Greenville Mall

[csedwards72]

And re: department stores- Parisian is more with-it than some other ones, especially in cities like Greenville that have only mid-market department stores. The Parisian at Greenville Mall looked pretty neat; it had stylish furniture in it and was a pretty stylish store; compare it to that sad Belk's at McAlister Square, for example. And the clothes Parisian sold- at least when it first opened- were pretty fancy for Greenville. I really liked shopping there, especially having grown up with only pretty bland places to shop.

Of the stores in the Carolinas, I'd say that Nordstrom is definitely the only one that is really with-it, with neat music, cool decor, and stylish clothes. I feel cool just shopping there, especially if I come from the bland Hecht's or Dillard's at SouthPark. Nordstrom tops Parisian in the coolness category but new Parisians in class A malls are pretty good, though. (I'll overlook that sad Parisian at Richland Mall in Columbia, which is surely on deathwatch.)

[RestedTraveler]

I would have suggested that Greenville would be a good place for Burdines or Lazarus, but damnit, Macy's has bought everybody it seems!

[RestedTraveler]

Maybe Elder-Beerman, Hecht's, Kaufmann's, Lord & Taylor, Marshall Field's, Mervyn's, Neiman Marcus, or Saks Fith Avenue?

[greenvilleguy]

Hecht's, Lord & Taylor, and Marshall Field's = MACY'S

[RestedTraveler]

Ugh. Is nothing sacred?

Edit: Wait a minute! Didn't Marshall Field's actually get sold to May Department Stores by Target? That's not the same thing as Macy's.

[jarvismj]

How about a Filenes Basement or a H&M at Greenville Mall? How about turning the old Wards into a new form factor for Frys? That'd rock.

[StevenRocks]

Of the stores in the Carolinas, I'd say that Nordstrom is definitely the only one that is really with-it, with neat music, cool decor, and stylish clothes. I feel cool just shopping there, especially if I come from the bland Hecht's or Dillard's at SouthPark. Nordstrom tops Parisian in the coolness category but new Parisians in class A malls are pretty good, though. (I'll overlook that sad Parisian at Richland Mall in Columbia, which is surely on deathwatch.)

Don't forget Belk SouthPark It's not as hip as Nordstrom, but it's certainly not a slouch.

[NYTransplant]

How about a Filenes Basement or a H&M at Greenville Mall? How about turning the old Wards into a new form factor for Frys? That'd rock.

My wife would be the happiest person on earth if H&M came to town. She misses that store something fierce.

[csedwards72]

My wife would be the happiest person on earth if H&M came to town. She misses that store something fierce.

I think H&M is primarily targeted towards markets in the Northeast (ie, blue states).

L&T was sold to May, but then Federated bought it, so L&T might be converted into Macy's. I hope not- but anyhow L&T pulled out of most states outside of the Northeast/Midwest.

[btoy]

is L&T still at the Mall of Georgia?

[gs3]

I respectfully disagree:

1. Most department stores have several different merchandisng divisions but all of them have a certain amount of influence in the organization.

1a. While the juniors' department at Belk seems less reponsive than Abercrombie, it has at its disposal a large number of resources that Abercrombie does not. For example, the ability to stock both name-brand and private label merchandise is a major asset. A&F can't do that. Nobody will sell to them with that much brand equity in place.

2. Coolness and hipness is relative. While department stores certainly aren't cutting edge anymore, they're making inroads back into the teen market. Just not fast enough to save many of them.

3. Private-label has always been with us, but department stores had to sell what people wanted, which was big name brands for a long time. The tipping point was when the brands consumed the stores, but it's starting to balance now again.

4. Promotional merchandise is cheap and easy to get. Plus, if people weren't buying 9.99 sweaters and George Foreman grills, there would be no point in selling them.

4a. It takes time to do product development, and most department stores are just waking up to this. Target's got its stuff together more than most retailers period, so it's not a fair comparisin to start with.

