Greenville Mall

[vicupstate]

The one in in Myrtle Beach is in a mall.

[StrangeCock]

The one in Concord, NC is in a mall...and is highly visible from I-85, much like this new one in Greenville would be visible from I-385.

[csedwards72]

A few thoughts:

1. The Bass Pro Shops in Savannah was put into a vacant department store, so maybe the Greenville one will be put in one as well- presumably the vacant Dillard's or Ward's space. Are those the right sizes for a Bass Pro Shops? If not, then the chance of the mall being torn down and rebuilt is higher.

2. What use will Greenville Mall's interior spaces have once Bass Pro Shops and Burlington Coat Factory come? Probably not much- I don't think any sane in-line retailer would relocate in a mall that died twice. Thus maintaining the mall's interior spaces probably wouldn't be too profitable, and I'd expect that Bass Pro Shops and Burlington Coat Factory wouldn't want to be in a mall with a dead interior or an interior filled with C-class stores. Thus they might want the mall interior razed and replaced with some other big boxes or something or at least some type of complimentary retail.

This whole scenario is depressing, especially when I recall the fun days of high-end shopping at Parisian, Harold's, Williams-Sonoma, etc.

[jarvismj]

If the new owners could convince Restoration Hardware to locate there, that would be a great start. Also, I've heard that Greenville is on the short list for Apple Stores. Apple just doesn't put their stores just anywhere. It won't be that difficult for Gville Mall to become high end. If management can keep the type of stores that attract trouble out, then all they have to do for marketing is "Greenville Mall: Bring the kids, not the kevlar" Just an idea of mine

smilie

[gs3]

This whole scenario is depressing, especially when I recall the fun days of high-end shopping at Parisian, Harold's, Williams-Sonoma, etc.

Don't be depressed! All the shopping is still here AND more. Greenridge with Harold's, Ann Taylor Loft, P.F.Changs, Urban Nirvana, White House Black Market, etc. And now Haywood has solidfied a place as the upper end mall for the region with Williams-Sonoma, Aveda, Pottery Barn, J.Crew, Banana, Ann Taylor, Guess, Johnston & Murphy, Abercrombie, Brookstone, Godiva, etc, etc.

Malls are a thing of the past unless they are a regional center such as Haywood. Greenville Mall should be torn down and something spectaular put in its place.

[csedwards72]

Don't be depressed! All the shopping is still here AND more. Greenridge with Harold's, Ann Taylor Loft, P.F.Changs, Urban Nirvana, White House Black Market, etc. And now Haywood has solidfied a place as the upper end mall for the region with Williams-Sonoma, Aveda, Pottery Barn, J.Crew, Banana, Ann Taylor, Guess, Johnston & Murphy, Abercrombie, Brookstone, Godiva, etc, etc.

Malls are a thing of the past unless they are a regional center such as Haywood. Greenville Mall should be torn down and something spectaular put in its place.

I haven't yet been to Greenridge but I find the Greenville mall scene discouraging because just a few years ago we had 3 malls- 2 mid-market and then Greenville Mall, with a very nice interior, a moderately upscale department store (Parisian) and some really nice stores all together, and the people who shopped there were fancy, too. To me Greenville Mall was G'ville's version of Phipps Plaza. I don't really like Haywood; I have always found the mall to be sort of ratty and not nearly as nice as Greenville Mall was.

At least downtown is on the upswing and I can finally actually shop there and find a decent amount of things there rather than heading out to Haywood Road.

When is Greenville getting a high-end department store again? I'd be very happy with another Parisian.

[gs3]

I haven't yet been to Greenridge but I find the Greenville mall scene discouraging because just a few years ago we had 3 malls- 2 mid-market and then Greenville Mall, with a very nice interior, a moderately upscale department store (Parisian) and some really nice stores all together, and the people who shopped there were fancy, too. To me Greenville Mall was G'ville's version of Phipps Plaza. I don't really like Haywood; I have always found the mall to be sort of ratty and not nearly as nice as Greenville Mall was.

At least downtown is on the upswing and I can finally actually shop there and find a decent amount of things there rather than heading out to Haywood Road.

When is Greenville getting a high-end department store again? I'd be very happy with another Parisian.

Get out to Haywood.....the remodel is looking very nice. They are taking it much more upscale with subtle earth tones, leather furniture and stone. Obviously juggling around stores and adding more new, upscale and new to the market.

Most all cities have lost malls....malls are a bit of a dying breed. Unless they are large regional malls, most malls are not that healthy. I do know Haywood is one of Simons better performing malls (dollars per square foot).

