Drinking Beer in Charlotte

[ah59396]

People often mention the possibility of us having too many breweries... But has anyone looked at Asheville and the Triangle. Both of these areas are smaller, but I was highly surprised to see the Triangle has 20+ breweries. I knew Asheville was "Beer City USA" along with Grand Rapids, but it makes me wonder why people are concerned with Charlottes brewing scene. Seems that we could handle 3x as many breweries.

We are no where near critical mass. San Diego county, for example, has 87 licensed breweries. Even considering it has 3x the population of mecklenburg, we should still feasibly be able to have 20-30 in the county.

[Niner National]

Avid Exchange is building its new HQ at Music Factory 1200 jobs (600 net new)

Yeah, I'm hoping that will be a catalyst, but I'm not convinced. It needs to be a real live-work type setup over there for Music Factory to really ever be more than it is today. An office building is a nice start, but I'd like to see hundreds of apartment units and a few hotels in that area eventually too.

[go_vertical]

What ever happened to the proposed apartment project near the factory? That combined with the offices would be a solid step in the right direction.

[elrodvt]

If they just worked out better options to get there from downtown that could be a big help.

Raised, dedicated, bike Lane for bcyclers and a pedestrian/bike bridge over the rails at 9th. Maybe run the gold rush over there too?

[ah59396]

OMB hosted a really great event last week with WFAE.  They discussed Charlotte's beer and brewery history with the owners of OMB, NoDa, Salud and Daniel Hartiss, who writes for the Observer about beer.  It was a really interesting hour.

 

 

[InSouthPark]

The way I see it is, they only way the craft beer bubble starts to burst/implode in CLT is if breweries plan too big from the start. Huge investments are needed for the some of these larger scale breweries like Unknown. It is best to start small, perfect your craft THEN start expanding to larger levels knowing you will be able to sell your beer quickly. Olde Meck, Noda, Triple C and Birdsong all did it right. Start small (and smart) and build your brand and then start expanding. Something like Unknown started out big but has yet to make a splash locally (but they are getting the beer out to other markets quickly).  I haven;t been yet, but D9 took start small to extreme as they were a very very small brewery and now after a year of not being able to keep up on the old system, they were able to move up to a full size system and move to a larger location knowing they will be able to sell enough to justify the expenses.

Edited September 30, 2014 by InSouthPark

[ScottCLT]

The way I see it is, they only way the craft beer bubble starts to burst/implode in CLT is if breweries plan too big from the start. Huge investments are needed for the some of these larger scale breweries like Unknown. It is best to start small, perfect your craft THEN start expanding to larger levels knowing you will be able to sell your beer quickly. Olde Meck, Noda, Triple C and Birdsong all did it right. Start small (and smart) and build your brand and then start expanding. Something like Unknown started out big but has yet to make a splash locally (but they are getting the beer out to other markets quickly).  I haven;t been yet, but D9 took start small to extreme as they were a very very small brewery and now after a year of not being able to keep up on the old system, they were able to move up to a full size system and move to a larger location knowing they will be able to sell enough to justify the expenses.

Agreed, it doesn't seem like they have made the splash that other local breweries have - but I must say that the USPA and especially the Ginger Heffeweissen at Unknown were awesome when I went to the taproom a while back! I don't think the Ginger Heffeweissen is a permanent beer, but if it comes back into rotation, you must try it. I certainly do wish the best for them, though.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Agreed, it doesn't seem like they have made the splash that other local breweries have - but I must say that the USPA and especially the Ginger Heffeweissen at Unknown were awesome when I went to the taproom a while back! I don't think the Ginger Heffeweissen is a permanent beer, but if it comes back into rotation, you must try it. I certainly do wish the best for them, though.

 

I really like Unknown, probably in my top 2-3 in town (NoDa/3C and Unknown are a toss up to me).  I like the USPA as one of their every day beers.  My favorite one off they've done is Raisin The Roof which they had on Super Bowl Sunday.  Tasted like cinnamon raisin bread and was about 9.5% ABV.  I've mentioned to the owner when he's walked around about how much I like that one and he said it will reappear in the fall/winter as maybe a seasonal.  So something to look out for.

 

I think they went very industrial and just don't have the inviting space/hang out spot feel many other breweries in town have but the product they put out is awesome IMO.

[grodney]

Related to the saturation topic, I like what the Sugar Creek guy said in an interview last week.  When asked how he can compete with the other 8-10 breweries already in town, his response was (paraphrased): "That's the wrong question....the question is how can all of us together compete with macro-beer?".

