Triangle road & traffic thread

[orulz]

I think there was freeway loop road planned as an extension of Aviation Parkway. This was since scaled back into the "Eno Drive" plan which would build a new surface arterial instead of a freeway.

Even the surface road "Eno Drive" has been put into question as the EEC is now considered eligible for loop funds and is (presumably) being prioritized.

Somebody with more knowledge on the subject could elaborate...

[pack-man]

i thought the eno loop was dead

[DPK]

Raleigh is to supposedly have the entire traffic signal network upgraded by 2011:

http://www.newsobserver.com/248/story/938586.html

[ncwebguy]

The EPA is "bothered" by the proposed Triangle Parkway. They built the daycare center a few years ago next to land they knew was reserved for this project. It is funny that they want to "think about the children" in regards to the road, but were OK with putting it next to one of the largest surface parking lots on campus. Why the environmental scientists chose that site over plenty of alternatives elsewhere on campus for the day care is beyond me. It now looks like they put it there deliberatly to stop the road.

It now has a projected 2011 opening date, assuming it gets the needed gap funding from the General Assembly.

[ChiefJoJo]

The EPA is "bothered" by the proposed Triangle Parkway. They built the daycare center a few years ago next to land they knew was reserved for this project. It is funny that they want to "think about the children" in regards to the road, but were OK with putting it next to one of the largest surface parking lots on campus. Why the environmental scientists chose that site over plenty of alternatives elsewhere on campus for the day care is beyond me. It now looks like they put it there deliberatly to stop the road.

It now has a projected 2011 opening date, assuming it gets the needed gap funding from the General Assembly.

Agreed. The EPA campus was only built a few years ago and the planners at EPA knew this road was coming eventually, and unfortunately, they apparently sited the daycare in the worst possible location. I believe the RTF or DOT had dedicated the property along the corridor many years ago and they were waiting for the project to move forward when funding would be received.

Looks like the turnpike Authority is having meetings today with deign-build teams, and the schedule says they will award a bid by mid-June.

[ChiefJoJo]

I was just there yesterday at 15/501 & Europa and it looks like this project is under construction.

... from this:

to this:

Looks like the 15/501 superstreet at Europa is essentially open according to the N&O. Anybody use the superstreet yet? It sounds like it's confusing for some drivers now, but that's to be expected. Remeber when the single point interchanges opened at Six Forks/540 & Fayetteville Rd/I-40? People were confused, and complained, but drivers quickly learned the patterns--same with roundabouts. This is something you will see a lot more of in the future, as it is a low cost alternative to full fledged expressway conversions that keeps traffic moving along the main highway.

[Jones_]

I am trying to wrap my head around this concept....I clearly see more traffic lights....is this a case of...whoops, too many cars for one intersection, so we'll just spread them out over two widely spaced intersections?

[swimmer8866]

They also have a text story on the loops as well.

I don't know if it is good or bad that we don't have four lane loops around all the major cities by now. Not all of them would be clogged like South Charlotte, but they would accelerate sprawl and be difficult to expand. This is the legacy of govenor Jim Martin, who put good roads above good schools in the late 80s. I remember a lot of political cartoons showing how easy it would be to build all the roads since school funding was dismal, creating thousands of undereducated tarheels ready to lay asphalt. Yet the Republican candidates for govenor are now blaming Democrats for their own party's underfunding and aversion to planning.

showing how easy it would be to build all the roads since school funding was dismal, creating thousands of undereducated tarheels ready to lay asphalt.

Oh great comment here, but at least they would have a good paying manuel labor job and be paying taxes.

[ChiefJoJo]

I am trying to wrap my head around this concept....I clearly see more traffic lights....is this a case of...whoops, too many cars for one intersection, so we'll just spread them out over two widely spaced intersections?

More signals overall--yes--but also more green time for the main road, in this case 15/501. The problem of a convention signal is created by having to allow enough time to the side streets for left turns and thru moves... every second you allow more there takes away green time from the main road.

In this case, the minor move, Europa-Erwin (blue and red lines on the diagram), cannot make a left turn or go straight... all moves are right turns plus U-turns for those drivers, which reduces points of conflict created by left turns (safer), and enables the signals to stay green longer for 15/501 traffic since there is only a single phase for the signals to only allow right turns. The net effect is much better thruput on 15/501 at the expense of perhaps a bit more delay for the side street traffic (but not much).

[ncwebguy]

Yes, more *signals* but fewer cycles, assuming the four lights are on the same signal. This just takes the old patter of stopping through 15-501 traffic for Erwin/Eurpoa and extends it to the ends of the endpoints of the center island. The former Erwin/Europa left *and* straight traffic can go at the same time, instead of left, then straight. Also they become right turns that can queue up at the island endpoints. If those endpoints were "yield on red", those moves could get through the intersection "quicker".