As for Parisian, I have long history with them, having grown up in Alabama, and I can tell you, they are trying to find their identity....they are not really upscale as in Nordstrom, Neimans or Saks. They aren't as moderate as most department stores....they are kind of going through a split personality. If you want upscale, the Haywood Belk is the number 4 performing store in the 200 plus chain and stocks the brands (Coach, Kate Spade, Stilla, MAC, St. Johns Knits, Polo, Tommy Bahama, etc, etc....not your average Belk) and Dillards Haywood seems to be one of the better Dillards I've been in, with Puma, Diesel, La Prarie, etc, etc.

Greenville's shopping is much better than when I moved here a few years ago, so I can't see the loss of Greenville Mall as upseting. The land is a GREAT piece of land and no doubt developers recognize that.

Here's another cool store I wish we would get at the old GV mall site:

http://www.gandermountain.com

[StevenRocks]

A few comments. Sorry for the bulleting; I don't have a lot of time to respond:

-- Bass Pro Shops' latest locations are almost exclusively in malls.

-- If and when BPS and BCF locate at Greenville Mall, the interior shops will probably fill with big box stores and or reastaurants that aren't currently in the market.

-- Apple will be at Haywood Mall, no question.

-- Malls aren't dead. They're just at a low point. Enclosed shopping malls have died at least twice in recorded history and came back stronger than ever.

-- Parisian's not coming back to the Upstate. Trust me.

-- Gander Mountain is impressive. They built one in Greensboro, NC not too long ago and it's stayed packed since it opened.

Great discussion, guys.

[csedwards72]

-- Parisian's not coming back to the Upstate. Trust me.

What's your basis for that? You have good analysis of malls and I don't disbelieve you- I'm just hoping that Parisian returns, especially since I talked to the real estate head there about a year ago and was told that Parisian still had G'ville on the radar screen. With Saks' current problems, I don't see a Parisian in Greenville coming in the near term, but couldn't it return in maybe 5 years?

[gs3]

-- Malls aren't dead. They're just at a low point. Enclosed shopping malls have died at least twice in recorded history and came back stronger than ever.

-- Parisian's not coming back to the Upstate. Trust me.

Malls are not dead, but in the form we've always known them they are a dying breed. Most department anchors have gone away....the US (after the Federated and May merger is complete and the Saks Inc sell off is complete) will be left with the nameplates: Macy's, Bloomingdales, Belk, Dillards, Bon Ton, Von Maur, Gottschalks, Saks, Neimans, Nordstrom, and possibly the Saks Northern Group stores of Carsons, Younkers, Herbergers, Bergners, Boston Store as Bon Ton, who just purchased them said they will run under the original names. Thats a slim few names to fill mall anchor spots across the US. Parisian may or may not make it. If they can get their merchandise content turned around, to be more upscale again, and if a private invetsor buys them from Saks Inc, they may make it intact. That being said, even smaller than nameplates, the US department store market is run by only a handfull....Federated, Saks Inc, Bon Ton, Belk, Dillards, Gottschalks and Von Maur. Kind of sad when there used to be 100's of department store names....oh for the days of Bon Marche, Burdines, Goldwaters, Woodward & Lothrop, Foley's, Pizitz, Millers, Thalhimers, Miller & Rhoads, Jordan Marsh, B. Altman, Bonwit Teller, Broadway, Bullocks, Frederick & Nelson, Joske's, Sanger Harris, Goldsmiths, etc, etc, etc. The landscape is littered.....

So, malls in the form we've always known them are fading away. The new malls, with a Macy's for moderate, Nordstrom for high end, and Target for cost effective trends all in one mall are becoming more common. Mix the old enclosed mall with a open air center....that's the current fad. Can't see malls as we've know them ever fully recovering. Check out www.deadmalls.com This is only a hand full of the deadmalls littering the us landscape (brownfields and grayfields).

Parisian is not coming back to the Upstate. They just opened a new store in Memphis and have plans for new stores in Little Rock and Rogers/Fayetteville, Ark in 2006 and 2007 as well as a replacement store in the Birmingham metro. Parisian has to regain it's Parisian attitude from years past and decide what it wants to be. Throw out the moderate brands. Hopefully it will make it....all hinges on if Saks Inc decides to sell it off or not.

[btoy]

Does Lord and Taylor still exsist?

Also, I used to be a Rich's fan, I haven't beenmuch since it became a Macy's, I have heard that they don't carry as much higher end things any more. Is that the case?

