Red Line Regional Rail

[dubone]

No money anymore is a function of priorities in society.   When you have a demographic generation that is larger than the baby boomers that generally far prefer a balanced quality of life, prefer urban living over suburban, and are not yet at their peak earning potential, you have the makings of a increased NEED for urban density, which requires alternative transportation systems.

 

If we continue to do billion dollar wars or any number of other priorities and choose to ignore this social need, then of course we won't have 'money' for transit or sidewalks, etc.   But generally, societies survive much better when they are constructive rather than destructive, and infrastructure that supports. 

 

 

Mega-projects for transit are still happening, but only where they can be justified, such as far denser cities outside of the US, and the few good dense cities in the US like NYC and SF.   Charlotte does not warrant any of these, so it is easy to think of them as dead to never happen again.   But these types of projects will likely get more likely over time because of population growth.   "Money" is the method of exchange for the economic activity and demands/needs of the human population.  There will ALWAYS be money for things people need, eventually.

 

Things do get hairy, though, when they pushing things (like the Red line) that don't help fulfill society's needs.   

[carolinagarnet]

Not to pile on, but I am confident that the federal government will continue to overspend forever. As much as some politicians berate mass transit for not funding itself, nobody can resist job growth (even if they are only temp construction jobs). The bigger challenge in my opinion will be the local/state match. States governments are heavily indebted to the federal government and have huge unfunded liabilities on the pension plans, such that they will be playing catch up for years (if they're smart). Basic state services are difficult to cut, but large transit projects that dip into general fund revenue can be shelved for years or eliminated completely without citizens really feeling the impact directly (in most cases).

[ChessieCat]

Thanks for your responses.  Here is a different scenario I’d like to throw out there:

 

The Red Line in the form of Heavy Commuter Rail is off the table now that the CSX/NS grade separation at ADM has been nixed.

 

Therefore the only viable option at present for the Red Line is to be converted to Light Rail… 

 

Agree or Disagree?  

Would a LRT bridge over NC Music Factory Blvd. and CSX Mainline at ADM solve the problem?

 Is it even possible with the I-277 Brookshire Freeway overpass located where it is?

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=NC+Music+Factory+Boulevard,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.237703,-80.841364&spn=0.001809,0.002642&sll=35.236751,-80.817876&sspn=0.02047,0.042272&oq=NC+Music+Factory+bou&hnear=NC+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=19

[southslider]

If Red Line were to be LRT, it should merge directly into Blue Line. But then, the Tryon Yard would be the greater barrier, not Brookshire. Granted, if Red Line couldn't qualify for New Starts as commuter rail, it definitely couldn't as LRT.

[ah59396]

Thanks for your responses.  Here is a different scenario I’d like to throw out there:

 

The Red Line in the form of Heavy Commuter Rail is off the table now that the CSX/NS grade separation at ADM has been nixed.

 

Therefore the only viable option at present for the Red Line is to be converted to Light Rail… 

 

Agree or Disagree?  

Would a LRT bridge over NC Music Factory Blvd. and CSX Mainline at ADM solve the problem?

 Is it even possible with the I-277 Brookshire Freeway overpass located where it is?

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=NC+Music+Factory+Boulevard,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.237703,-80.841364&spn=0.001809,0.002642&sll=35.236751,-80.817876&sspn=0.02047,0.042272&oq=NC+Music+Factory+bou&hnear=NC+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=19

 

 

 

LRT will never be viable in place of the Red commuter line simply due to the density along it.  An LRT line requires a significant population within an easy walking distance to be sustainable, this is not the case with the Red Line.  And if you were to run an LRT in place of the Red Line with similar stations, the cost would be astronomical (and still under performing).

 

 

Edit:  Also what Southsider said

[Urbanity]

Is the line officially dead?  I don't mean its viability or practicality but a clear dropping of the line from the city/region rail plan.

[ChessieCat]

If Red Line were to be LRT, it should merge directly into Blue Line. But then, the Tryon Yard would be the greater barrier, not Brookshire. Granted, if Red Line couldn't qualify for New Starts as commuter rail, it definitely couldn't as LRT.

 

Good points... 

 

Need one clarification-- if Red Line LRT along the "O" Line were to merge with the Blue Line, it would have to do this at Atando Junction creating a major chokepoint at Tryon Yard?  