As for "four lane loops would create jobs and taxes", that is true *while* the loops were built. But what jobs did those projects "create"? To cut costs, most/all low-bid contracts hired immgrant workers instead of local, laid off from the shuttered factory workers. "Job creation" was more of a smoke screen than economic engine. And a fair chuck of those salaries were not recycled in the local economy but sent back home to families in Central and South America.

Once the loops come online, those jobs disappeared from the orginial economies and were sent to build the roads to nowhere. As history has shown, it had little to no positive effect on the economy of the state east of 95. And road construction and maintenance funds were funneled away from the urban areas that needed them and created an overbuilt road network with excess capacity. Their role as an "economic engine" has been proven to be false *if* there are not employable educated citizens nearby (or shipped in via military bases). The beach towns, Greenville, Wilmington, Jacksonville are ok, the rest of the coastal plain, not so much.

[Jones_]

^and ^^ I get it now...when I saw still two left turns with 15/501 stoping needed I did not realize that those lefts also have the straight traffic too in essence. So yeah, I could see saving like what 10 minutes of stop time/redlight per hour for the 15/501 through traffic which should translate into even less sitting on your butt stop time because of back-spill etc. My head does not get traffic patterns ultra fast, so thanks for the help....

[orulz]

I think that the improvements to this intersection will wind up being pointless if they don't at least coordinate signal timing with the stoplights at Sage and Eastowne. Both of the Eastowne signals are triggered by sensors and the cycle time is far too short. Driving on 15/501, I remember always getting stopped at the Eastowne signals (frequently both of them), not Europa.

[ncwebguy]

I drove through the "superstreet" intersection last weekend and it is well-signed, at least along 15-501 (I didn't approach from Erwin/Europa). The inside/smaller radius turn lane is cars only and the oustide/wider one is for cars and trucks.

The only problem, short term, is that the left turn paint is still visible on what is left of that pavement. They have a lot of work to make the "island" pedestrian friendly and to "clean up" the pavement markings to reflect the new pattern. I guess they'll repave in the spring when it is warm enough to do so.

They should eliminate one of the Eastowne intersections/signals, but Blue Cross/Blue Shield might fight.

[ChiefJoJo]

The 21st century Transportation Comittee (the same one that called for transit funding) has proposed a $2B bond package for road projects, possibly this fall.

"If the General Assembly would approve a highway bond [referendum] for this fall, then we could be in business during 2009 with a revenue stream," Wilson said today in a meeting with News & Observer reporters and editors. "To really make an impact on the highway infrastructure, that bond's got to be of a certain magnitude -- or it's really not worth doing."

Also, here's a report from a policy thinktank that recommends reforming DOT to improve efficiency, spending more dollars in urban areas, and focusing more funds on mass transit.

I remain skeptical that the General Assembly would approve a new tax or fee in an election year, but a bond referendum could work.

[cthayes75]

The 21st century Transportation Comittee (the same one that called for transit funding) has proposed a $2B bond package for road projects, possibly this fall.

"If the General Assembly would approve a highway bond [referendum] for this fall, then we could be in business during 2009 with a revenue stream," Wilson said today in a meeting with News & Observer reporters and editors. "To really make an impact on the highway infrastructure, that bond's got to be of a certain magnitude -- or it's really not worth doing."

Also, here's a report from a policy thinktank that recommends reforming DOT to improve efficiency, spending more dollars in urban areas, and focusing more funds on mass transit.

I remain skeptical that the General Assembly would approve a new tax or fee in an election year, but a bond referendum could work.

The Republicans in the General Assembly proposed a $2 billion bond last year, paying for it by ending the $174 million transfer out of the Highway Trust Fund.

[Cary NC]

Here is another example of stupid people running our state. I rather not run for office because I try to surround myself with smart people and in NC government there are to many stupid people. Common sense lacks in that one spot in DT Raleigh. $111 Million for 3000 cars. Come On!!!! It makes me wonder if we really need that $2 Billion bond that the state is trying to get ont eh November ballot. Rather let us take all the hundreds of millions of dollars away from Ahoskie and place them in Apex. This just makes my blood boil.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2510007/

3 dumbest bypasses proposed in NC

1. Ahoskie $111 Million 3000 cars a day

2. Carthage $94 Million

3. Troy $46 Million

I believe number 2 and 3 are accurate. Just don't know how old the DOT report was that I looked at.

[RiverwoodCLT]

251 Million for bypasses around 3 towns that do not have the population of Cary combine. Way to go DOT.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Maybe, just maybe, this talk of waste is what will be needed to get the legislators to change the way monies are distributed for DOT throughout the state?