[gs3]

Does Lord and Taylor still exsist?

Also, I used to be a Rich's fan, I haven't beenmuch since it became a Macy's, I have heard that they don't carry as much higher end things any more. Is that the case?

Ah yes, forgot old Lord & Taylor. Their future is uncertain at the moment. They were owned by May, and May didn't really do a very good job with them. They retrenched mostly to the Northeast this past year, except for a few leases they couldn't get out of. With the Federated / May merger, Federated is undecided on Lord & Taylor. All Federated and May stores will run as either Macy's (the all American moderate brand) or Bloomingdales, which will be the upscale brand. Lord & Taylor is in limbo....the name may survive or may not. I think Federated is trying to figure out how to position it....it's a historic name, but......should be answers on this as 2006 progresses.

[csedwards72]

Lord & Taylor is a Yankee version of Parisian. Both chains are moderately up-market and carry a lot of the same brands. The flagship L&T is on 5th Ave. at about 39th Street in NYC; it's not as fancy as Saks or Bergdorf Goodman, but it still has nice clothes. I really like shopping there.

I don't know what went wrong with L&T. I used to do real estate finance and saw sales figures for malls and their anchors and even though many high-end chains did great business, L&T didn't- even as low as $90 per sf in some malls. No wonder L&T stores died out throughout most of the country. I hope that the chain survives, although I picture its flagship being bought by Nordstrom and most of the other stores being shut down.

[vicupstate]

A few comments. Sorry for the bulleting; I don't have a lot of time to respond:

--

-- Malls aren't dead. They're just at a low point. Enclosed shopping malls have died at least twice in recorded history and came back stronger than ever.

Great discussion, guys.

Can you elaborate?

[StevenRocks]

What's your basis for that? You have good analysis of malls and I don't disbelieve you- I'm just hoping that Parisian returns, especially since I talked to the real estate head there about a year ago and was told that Parisian still had G'ville on the radar screen. With Saks' current problems, I don't see a Parisian in Greenville coming in the near term, but couldn't it return in maybe 5 years?

The basis for my statement is that there's not a strong enough market in greater Greenville for a Parisian if trends continue as they have. Retail growth is faster than job growth these days, and the types of stores that are growing are discount stores and upscale specialty merchants.

What's not growing, nationwide and in the Upstate, is department stores, of which Parisian is an example at the upscale mid-priced level. The only growth happening in that sector is at the very high-end (think Neiman-Marcus) and at the very low end (Kohl's). The other guys are mostly canibalizing each other to preserve what's left of a shrinking market.

It's going to be hard to justify opening another Parisian in a market like Greenville for a while, unless trends change back towards the department store service model. Maybe in 5-10 years, as you suggested, but likely not anytime sooner.

[StevenRocks]

Can you elaborate?

Sure. My college thesis was designing a mixed-use complex for a downtown area in a small city. I did a lot of research on retail history and determined that the enclosed shopping center has had at least two distinct forms before the current iteration.

One was the stoa, a partially enclosed marketplace popular in the Greco-Roman era, around the time of Jesus' birth. It beared a resemblence to the outdoor marketplaces of the Middle East, but was enclosed in a formalized building struture. They pretty much died out around the time that the Greek and Roman empires fell, but remnants of them still exist in Athens and other Greek cities.

The second coming of the enclosed mall was in the 17th century, when the shopping arcade began to appear in Europe. The mall is a direct decendent of the arcade and resembles it in form and structure. Conceptually, it never truly died, but as a building form, it lost its way when department stores usurped their roles as commercial centers in the 19th century. There are still a number of examples of shopping arcades in England and Italy, and at least a couple in the United States, in Cleveland and Providence, among other cities.

[csedwards72]

The basis for my statement is that there's not a strong enough market in greater Greenville for a Parisian if trends continue as they have. Retail growth is faster than job growth these days, and the types of stores that are growing are discount stores and upscale specialty merchants.

What's not growing, nationwide and in the Upstate, is department stores, of which Parisian is an example at the upscale mid-priced level. The only growth happening in that sector is at the very high-end (think Neiman-Marcus) and at the very low end (Kohl's). The other guys are mostly canibalizing each other to preserve what's left of a shrinking market.

It's going to be hard to justify opening another Parisian in a market like Greenville for a while, unless trends change back towards the department store service model. Maybe in 5-10 years, as you suggested, but likely not anytime sooner.