5. The high margins pay for salaries and large, heavily detailed stores. There's plenty of fat to be cut, but a lot of customers appreciate the fat as aopposed to bare bones warehouses with indifferent service and identical prices.

6. We sgree on this somewhat, but honestly it was a mutual seperation. The stores got stale and the customers got greedy. There's plenty of blame to be handed out.

StevenRocks, is there a department store thread anywhere on UP? I know this thread is about the redevelopment of Greenville Mall, so don't mean to be hijacking it.

Department stores, unfortunately have been in a major downward spiral. Below is a list of US department stores that are gone....it's staggering! And unlike the airline industry (when one folds, a new low cost entrant emerges), no new department stores have emerged. When department stores merge or die, a good chunk of the business goes to other retail models (specialty and big box). Most stores listed below were around as late as the early 80's, so in the process of about 25 years, department stores have simply withered away. I'm sure there are many more not on this list. A few names below still exist, but will be gone this year with the Federated / May merger or the Belk buy of certain Saks Inc divisions.

Here goes....the late, great stores:

Jordan Marsh-Florida / Maas Brothers / Jordan Marsh-Boston / Burdines / Robinsons / May-Cohen / Iveys / Gayfers / D.H.Holmes / Maison Blanche / Godchaux / Goudchauxs / Selber Brothers / Pizitz / Lovemans / Dunnavants / Lowensteins / Goldsmiths / Caster Knott / Cain Sloan / Harveys / Millers / Miller Brothers / Lovemans-Chattanooga / J.B.White / Meyers Arnold / Davisons / Rich's / Furchgott's / Woodward & Lothrop / Garfinckles / Hechts / Huztlers / Stone & Thomas / Heironimus / Thalhimers / Miller & Rhoades / John Wanamaker / Strawbridge & Clothier / Joseph Horne / Kaufmans / Halle's / Sibley's / McCurdy & Co / AM & A / B.Altman / Gimbels / Sterns / Abraham & Strauss / Bambergers / Alexanders / Bonwit Teller / Filenes / G.Fox / Sage-Allen / Gladdings / Higbees / Shillito's / Rikes / Lazarus / W.H.Block / Pogues / L.S.Ayres / Stewarts / Strouss / Lion Store / O'Neils / Jacobsons / J.L.Hudson / Crowleys / Marshall Fields / Pranges / Donaldsons / Daytons / Jones Store / Stix, Baer & Fuller / Famous Barr / Heirs / Sanger Harris / Joskes / Foleys / Levys / The White House / Diamonds / Goldwaters / Buffums / The Broadway / Bullocks / I.Magnin / J.W.Robinson / Emporium-Capwell / City of Paris / Meier & Frank / Bon Marche / Frederick & Nelson / The Denver / May D&F / Z.C.M.I. / McRae's / Proffitts / Rothschilds / John A. Brown

[RestedTraveler]

I know this thread is about the redevelopment of Greenville Mall, so don't mean to be hijacking it.

I don't think you're hijacking it at all. You're just exploring the possibilities for the Greenville Mall, that's all!

[csedwards72]

Also, for department stores- I'd think that the total square footage of department stores has probably increased or remained the same over the past decade, although total retail space has increased significantly. There aren't that many chains that have gone under and liquidated- Bonwit Teller, Gimbel's and Tapp's in Columbia are some of the few that have. There has just been a lot of consolidation in the industry through mergers.

[gs3]

Also, for department stores- I'd think that the total square footage of department stores has probably increased or remained the same over the past decade, although total retail space has increased significantly. There aren't that many chains that have gone under and liquidated- Bonwit Teller, Gimbel's and Tapp's in Columbia are some of the few that have. There has just been a lot of consolidation in the industry through mergers.

Agreed. However, every time a department store name is lost (merges), thats one less point of view. All the long gone stores had corporate offices with buying divisions, marketing, etc and each had a specific point of view. With so few points of view now in the department store industry, the customers choice is no longer "which department store", but "department store OR specialty store".