Edited September 30, 2014 by grodney

[kermit]

^ I mostly agree about the competitive dynamics of the marketplace, but with two caveats.

 

First, the local micro's certainly do compete for the limited tap space that is available out in the world. Every time a new brewery pushes into a local bar a different local (rarely a macro) must get displaced. It is tough to get traction in the marketplace if you are not visible outside your brewery / tap room. I think the first entrants into the market (OMB, NoDa, Birdsong and CCC) got all the low hanging fruit (in terms of easily eliminated macro taps). The next generation of locals will need to push out our first generation breweries who have developed a very loyal following.

 

Second, the micro's can't really compete on cost. Every time I am in the grocery store I cringe when I see some 20 something with a twelve pack of bud light in his cart. However, the Bud light is always going to be $3-8 cheaper in the grocery store than any craft beer and I suspect that price gap will be impossible to close given differences in scale. At current price points its going to be _really_ difficult to get cost-sensitive drinkers to switch. (I don't see draft prices as hugely different in the places I frequet, but cans and bottles of craft for off-premise consumption are extortionate IMO -- I am looking at you NoDa!). 

 

Despite those two points, I am generally optimistic on the future of micro brewers. I don't think we will ever see the market be gutted, but I suspect some of the marginal new guys will struggle with distribution and will need to be euthanized.

Edited September 30, 2014 by kermit

[grodney]

(I don't see draft prices as hugely different in the places I frequent, but cans and bottles of craft for off-premise consumption are extortionate IMO -- I am looking at you NoDa!). 

 

 

Ha ha, I see draft prices as extortionate across the board (macro moreso than craft)!  I'm always comparing bottle/can prices to that, so I'm really happy to get a 4-pack of 16oz Hop Drop for $11 and a 12-pack of OMB for whatever HT sells them for.  (Bombers are a different story, and are almost always way overpriced.)

 

But anyway, good points about tap space.  I imagine shelf space is hard to get, too, once you're into canning/bottling.  I have no idea about brewery finances, but I have to believe NoDa/Birdsong/TripleC make WAY more money off restaurants than they do off their own taprooms.

Edited September 30, 2014 by grodney

[kermit]

Those canned Hop Drop prices kill me.

 

I should have been more specific. I agree draft prices are high, but I don't notice much price difference between micro and macro drafts when I am buying one round at a time.

[HopHead]

I don't think NoDa is different than any other craft brewery with their prices. 4 pack of 16oz cans of Hop Drop n Roll is $12 (some bottle shops mark it up higher). Very reasonable IMO when you usually pay $5 for a draft pint plus tip. Would we want it cheaper? Sure. But it's simple economics too... I'd also rather pay more for a fresh local craft beer that was canned a few days ago than a $3 beer that was bottled in California a month or two ago.

[HopHead]

Those canned Hop Drop prices kill me.

 

I should have been more specific. I agree draft prices are high, but I don't notice much price difference between micro and macro drafts when I am buying one round at a time.

 

Keep in mind, the hops NoDa uses for Hop Drop n Roll are very limited in quantity. They actually have to reserve their hops supply a year in advance -- hard to imagine anyone could have predicted the popularity of it. Since they won that gold medal earlier their year, they can barely keep up with the demand. 

[ah59396]

You pay for what you get.  NoDa's owners have been very consistent in saying, along with virtually all the other brewers in Charlotte, that they will not sacrifice quality for price point.  Todd was actually pressed on the issue during the WFAE show regarding sourcing locally for product to which he basically said "we would like to source local for the support and price point, but we will not do that if it lowers quality of product.  And unfortunately/fortunately the best hops are in PNW and the best grains are in the UK and Germany".  (I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the idea).

 

But they are against the macros.  No, they wont beat Budweiser by undercutting them, it'll have to be marketed the way it currently is.  But there is certainly room to move that percentage (which I think is like, 7% market share).  Another thing the guys highlighted during the WFAE talk was this; they encourage new breweries in Charlotte, as long as they aren't stepping on each others toes.  The market will be saturated when someone else creates a brewery to make their own Hop Drop n' Roll.  But Sugar Creek, for example, is going to specialize in Belgian beers.  I'll likely go there now instead of drinking out of town Belgians.  It's not like I snagged a 6'er of Mecktoberfest in the past when i was craving a Belgian.

[InSouthPark]

^ I mostly agree about the competitive dynamics of the marketplace, but with two caveats.

