Nashville Retail Thread.

[smeagolsfree]

With the announcement of two more hotels(along with the previously announced hotels on KVB), and the potential apartment/condo buildings to come in Sobro...does anyone think there's a possibility of getting a Hill center style shopping development in the area to cater to all of these projects and downtown in general?

That is what I have been hoping for, for a long time. I think once the critical mass is there, then we will see a lot of retail development in the downtown area. I was just in Indy and Chicago and there is a lot of retail in both cities. I will compare Indy as there can be no comparison in any realm to that of Chicago. Indy has a downtown mall and quiet a bit of retail. The mall is connected with the convention center as well. I don't remember seeing any large anchors in it and did not spend as much time there as I would like, but did not feel like a long walk at all. The mall also had a multiscreen theater too. I think all we can do now is to hope. I do think we will see SoBro apartments start very soon and I feel that there may be a couple of high rise condos announced in the 6 months to a year downtown. No, I don't know anything, just what my gut tells me. Just what it told me about two hotels getting TIF. We have a lot of attention drawn to us right now and someone will see the need when the time is right and we are getting close.

[BnaBreaker]

That would be amazing...thought I would hope that any retail development downtown would be more than just a single strip of one story retail, and have more uses mixed into the project and on top.

[smeagolsfree]

That would be amazing...thought I would hope that any retail development downtown would be more than just a single strip of one story retail, and have more uses mixed into the project and on top.

I think we are all hoping for a quality development when it happens. The wild thing about the mall in Indy is that is was four levels and probably had 125 stores in it at least.

 

I guess I am a good guesser as I just pulled the site. 125 plus

 

http://www.simon.com/mall/circle-centre

[BnaBreaker]

Yeah Circle Centre is definitely a great development, and it has been there for awhile too.  I'm not sure how Indy pulled it off when so many other cities couldn't, but good for them for putting together a recipe that works.

[MLBrumby]

I think we are all hoping for a quality development when it happens. The wild thing about the mall in Indy is that is was four levels and probably had 125 stores in it at least.

 

I guess I am a good guesser as I just pulled the site. 125 plus

 

http://www.simon.com/mall/circle-centre

Didn't Indy just lose a luxury anchor store downtown?  Was it a Nordstrom... or SFA?

[bwithers1]

With the announcement of two more hotels(along with the previously announced hotels on KVB), and the potential apartment/condo buildings to come in Sobro...does anyone think there's a possibility of getting a Hill center style shopping development in the area to cater to all of these projects and downtown in general?

Yes, I think that a Hill Center-type development is what will go in the Northwestern Mutual site on 11th Ave North.

[nashwatcher]

why not place it within walking distance of all these hotel developments/convention center/apartments to come...imagine an urban whole foods, etc with outdoor seating like they have in green hills...would be a HUGE draw(plus would be supported by downtown/east nashville/vanderbilt/etc as driving into Green Hills is a turnoff for many...)

 

I think long term it would be a great success

[MLBrumby]

Can't see how the NWML site is a success without a megaplex theatre (with IMAX)... but if someone beats them to the punch and puts one in what I think is the best place at the Roundabout then NWML/Boyle will almost have to delay until momentum moves to the north Gulch.

[TNinVB]

Yeah Circle Centre is definitely a great development, and it has been there for awhile too.  I'm not sure how Indy pulled it off when so many other cities couldn't, but good for them for putting together a recipe that works.

MacArthur Center has been successful here in Norfolk/Virginia Beach area for quite a while as well and downtown Norfolk has nowhere near as much activity that Nashville does.  I really believe downtown Nashville could support something similar.

[UTgrad09]

I disagree with a theater being a key to success there. In fact, I can see a theater flopping big time there.

[MLBrumby]

You think a theatre would flop at the Roundabout?  That would actually be a great location with all the mix of residents and convemtioneers. 

[UTgrad09]

You think a theatre would flop at the Roundabout?  That would actually be a great location with all the mix of residents and convemtioneers. 

 

No, I meant at NWML. FWIW, I think it would be slightly less of a flop at the roundabout.

 

We already have several large theaters in town, plus more out in the burbs. 

 

It's not that it couldn't work...but I am a bit skeptical. 

 

For one, it wouldn't be a unique draw to downtown like the entertainment venues, Preds/Titans, restaurants, art galleries, or even the small amount of shopping that you have in, say, The Gulch. People outside of downtown have other closer places to see the same films. A lot of the densely populated areas such as Melrose and Belmont Hillsboro, that would be vital to the success to a downtown site, would still likely opt for the familiar choices of Hollywood 27 or Green Hills 16. That would take out a considerable amount of the higher income bracket near the downtown market. The question would be ease of access and parking. At the NWML site, I would assume there would be considerable space for parking. Near the roundabout...things could get hairy. And are we talking paid parking on top of already expensive movie tickets?