[Greenville]

I would also like to see a Filene's Basement or H&M in Greenville. Could we hack a regular Filene's, or would it need to be Filene's Basement? Regardless, I think it would do well. Either of these would do well DOWNTOWN also. Especially since both tend to be in heavily populated urban areas just as much as they are in malls (at least in my experience).

[jarvismj]

I would also like to see a Filene's Basement or H&M in Greenville. Could we hack a regular Filene's, or would it need to be Filene's Basement? Regardless, I think it would do well. Either of these would do well DOWNTOWN also. Especially since both tend to be in heavily populated urban areas just as much as they are in malls (at least in my experience).

Just like say, Downtown Crossing in Boston? There is a Filenes Basement in Atlanta, just north of Lenox. I know that they are branching out, so it's just a matter of time. H&M in blue states? I would think that they would go to Atlanta before here, but don't be suprised if they pick up Greenville within 5 years. I'm still radically holding out for Fry's. I was just in the one in Atlanta last night, and the selection of music DVD titles blew me away. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would even allow the big box for them, just as long as it was done right.

[greenvilleguy]

I would also like to see a Filene's Basement or H&M in Greenville. Could we hack a regular Filene's, or would it need to be Filene's Basement? Regardless, I think it would do well. Either of these would do well DOWNTOWN also. Especially since both tend to be in heavily populated urban areas just as much as they are in malls (at least in my experience).

Filene's=MACY*S also

http://www2.mayco.com/common/index.jsp

All these stores will be MACY*S give or take Lord & Taylor

[DigitalSky]

Filene's Basement and Filene's are two totally different stores, different owners (although both were owned by Filene's at one time). I don't think Greenville will see an H&M until markets like Charlotte, Raleigh see one though. And yes, all Filene's stores and other mayco storse (hecht's etc) will be macys soon

[csedwards72]

Filene's Basement and Filene's are two totally different stores, different owners (although both were owned by Filene's at one time). I don't think Greenville will see an H&M until markets like Charlotte, Raleigh see one though. And yes, all Filene's stores and other mayco storse (hecht's etc) will be macys soon

No tears here about no Filene's coming to Greenville. It's a Northeastern version of Hecht's. I used to shop at the one in downtown Boston when I lived there; the Macy's (former Jordan Marsh) next door was a lot nicer. Filene's Basement, though, would be good. The one in Union Square in Manhattan has some pretty stylish clothes by high-end designers.

[StevenRocks]

Department stores, unfortunately have been in a major downward spiral. Below is a list of US department stores that are gone....it's staggering! And unlike the airline industry (when one folds, a new low cost entrant emerges), no new department stores have emerged. When department stores merge or die, a good chunk of the business goes to other retail models (specialty and big box).

This is true, but it doesn't speak to the whole problem facing retail today, which is why Greenville Mall sits empty as other malls open and expand.

For one thing, as csedwards72 was saying earlier, is that the individual companies themselves have been closing down, but the square footage the remaining ones occupy has not shrunk by much. To be sure, there has been a weeding out of overlapping shopping centers (like Greenville Mall), and there appears to be a lot less individual choice than there used to be in the department store arena, but the options, sadly, are just as good as they were back in the day, maybe better.

After specialty stores took off in the '70s, department stores started focusing on fashion merchandise instead of general merchandise, following the lead of stores like Bloomingdale's. Two things happend in this transition. One thing was that the economy was growing slower than retail. The other thing was that with consumers with less disposable income, discount stores, namely Kmart, became a viable option. A lot of department stores never recovered form this shift, and thus set the stage for many of the closings and aqusitions of the early '80s. Critics claimed they would be gone in five years.

Fast forward to the '80s. The economy was finally growing, and department stores embraced the "avenue of boutiques" concept pioneered by stores like Macy's. Coupled with the smaller size of '80s stores, the market began to pick up some steam again. It would have worked too, but factory outlet stores became more spohisitcated and the discount stores began to offer better merchandise. Most people are suckers for deals, so those stores began to chip away at the department stores again. The department stores responded by going even more upscale and ran right into a recession and changing fashion trends, thus causing the round of closings and aqusitions of the early '90s. Again, critics claimed they would be gone in five years.