[ChessieCat]

LRT will never be viable in place of the Red commuter line simply due to the density along it.  An LRT line requires a significant population within an easy walking distance to be sustainable, this is not the case with the Red Line.  And if you were to run an LRT in place of the Red Line with similar stations, the cost would be astronomical (and still under performing).

 

 

Edit:  Also what Southsider said

 

Good points... but did the current Blue Line have a significant population within walking distance around 20+ years ago when they made the projections?  If I'm not mistaken the abandoned NS "A" Line / South Blvd Corridor was a decrepit industrial zone back them, much like the "O" Line /  Graham Street corridor of today.  All the modern residential buildings we see today along the Blue Line were built after the decision was made to convert it to LRT...

[ChessieCat]

Is the line officially dead?  I don't mean its viability or practicality but a clear dropping of the line from the city/region rail plan.

 

The website is still running (redlineregionalrail.org) and its last update was 10.23.13... The basic conclusion from their latest posting is that the MTC will continue to spend transit tax $$$ on consultants to study the Red Line viability and keep the northern municipalities happy, but anything beyond that is a stretch... 

[kermit]

Unlike the BLE, Norfolk Southern owns the right of way that the Red Line will use. Since NS still uses the line, FRA rules prevent light rail vehicles from running on the same tracks.

 

That restriction, combined with the distance involved, combined with low densities between 77 and Huntersville, combined with the MUCH higher cost of LRT, make light rail a non-starter for the route.

[ah59396]

Good points... but did the current Blue Line have a significant population within walking distance around 20+ years ago when they made the projections?  If I'm not mistaken the abandoned NS "A" Line / South Blvd Corridor was a decrepit industrial zone back them, much like the "O" Line /  Graham Street corridor of today.  All the modern residential buildings we see today along the Blue Line were built after the decision was made to convert it to LRT...

 

Not the density it has now, obviously, but certainly much higher than the current Red line.  I don't intend this to be snarky at all, but I'd just even take a look at google maps to see the difference in density.  The Red Line is surrounded by functioning industrial buildings and fields.  Ignoring the TOD that has occurred in south end since the blue line proposal, there are still neighborhoods that anchored that line as far back as the 50's and 60's.  Putting a light rail station at the corner of Graham and Atando is not going to equate to a mixed use development retail and apartment complex like it did in south end.

 

Just look at the projections for the Red line in terms of ridership, roughly 4,500 per day.  Not even close to enough for an LRT.

[southslider]

LRT not only requires separate tracks, but also grade separations anywhere it crosses freight railroads. That's why BLE goes over CSX between 12th and 16th, over AC&W near Matheson, and over NCRR at Craighead. And that's why Atando would likely be just as expensive as Gateway. Granted, you could at least Interline with BLE over the CSX, but you still need to get over NCRR.

[ChessieCat]

LRT not only requires separate tracks, but also grade separations anywhere it crosses freight railroads. That's why BLE goes over CSX between 12th and 16th, over AC&W near Matheson, and over NCRR at Craighead. And that's why Atando would likely be just as expensive as Gateway. Granted, you could at least Interline with BLE over the CSX, but you still need to get over NCRR.

Understood about the FRA rules regarding grade separations and no sharing of tracks.  Since the current Blue Line shares the NS "A" Line ROW between I-485 and Tyvola stations and the BLE will share the same ROW at different points along the line, is there a minimim WIDTH required between light and heavy rail tracks?  

[ChessieCat]

Not the density it has now, obviously, but certainly much higher than the current Red line.  I don't intend this to be snarky at all, but I'd just even take a look at google maps to see the difference in density.  The Red Line is surrounded by functioning industrial buildings and fields.  Ignoring the TOD that has occurred in south end since the blue line proposal, there are still neighborhoods that anchored that line as far back as the 50's and 60's.  Putting a light rail station at the corner of Graham and Atando is not going to equate to a mixed use development retail and apartment complex like it did in south end.

 

Just look at the projections for the Red line in terms of ridership, roughly 4,500 per day.  Not even close to enough for an LRT.

Not snarky at all, your comments are very informative.  Back to my earlier question:  if magically there was enough ridership to profitably build a starter Red Line LRT along the abandoned AT&O tracks between Atando and ADM, would there be enough space to cross over the chokepoint at NC Music Factory/CSX Mainline with a bridge that would not require raising the Brookfield Fwy overpass? Or would the line have to go underground in a trough to get to Gateway Station?  