Good points. I was just thinking that G'ville is now down to 5 regular department stores (excluding the tiny Belks scattered around and the Mast store downtown), while throughout the 1980s and 1990s the town supported 9 or 10. Surely the sales per square foot at the department stores at Haywood are pretty good since there's no department store competition left in town. I just think that Greenville could support a nicer department store like Parisian if towns like Chattanooga, TN, Columbia, SC and now Little Rock do (especially Columbia, given its flock of malls and department stores); I am a white-collar professional and now just shop in NYC and at the Nordstrom in Charlotte since the Haywood Dillard's doesn't quite do it for me.

[Greenville]

And the interesting thing about it is that Parisian would never have left Greenville if it had been managed better (and perhaps it had been in a better location). I'm simply not convinced that Greenville residents weren't able to support it.

[csedwards72]

And the interesting thing about it is that Parisian would never have left Greenville if it had been managed better (and perhaps it had been in a better location). I'm simply not convinced that Greenville residents weren't able to support it.

Badly managed? What happened?

I think that Greenville has the population and income to support a Parisian, especially as it doesn't seem to take much to support one; all of these towns have Parisians:

http://www.parisian.com/Default.aspx?PAGET...RE_LOCATOR_HOME

I agree though that high-end department stores are growing faster. But Greenville is still growing at a decent rate, although job growth is not particularly great. With fewer department stores there now than 5 or 10 years ago, couldn't the market support one?

[Greenville]

I thought a few people here told us once before that the management of the Greenville Parisian's was poor. That's all I was basing my previous comments on regarding management.

[btoy]

Good points. I was just thinking that G'ville is now down to 5 regular department stores (excluding the tiny Belks scattered around and the Mast store downtown), while throughout the 1980s and 1990s the town supported 9 or 10. Surely the sales per square foot at the department stores at Haywood are pretty good since there's no department store competition left in town. I just think that Greenville could support a nicer department store like Parisian if towns like Chattanooga, TN, Columbia, SC and now Little Rock do (especially Columbia, given its flock of malls and department stores); I am a white-collar professional and now just shop in NYC and at the Nordstrom in Charlotte since the Haywood Dillard's doesn't quite do it for me.

Have you tried Clothiers like Smith & James or Rush Wilson? I have heard recently that people come from all over the South East to shop Smith & James.

[StevenRocks]

Good points. I was just thinking that G'ville is now down to 5 regular department stores (excluding the tiny Belks scattered around and the Mast store downtown), while throughout the 1980s and 1990s the town supported 9 or 10. Surely the sales per square foot at the department stores at Haywood are pretty good since there's no department store competition left in town. I just think that Greenville could support a nicer department store like Parisian if towns like Chattanooga, TN, Columbia, SC and now Little Rock do (especially Columbia, given its flock of malls and department stores); I am a white-collar professional and now just shop in NYC and at the Nordstrom in Charlotte since the Haywood Dillard's doesn't quite do it for me.

I feel your pain on the selection at most department stores. I shop at Nordstrom and in NYC for those reasons too.

The department stores left in Greenville are fighting for every dollar they can get and that's part of the reson there are only 5 as opposed to 10 a few years ago. The weaker players have either been bought out or gone out of business. The ones that are left need a higher volume of business to survive and they're resorting to looking like their discount competiton to try to attrat new customers.

[gs3]

Good points. I was just thinking that G'ville is now down to 5 regular department stores (excluding the tiny Belks scattered around and the Mast store downtown), while throughout the 1980s and 1990s the town supported 9 or 10. Surely the sales per square foot at the department stores at Haywood are pretty good since there's no department store competition left in town. I just think that Greenville could support a nicer department store like Parisian if towns like Chattanooga, TN, Columbia, SC and now Little Rock do (especially Columbia, given its flock of malls and department stores); I am a white-collar professional and now just shop in NYC and at the Nordstrom in Charlotte since the Haywood Dillard's doesn't quite do it for me.

The demise of department stores in Greenville and around the country isn't about the fact that the communities can't support them. They can. The amount of retail dollars being spent is larger than ever. More money is flowing into retail in Greenville than ever before.

The issue is that department stores have not been able to react to the needs and wants of the consumers.

1. Department stores by the nature of the set-up, have trouble with focus. When you have 20 departments catering to 20 types of customers, how can the Junior department get it's fair share of focus? Abercrombie, focused on one type of customer is going to win the game.

2. Department stores are not seen as cool or hip by the younger generation.

3. Department stores are just now realizing that they can develope their own private label merchandise and it will sell. For too long they were held at gunpoint by large a few vendors (Liz Claiborne brands, Jones apparel brands, etc), who controlled pricing and markdown dollars. (Markdown dollars to retailers is like crack).

