:30-5:30 schedule. A 10-6 schedule still results in a stop and go rut from the Cary Town Cetner exit to the Wade Ave merge in the morning and slowdowns the other way while going home. This leads to

3. Capitol Blvd -> Wade Ave. There are a few traffic lights, but there are traffic lights to get to 440 south of town as well. The slower speed limit and occasional stopping are nothing compared to the morning crawl from 1/64 to the Wade Ave merge.

I'd like to work downtown, but no one wants to hire me that I know of. If the six lane widening helps enough, I'll go that without hesitation. It would be nice if the Person/Blount corridor south of MLK was improved with sidewalks and a streetscape so people don't just wander in the road, but that will unfortunately never happen. The sidewalk on the east side of Shaw's campus is a good start, but should not be the end.

I don't think doubling downtown's population plus Hillsborough Street calming will lead to a doubling of Wade Ave traffic *if* the 40 bottleneck is fixed. I still think the Hillsborough Street calming won't have a dramatic effect, since a lot of traffic that goes that way will continue to have to go there to get to campus.

I am *very* thankful I don't need to use Six Forks, Wake Forest/Falls of Neuse, or Capitol (especially north of 540) during the rush hours!

I saw some of the "Carpoolers" show last night, but couldn't watch the whole half hour. It was upper middle class guys forced into a bad "Sex and the Suburbs" vibe. Carpooling to RTP is difficult at best since there is no central place to park, no parking or road benefit vs. single occupant travel, and the difficulty in coordinating enough schedules to make it worthwhile. I guess it is a good attempt to get carpooling into the TV nation's noggin, but it doesn't look like it will last long enough to have a positive effect.

[RaleighRob]

Again, Wade really ISN'T the best way to get to downtown from points west. It looks the fastest on a map because it's a "straight shot", but thanks to Wade's curviness, stoplights, and 35mph speed limits, it's actually not that fast. I suppose your results may vary depending on where in downtown you're heading, but in my experience, I-40 -> South Saunders wins over Wade -> Capital by a margin of 2 or 3 minutes.

If only they could resolve the I-40 bottleneck between Wade and 440.

Wait...you've actually seen someone on ITB Wade go 35?? I don't think I've hardly ever seen anyone on it go less than 45!

As for the stoplights, sadly I've seen more than a few accidents due to people running them...Canterbury's the worst for some reason...probably people not expecting it so soon after Brooks.

Yeah...If CAMPO does get their way and I-40 gets widened between Wade and 440/1 then that would help matters a lot!

My biggest worry is with the proposed traffic calming work on Hillsborough that some of the traffic will come onto Wade...that would be disastrous. The city claims most of it will go onto Western and I pray they're right! Western can handle it better and much of it still has room to be widened even more, if need be. (Why only parts of it are six lanes and other parts are four is beyond me...personally I think it oughta be six lanes minimum from Pullen to Blue Ridge, no exceptions.) Also, if the traffic engineers would get those stoplights timed better, it certainly can take the traffic off Hillsborough....and at a higher speed limit. As it is now, though, there is a good deal of stop & go on Western cuz the stoplights seem to be totally random.

[orulz]

I absolutely see people go 35 on Wade Avenue for the curvy section between Oberlin and Glenwood. I find it quite scary, in fact, to drive much more than 35 there due to the curves.

[pack-man]

i drive that road everyday and I'm constantly thinking to myself how bad guardrails are needed there before a very serious accident occurs.