 

First, the local micro's certainly do compete for the limited tap space that is available out in the world. Every time a new brewery pushes into a local bar a different local (rarely a macro) must get displaced. It is tough to get traction in the marketplace if you are not visible outside your brewery / tap room. I think the first entrants into the market (OMB, NoDa, Birdsong and CCC) got all the low hanging fruit (in terms of easily eliminated macro taps). The next generation of locals will need to push out our first generation breweries who have developed a very loyal following.

 

 

 

Sort of. A new brewery might push out a less popular local handle but only if that handle is not a good seller. For example, you used to see Birdsong's Lazy Bird Brown all over town. Lazy Bird is very average beer. As more and more locals came up, that handle would get pushed out by lets say Triple C's 3C which sold better. But that some bar would still tap Honey Pie or Jalapeno PA because they are good sellers. As that bar changes their customers taste buds to better locals, something like Lazy Bird would head to places with less discriminating tastes (like a pizza joint or something) and maybe/hopefully push out a macro like a Newcastle.

 

 

And one thing to consider, do y'all remember what the craft beer scene in Charlotte looked like 5 years ago? Most restaurants I have been to have added taps, sometimes doubling the number because of the demand. Places that used to sell nothing but macro's (like a Red Robin), now feature multiple NC and CLT taps. This will continue as long as the demand is there. I would bet the margin on a local beer is better than that of Bud Light or Newcastle. The more breweries that come along a make a great product, people will make room for it, either by expanding or pushing out less than great sellers.

 

 

Yes it is true that when you go to places, you no longer see multiple OMB beers on tap anymore. Maybe Noda took over that tap handle. BUT, you can now find OMB at practically every restaurant in town. More local options is changing the consumers tastes and if the options are good, it will create more demand for beer. If there is demand, restaurants and bars will certainly make room for it.

 

So what I am saying is, it really isn't a "limited amount of taps" out there. Consumers determine the number of taps because if a restaurant/bar can make money with more taps, they will.

[archiham04]

The other thing I have noticed about craft beer prices... the retailers tend to mark them up to the same price anyway.  Say a craft beer wants to get a lower pricing edge  and sells their product for less.  Well the retailers mark them up based on how much they think they can sell them for.  they make more money of the lower priced beers, and they seldomly pass that onto the consumer.  If the craft breweries were larger they could put pressure on the retailers to lower the prices and go for volume over profit.  They are not big, so they don't have this power.

 

Specialty Grocery stores like Health Home Market, and EarthFare tend to be the best at pricing their product in relation to the actual wholesale price.

Edited October 1, 2014 by archiham04

[WesleyHeightsWay]

So which HTs in town carry OMB? I looked at the store Uptown and didn't see any (even though the OMB site says it is carried there).

[grodney]

So which HTs in town carry OMB? I looked at the store Uptown and didn't see any (even though the OMB site says it is carried there).

 

I've seen it at the uptown HT, but it's been several months ago.  It's in plentiful supply at the suburban HT's near Ballantyne, though most I've seen carry 6-packs and few carry the mixed 12's.

[InSouthPark]

So which HTs in town carry OMB? I looked at the store Uptown and didn't see any (even though the OMB site says it is carried there).

 

Cotswold Teeter carries Olde Meck mixed 12 packs, single variety 12 packs, and 6 packs. Plus they are one of the only HT in town that currently has Noda Hop Drop (and very fresh at that). 

 

Almost every Teeter I have been in at least has the 6 packs of Olde Meck. Have you checked the end caps at the Uptown Teeter (just spitballing at this point...never been in the uptown teeter).  

[ah59396]

Mecktoberfest is this weekend at OMB, actually starts today. Grab your lederhosen!

[InSouthPark]

Just an update: Free Range has posted some pictures of progress in the brewery. Just a trench drain being installed but it looks like a start. Very excited for these guys as they were making some excellent beer in their backyard brewery. 

[SouthEndCLT811]

Re-posting grodney's quick reference as I had to go looking for it to remember which one is Free Range.

 

https://docs.google....WHc&usp=sharing

[Prodev]

Got to take a tour of Sycamore last week. While I haven't been to Old Meck's new digs, Sycamore will be leaps above all the others as far as the build out and decor of the tap room. 

[Guest]

Got to take a tour of Sycamore last week. While I haven't been to Old Meck's new digs, Sycamore will be leaps above all the others as far as the build out and decor of the tap room. 

You need to go to Old Meck's new digs. Its glorious. I'm going to go to Sycamore and Sugar Creek in November, can't wait!!! I'm also going to fly home two suitcases of Hop Drop and Roll (so good)