 

The other big issue to me is safety...or at least the perception of it. NWML isn't Midtown or Downtown. I wouldn't say it's dangerous, per se, but it is rather close (walking distance) to a large block of projects. While that in itself doesn't mean there WILL be a lot of incidents, I think it puts the risk pretty high because 1) movies regularly last 1-2+ hours, which makes cars an easier target. On top of that, a lot of movies tend to run late into night, which would be after most other non-bar type businesses are closed.

 

All it takes are a few smash and grabs, stolen cars, or armed robberies to paint a bad picture and completely sink the place. It doesn't matter if 95% of moviegoers have no issues, this is the type of thing that the media will jump on in a heartbeat. While it would be different in many respects, I would hate to see another Fountain Square type of thing happen. 

 

Some of the same applies to a potential roundabout location. Lafayette has a long way to go before I would start thinking about that sort of thing.

 

 

 

Of course, some of the above would apply to retail in general, but I think with movie theaters especially, it could be a bigger problem.

 

I personally think that open air retail (no enclosed mall) would be the best option...and go from there. If a theater is viable in the future, they can build it then. As of right now, I think it would be a major flop.

[smeagolsfree]

Is the theater a flop in downtown Chattanooga??

[nashvillwill]

I'm not sure than an open air mall would be the way to go by the roundabout. Those types of facilities require a very large footprint, and space is a premium in that area. If a shopping center was built near the roundabout, I would like to see it as a Multi-level (4 floors or more) indoor facility, wrapped in street fronting storefronts. You would have the street front retail to draw people in, and the interior shops to keep them in.

In my dream world, there would be a prominent Macy's with a large plaza fronting the roundabout. The shopping mall could be attached or across the street.

Also, transit would be key. I think a drive through underpass for busses and BRT would really help connect the place.

[MLBrumby]

Is the theater a flop in downtown Chattanooga??

 

The Bijou was a great success... I think the Majestic is doing well.  That area of dt has been a big draw for tourists (and now dt residents) for at least a decade now with the Aquarium, DIscovery Center, ballpark, riverfront and the restaurants.  Interesting what they are doing to the old Bijou... converting it to a "rock climbing" venue.  I haven't seen it... but pretty sure it's not finished yet.  Plus, we have a new Hampton Inn there at the corner of Chestnut and 4th Street.  It's the nicest one I've seen... a Patel (Vision) property.

[volsfanwill]

when I lived in Knoxville, I went to the downtown theater almost exclusively after it opened, I only went to the one at west town mall once and that was because the movie was only playing at that location.  

[smeagolsfree]

I really think the days of shopping malls are over for now. I do think we will end up with a similar project such as the Hill center DT. I don't think a Mall would be good DT as is takes people off of the streets. Now a smaller version may work. I was impressed with the mall in DT Indy but not real impressed with Watertower Place in Chicago. Seemed sort of small for a DT mall. I am undecided as far as a DT movie theater goes.. The price of a movie ticket is going higher and many folks like myself wait till the movie comes out on DVD or PPV. There are only  a few movies I see in a years time and I sort of pick and choose what I want to see on the big screen.

I do wish Nashville had saved one of the old DT theaters, but that is a mute point now. We could have had a venue like the Fox or Tivoli DT. I did see some great examples of a urban Crate and Barrel and a Urban Target in Chicago.  But  we are not Chicago. I do think there will be a few large retailers that will eventually locate DT, but I do ot think we are there just yet. We need more DT residents.

[UTgrad09]

I really think the days of shopping malls are over for now. I do think we will end up with a similar project such as the Hill center DT. I don't think a Mall would be good DT as is takes people off of the streets. Now a smaller version may work. I was impressed with the mall in DT Indy but not real impressed with Watertower Place in Chicago. Seemed sort of small for a DT mall. I am undecided as far as a DT movie theater goes.. The price of a movie ticket is going higher and many folks like myself wait till the movie comes out on DVD or PPV. There are only  a few movies I see in a years time and I sort of pick and choose what I want to see on the big screen.

I do wish Nashville had saved one of the old DT theaters, but that is a mute point now. We could have had a venue like the Fox or Tivoli DT. I did see some great examples of a urban Crate and Barrel and a Urban Target in Chicago.  But  we are not Chicago. I do think there will be a few large retailers that will eventually locate DT, but I do ot think we are there just yet. We need more DT residents.

 

I agree with this. 

[bwithers1]

I think that fears about crime at the NWMutual site are understandable, but a bit overstated. 

 

For one thing, the nearby "projects" have benefitted from the HOPE VI program, which may not be the architectural favorite of some on this board, but have totally cleaned up that area.  People have to apply to get back in to that housing, which involves passing a background check, and they must have jobs or be in jobs training, etc.  Crime levels in all of the HOPE VI project makeovers in Nashville have plummeted.  Police statistics show that they are often safer than the neighborhoods that surround them, where private apartment owners are often far less scrupulous about rental agreements.

 

For another thing, people park all over the place at the adjacent Marathon Village area and stay for long periods of time including for concerts late at night.  I had to pick up something from the print shop over there one weekday, and I couldn't believe how many people were there in the middle of a weekday.  The gym was packed. The coffee shop was packed.  The restaurants were packed.  Certainly Antique Archaeology was packed.  The Grayline bus tours stop there numerous times during the day to bring in the tourists.  These buses would literally run through the NWMutual site on the way to Marathon Village.