4. Department stores must get their content tweaked to excite the consumer. The same cheap 9.99 sale merchandise is purchased year after year and thrown on tables for sale. The mailers and circulars feature the same tired merchandise. They've got to step out, take some risk with the merchandise and listen to what the customer wants. It amazes me that one can walk into a discounter (Target) and get excited about the merchandise, yet walk into a moderate/upper end department store and see the same old thing. There is no freshness. When department stores do step out on a limb with merchandise, it's usually a gimicky, here today, gone tomorrow item (example: scooters from a couple of years ago, George Forman grills, etc).

Dept stores must focus on customers lifestyles and carve out a niche.

5. Department stores have high overhead and low margin. Most strive for a 40% range margin, but rarely make it.

6. The growth of big box reatilers and specialty retailers has taken a huge bite out of department stores.

I could go on and on. My point is that Greenville and other cities can support more department stores. The dollars are there. Customers didn't leave the department stores, they left the customer.

[csedwards72]

Good points re: department stores. Anyone have sales per square foot figures for the ones in Gville? I'd be really curious to see figures for the ones that were at Greenville Mall. I'd guess that JBWhite did pretty well (maybe $250 a foot?) but that pitiful Dillard's probably did maybe $60?

[StevenRocks]

The demise of department stores in Greenville and around the country isn't about the fact that the communities can't support them. They can. The amount of retail dollars being spent is larger than ever. More money is flowing into retail in Greenville than ever before.

The issue is that department stores have not been able to react to the needs and wants of the consumers.

1. Department stores by the nature of the set-up, have trouble with focus. When you have 20 departments catering to 20 types of customers, how can the Junior department get it's fair share of focus? Abercrombie, focused on one type of customer is going to win the game.

2. Department stores are not seen as cool or hip by the younger generation.

3. Department stores are just now realizing that they can develope their own private label merchandise and it will sell. For too long they were held at gunpoint by large a few vendors (Liz Claiborne brands, Jones apparel brands, etc), who controlled pricing and markdown dollars. (Markdown dollars to retailers is like crack).

4. Department stores must get their content tweaked to excite the consumer. The same cheap 9.99 sale merchandise is purchased year after year and thrown on tables for sale. The mailers and circulars feature the same tired merchandise. They've got to step out, take some risk with the merchandise and listen to what the customer wants. It amazes me that one can walk into a discounter (Target) and get excited about the merchandise, yet walk into a moderate/upper end department store and see the same old thing. There is no freshness. When department stores do step out on a limb with merchandise, it's usually a gimicky, here today, gone tomorrow item (example: scooters from a couple of years ago, George Forman grills, etc).

Dept stores must focus on customers lifestyles and carve out a niche.

5. Department stores have high overhead and low margin. Most strive for a 40% range margin, but rarely make it.

6. The growth of big box reatilers and specialty retailers has taken a huge bite out of department stores.

I could go on and on. My point is that Greenville and other cities can support more department stores. The dollars are there. Customers didn't leave the department stores, they left the customer.

I respectfully disagree:

1. Most department stores have several different merchandisng divisions but all of them have a certain amount of influence in the organization.

1a. While the juniors' department at Belk seems less reponsive than Abercrombie, it has at its disposal a large number of resources that Abercrombie does not. For example, the ability to stock both name-brand and private label merchandise is a major asset. A&F can't do that. Nobody will sell to them with that much brand equity in place.

2. Coolness and hipness is relative. While department stores certainly aren't cutting edge anymore, they're making inroads back into the teen market. Just not fast enough to save many of them.

3. Private-label has always been with us, but department stores had to sell what people wanted, which was big name brands for a long time. The tipping point was when the brands consumed the stores, but it's starting to balance now again.

4. Promotional merchandise is cheap and easy to get. Plus, if people weren't buying 9.99 sweaters and George Foreman grills, there would be no point in selling them.

4a. It takes time to do product development, and most department stores are just waking up to this. Target's got its stuff together more than most retailers period, so it's not a fair comparisin to start with.

5. The high margins pay for salaries and large, heavily detailed stores. There's plenty of fat to be cut, but a lot of customers appreciate the fat as aopposed to bare bones warehouses with indifferent service and identical prices.

6. We sgree on this somewhat, but honestly it was a mutual seperation. The stores got stale and the customers got greedy. There's plenty of blame to be handed out.