 

Wishful thinking, I know

[15895]

Well at least it means we can focus on other lines now

[dcharlotte]

If Red Line were to be LRT, it should merge directly into Blue Line. But then, the Tryon Yard would be the greater barrier, not Brookshire. Granted, if Red Line couldn't qualify for New Starts as commuter rail, it definitely couldn't as LRT.

 

I would argue that you would not want to fold any new LRT into the existing blue line.  If you merge the two at any point, headways will be constrained and dictated by train spacing during the merge.  

 

See the blue/orange line issues in DC where one has higher ridership on one spur requires more trains at the expense of the other line that receives reduced service.

[southslider]

At ADM, Red Line can't go over CSX without the CSX being lowered, since it still must fit under Brookshire. Granted, LRT can tolerate a steeper incline or decline, but only so much. Plus, the HOT lanes project on Brookshire (part of I-77 tolling) will keep this bridge over the O line.

Red Line could go under CSX at ADM, but then CSX could never be grade-separated from NS. And once LYNX goes first, you guarantee an ugly tri-level situation in the future.

NCDOT already guaranteed a tri-level intetchangr at Tryon and Harris by not acccelerating the roadway separation before or concurrent with the BLE project. Someday, Harris is supposed to go under Tryon. But in the meantime, BLE must go over.

[MilZ]

I know I'm nit picking, but once Tryon is raised over Harris, wouldn't it still be considered 2-level since the BLE is aligned with Tryon?

[RVA2CLT]

How long ago were those railines laid and by which RR companies?
It just seems like terrible planning, investment and cooperation between the railroads and local/state officials.

For example, checkout Richmond's triple rail crossing:

- the bottom level was the, Southern Railway laid in 1861 (now CSX)
- the middle level was completed by Seaboard Air Line Railroad circa.1892 (now CSX & also part of the SEHSR corridor)
- the top level completed back in 1901 by C&O Railway (now NS)


 

 

Is it too late to build long elevated railway viaducts?

 

[southslider]

^^No, Tryon stays level, BLE goes over, and Harris someday goes under. BLE could stay level with Tryon, if Harris could be advanced by NCDOT.

[ChessieCat]

How long ago were those railines laid and by which RR companies?

It just seems like terrible planning, investment and cooperation between the railroads and local/state officials.

For example, checkout Richmond's triple rail crossing:

- the bottom level was the, Southern Railway laid in 1861 (now CSX)

- the middle level was completed by Seaboard Air Line Railroad circa.1892 (now CSX & also part of the SEHSR corridor)

- the top level completed back in 1901 by C&O Railway (now NS)

 

 

Is it too late to build long elevated railway viaducts?

 

I hope it's not too late, but the fact that NCDOT can't build a trough for CSX trains at ADM junction is not a good sign... 

[ChessieCat]

I was examining the abandoned "O" Line as it crosses Statesville Ave.  Did a streetcar once go along Statesville?  It is very WIDE as it approaches its endpoint at Graham.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Atando+Avenue,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.241986,-80.83674&spn=0.000509,0.000762&sll=35.225267,-80.839001&sspn=0.002879,0.006099&oq=atando&hnear=Atando+Ave,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=35.241923,-80.836738&panoid=9l518p2QPRRmErSjL8AI7w&cbp=12,15.16,,0,21.82

 

On to my next question for the Land of Make Believe (and assume the $$$ is there):

 

What do people think of a Phase I Red Line LRT that followed the proposed route from Gateway Station north to Statesville Ave along the abandoned "O" line, but then veered left at Statesville and went 6.5 miles north all the way to Old Statesville Rd?  

 

If you follow the "O" Line on the map, it closely parallels Graham/Sugar Creek/Derita/Gibbon all the way to Old Statesville, which leaves only a narrow corridor for Mixed-use development.  In fact, big residential developments like the Park at Oaklawn have occurred closer to Statesville Ave than the "O" Line.  Wouldn't Statesville LRT be more conducive to Mixed-use development than the abandoned "O" Line corridor? 

[ah59396]

Neither line warrants LRT in it's current capacity or even likely 2040 capacity. That said, if this is indeed magic land, feel free to build an LRT wherever you want, haha.

[LKN704]

I wonder if a tram-train would work for the Red Line. They are essentially light rail sized trains, but they are legally able to run on regular tracks, IIRC. Austin's Capital Metro Rail is like that.

[15895]

Red line will be commuter and god knows when/if it will be built.

I'm sort of PO-ed that Gateway isn't getting more attention. It's still much needed regardless of the red line