In the '90s, all bets were off. Department stores decidied to act more like discount stores and outlets. The daily coupon blizzards began in earnest, and there was an explosion of crappy discount merchandise and "fashion basics" flooding the stores, just at the time that people wanted glamour in their lives again, which was supplied by "lifestyle merchants" and copied by discount stores like Target. Department stores seemed hopelessly out of date, began to suffer somewhat, and for the third decade in a row, critics claimed they would be gone in five years.

Now we're up to today. Thirty years of unfocused marketing have landed the department store industry with only a handful of players, and they began to rationalize their store portfolios, because again, as in the '70s, the economy is growing slower than retail. Greenville Mall got caught in this crossfire. The Parisian/Proffitt's was outmatched, Montgomery Ward out-discounted, and Dilllard's simply was too much store for the market with one already down the street. This is happening at malls all over the country. Fourth decade in a row, critics are claiming department stores will be gone in five years, along with malls.

But here's the thing. The remaining operators are sensing, finally, that it's not a good idea to alienate customers. They're still emulating discount stores to an extent, and they will likely have to try this for a few more years and lose more ground in the process, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

A new generation of merchants, again led by Macy's and Bloomingdale's, is trying to bring some of the old feeling back, combined with the realities of this discount-fed, bottom-feeding retail world that's developed. So far, IMO, the results have been half-hearted, but even as cynical as I am, I can see that things are starting to change for the better finally.

Why? Because the upper end stores, led by Nordstrom, are finally getting some respect for the "averege joes" of the world. I wouldn't call it a revolution, but when you see fairly average, non-fashionista people on this board considering the concept of nicer stores, it's a breakthrough. That's not to say that Joe and Jane Lunchbox will be buying Ferragamo shoes and Isabella Fiore handbags next week at SouthPark, but they will demand that their local stores become more responsive to their needs. That will be a good thing for stores like Belk, Dillard's and Macy's, because they're in a serious funk and will go out of bsuiness if they stay in it.

Another thing that's gonna help is the Wal-Mart backlash. No store EVER has created as much piss and vinegar amongst American shoppers as Wal-Mart. People who don't like Wal-Mart are gonna need to shop somewhere, and Target isn't interesting enough to keep everybody happy. Specialty stores like Chico's and Abercrombie aren't either. This fact bodes well for department stores as well.

I said all that to say this: no matter how bad it looks, department stores are gonna be with us for a long time. There is still a need to be filled, and those stores have the resources to fill them better than anybody out there south of Wal-Mart. I just hope the department store merchants of America see things in the light I see them.

[vicupstate]

An article of interest to you Mall watchers. This article from the Jacksonville paper says only a small handful of enclosed malls are being built nationwide.

Malls at a crossroads

[perrykat]

Went to GM yesterday for a hair cut and had time to kill so I walked around some....Calendar Club and GO Games are now open in front of Eddie Bauer and Nina's. Also overheard something about a new Christmas store opening up? Not sure if it was in the mall or where. Good amount of people shopping yesterday afternoon.

Oh, BTW, the sale of the mall was closed on yesterday.

[RestedTraveler]

I think someone said either in this thread or another that Saint Nicks's (a Christmas Store) opened across Woodruff from the Greenville Mall? I don't know for sure. I've not been out that way for a while.

[perrykat]

I didn't walk the whole mall - Just from the Regis salon to the Calendar Club kiosk. I didn't look across the street either...lol

I noticed something today I had never seen before - A sign next to Monkey Wards that says "AT YOUR TABLE". Looks like it has an entrance. What is that? Is it a restaurant or something?

[Beowulf]

"At Your Table" is a restaurant that used to be located in GM. There were tableside grills and the meal was prepared at the patrons' tables, hence the name. It has long since closed, but the signs remain.