 

Lastly, the MWMutual site is situated in such a way that it would be farily easy to patrol from a security standpoint.  None of those individual lots are anywhere near as large as the surface area of a mall or even a big-box store parking lot.  I would think that parking at NMW would be structured, which makes some people queesy (especially ladies who watch entirely too much of the hocus crime TV shows) but are statistically quite safe.

 

 

 

 

The other big issue to me is safety...or at least the perception of it. NWML isn't Midtown or Downtown. I wouldn't say it's dangerous, per se, but it is rather close (walking distance) to a large block of projects. While that in itself doesn't mean there WILL be a lot of incidents, I think it puts the risk pretty high because 1) movies regularly last 1-2+ hours, which makes cars an easier target. On top of that, a lot of movies tend to run late into night, which would be after most other non-bar type businesses are closed.

 

 

 

 

[bwithers1]

I was impressed with the mall in DT Indy but not real impressed with Watertower Place in Chicago. Seemed sort of small for a DT mall.

Keep in mind that Chicago's Water Tower Place Mall, just like the 900 N Michigan Ave Mall across the street (with Bloomingdales), the Chicago Place mall a couple of blocks south of that (Saks Fifth Ave), and Northbridge mall that has the Nordrstom a few blocks south of that, is about 8 stories tall.  Each of those four malls have about as many stores as a traditional mall, but they stack them verticially in the first 8 floors of an office or condo building and have much, much less wasted space.

 

I tend to agree that theoretically they take people off the street.  But in Chicago's case, the really prime retail real estate is on the street along Michigan Ave anyway, so there is a ton of foot traffic between and among all of these places.  That's the part that I don't see happening in downtown Nashville.  But if Tony wanted to include a shopping mall in the first 8 floors of 505CST, I wouldn't complain too loudly.

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

NWMS is perfect for rows of condo towers, mid rises, and town homes. This will be an amazing and vibrant are 5 -10 years from now. Charlotte Avenue is going through a major transition, and will be an amazing terminus into the city at some point. 

[smeagolsfree]

Keep in mind that Chicago's Water Tower Place Mall, just like the 900 N Michigan Ave Mall across the street (with Bloomingdales), the Chicago Place mall a couple of blocks south of that (Saks Fifth Ave), and Northbridge mall that has the Nordrstom a few blocks south of that, is about 8 stories tall.  Each of those four malls have about as many stores as a traditional mall, but they stack them verticially in the first 8 floors of an office or condo building and have much, much less wasted space.

 

I tend to agree that theoretically they take people off the street.  But in Chicago's case, the really prime retail real estate is on the street along Michigan Ave anyway, so there is a ton of foot traffic between and among all of these places.  That's the part that I don't see happening in downtown Nashville.  But if Tony wanted to include a shopping mall in the first 8 floors of 505CST, I wouldn't complain too loudly.

We can only hope. I would be happy with 505 CST without a mall. Maybe someday

[Hey_Hey]

I'm not a movie expert by any means, but the general feeling I get from hearing people talk and reading about the film industry is that it s stagnant at best. With all the entertainment choices and increasing prices of movies we're seeing fewer moviegoers. I wonder if putting a new theater downtown would fail over the course of a few years, not because of Nashville but because the national trend is negative for the entire industry.

[volsfanwill]

It seems we are all thinking a huge 16 screen plus IMAX megaplex.  I don't think that would make it anywhere at this point.  Even Spielburg recently said that he thinks there is about to be a paradigm shift in movie distribution. Possibly with blockbusters costing as much as $20 but staying in theaters for up to a year, and lower draw dramas like Lincoln costing $7 but only staying for a month or two.  He said Lincoln almost went to HBO because he couldn't get a major studio to agree on distribution.  He said this could be jump started by a single summer of 5 or more major failures. ........I think we have 3 or 4 so far this year.....

So with that in mind, maybe a smaller 4-6 screen Theater could work downtown. or 5 and an IMAX maybe in the bottom of one of these towers we are all drooling over, or maybe as part of a huge mixed used project at the NWMS site.

[BnaBreaker]

I'm not a movie expert by any means, but the general feeling I get from hearing people talk and reading about the film industry is that it s stagnant at best. With all the entertainment choices and increasing prices of movies we're seeing fewer moviegoers. I wonder if putting a new theater downtown would fail over the course of a few years, not because of Nashville but because the national trend is negative for the entire industry.

 

I generally agree with that, and for that reason I don't think it would be a good idea to erect, say, a twenty screen cinema megaplex downtown.  However, I do think it a smaller theater that included an IMAX and just a few other normal sized, but still state-of-the-art theaters could really be a boon for the area. 

 

Here in Chicago there are a few movie theaters that are equipped with full bars, a wait staff, full dine-in menus, and theaters with leather couches instead of the typical uncomfortable theater seats.  Perhaps something like that would do well in and around downtown Nashville?