[cthayes75]

Here is another example of stupid people running our state. I rather not run for office because I try to surround myself with smart people and in NC government there are to many stupid people. Common sense lacks in that one spot in DT Raleigh. $111 Million for 3000 cars. Come On!!!! It makes me wonder if we really need that $2 Billion bond that the state is trying to get ont eh November ballot. Rather let us take all the hundreds of millions of dollars away from Ahoskie and place them in Apex. This just makes my blood boil.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2510007/

3 dumbest bypasses proposed in NC

1. Ahoskie $111 Million 3000 cars a day

2. Carthage $94 Million

3. Troy $46 Million

I believe number 2 and 3 are accurate. Just don't know how old the DOT report was that I looked at.

Hmm... about the same cost and ridership that light rail in the Triangle will carry yet no one on here wants to criticize that as "wasteful" or "stupid".

Well, besides me.

[Gard]

Hmm... about the same cost and ridership that light rail in the Triangle will carry yet no one on here wants to criticize that as "wasteful" or "stupid".

Well, besides me.

There is a big difference here. The bypasses are based on actual useage figures and light rail is based on speculative numbers, which could be much higher or lower than what they are predicting. Also, as gas gets more expensive, mass transit options are more likely to be used. I would much rather be ready for such demand than to wait and then all of a sudden, be struggling to catch up, much like WCPSS did with schools and the city did with water.

[Cary NC]

I just think that if state government reworked the formula used to distribute cash for these projects then the metro areas would find their much needed projects funded a little easier.

cthayes75: I know that lightrail may seem to be wasteful to some but the honest answer is they thought that in Charlotte until they had it. Every city and I mean every metro area in the nation that has put in a light rail has out done their 1st, 5th, and 10th year projections within the first five years of existence. I believe Charlotte is on their way to be the next city. Their projection for the first year was 9000 daily riders and they are already at 12300. People gravitate to lightrail or mass transit when they get it. I have no question Raleigh will do the same. It will re define how the area is developed which will bring in more density to this area that is sprawled itself out like crazy.

[Jones_]

Hmm... about the same cost and ridership that light rail in the Triangle will carry yet no one on here wants to criticize that as "wasteful" or "stupid".

Well, besides me.

If Tony Gurly can be convinced that the present worth value of rail outweighs anything asphalt can produce certainly you can too I would think. For the planning challenged, present worth is calculated over the life span of any particular piece of capital compared to another piece of capital accomplishing the same objective.

[ChiefJoJo]

^ There are any number of pro-transit arguments related to improving walkability, reducing sprawl, sustainability, climate chainge, energy policy, economic development, land-use implications, demographic/market trends, etc. But, for cthayes, who has exhibited some libertarian leanings based on his posts here, I would think one argument would supercede all others: CHOICE. Building only more roads or just expanding buses, limits choices for our citizens to pick living and travel options. As it stands, if you live in Raleigh and don't have a car, your choices are slim. Living downtown or in another lifestyle node (like say North Hills) can reduce auto-dependency, but not eliminate it, and those centers are so attractive (do to those market trends) it prices out a significant portion of the population.

To bring this argument back on topic, I think our transportation policy needs a complete overhaul. We should still build roads, of course, but with our limited resources, we must have a very strategic, long-term approach:

• stringent cost-benefit ratios that consider all impacts (LU, induced VMT, congestion benefits, transportation choice, etc); reduce political influence
  
• environmental implications (land use, water/sewer, water quality, air quality, climate change)
  
• considers long-term recurring life-cycle costs (sustainability)
  
• prioritize projects of regional and statewide significance (reduce major bottlenecks)
  
• make the system work smarter: HOT (congestion pricing) & HOV lanes, ITS (smart traffic management), employer incentive for telecommuting, flex time
  
• and especially, an evaluation measure for land use effects/cohesion (as usual sprawl or smart growth)
  

Right now, most of these issues either are not being addressed at all, or are simply checked off in an off-the shelf report that justifies the desired outcome. I believe if one considers these factors wholistically instead of 'let's just build more roads' haphazardly, then transit becomes a MUCH more competetive investment.

[ChiefJoJo]

The N&O has a story on how streets can be designed to reduce vehicle stoppage time, and thus reduce fuel consumption, typically by coordinating signals, installing roundabouts, and building superstreets.

Some have been curious as to how a superstreet works... here's a video simulation.

[RaleighRob]

Signal coordination is a major need for Raleigh. On a recent drive down Western Blvd from downtown to Jones Franklin, I got stopped (I kid you not) at every single stoplight!! I couldn't even accelerate to the speed limit before I had to hit the brakes for the next light.

There's no sense in that.

Dawson & McDowell are great examples of how signal coordination helps flow. They should be the norm, not the exception.