Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[JFW657]

47 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

That's true, but the reality is the potential for new upscale bars/clubs opening in Downtown Orlando seems unlikely. I would love for downtown to have more upscale venues, but what person in their right mind would want to come downtown to go to a fancy bar if the element of crime has not been addressed? Hmm, go downtown and potentially get robbed or shot or just go to Winter Park/Dr. Phillips and skip the unnecessary excitement. Tough choice.

Yes, if decent music like jazz, swing, easy listening, etc. were popular amongst Gens X & Z, DTO would have upscale venues coming out of it's ears. Assuming it had ears. 

But as long as the current youth "music" trend is obnoxious junk which by its very nature attracts "sketchy people" and promotes crass, lawless behavior and disrespect for others, that's the only thing downtown club owners will offer.  

The clubs are just giving patrons what they're willing to pay for.   

[jrs2]

3 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Yes, if decent music like jazz, swing, easy listening, etc. were popular amongst Gens X & Z, DTO would have upscale venues coming out of it's ears. Assuming it had ears. 

But as long as the current youth "music" trend is obnoxious junk which by its very nature attracts "sketchy people" and promotes crass, lawless behavior and disrespect for others, that's the only thing downtown club owners will offer.  

The clubs are just giving patrons what they're willing to pay for.   

That is actually a very good point.  You know what? When I was in Vegas, even in the 5 star venues, the music was very ghetto. It left a bad taste in my mouth.  Do I like some of that music some of the time? Yes. But when you fly 5 hrs and go into a swanky casino, don't you expect to hear, like, Sinatra or something like that? Instead you get Superbowl halftime BS. They cater to the demo they are attracting, which goes to your point for DTO.

[JFW657]

8 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

That is actually a very good point.  You know what? When I was in Vegas, even in the 5 star venues, the music was very ghetto. It left a bad taste in my mouth.  Do I like some of that music some of the time? Yes. But when you fly 5 hrs and go into a swanky casino, don't you expect to hear, like, Sinatra or something like that? Instead you get Superbowl halftime BS. They cater to the demo they are attracting, which goes to your point for DTO.

We are becoming a trashy culture. 

Young, impressionable suburbanites have become convinced that this type of trash culture is hip and cool, so that's what they expect and demand for their music to represent.

Even young women are turning increasingly trashy in their dress, speech and mannerisms.  

Used to be back in the pre-2K's, getting covered in tattoos was something you saw almost exclusively on biker trash and a few rock stars trying to look tough. 

Now it's considered urban hipster chic for young women who used to have flawless, beautiful skin to turn themselves into walking graffiti walls. 

Yeah, I know...

  

[Uncommon]

That kind of music is pretty universal now tbh. It doesn’t really cater to a particular demographic as much as it does seemingly to most under-40 year olds. Upscale bars and lounges don’t appeal to the masses, and definitely not as an every week thing. I can see going to something akin to the Wine Room in Winter Park for an event or every so often, but week in and week out, it’s boring. Why? Because young people are trying to have sex, dance, flex for social media and/or show off their bodies most weekends. Upscale lounges and bars playing Frank ****ing Sinatra ain’t the place for that.

A happy medium does definitely exist however. Places like downtown St. Pete manage it well. Unfortunately, I think that’s the exception and not the norm. A lot of downtowns across the US are like Orlando’s (or worse).

[Ivanhoe]

^Something about how downtown Orlando has deteriorated rather than even stagnating seems sad and different from peer cities. I’ve tried to go out downtown a few times in the last year and inevitably we just end up in the Milk District or Virginia / Mills area because it’s more hip, edgy, and well, more safe.

Edited March 2 by Ivanhoe

[Uncommon]

It’s all about perspective though. If downtown was dead af, not walkable, dirty with bums everywhere or just plain ugly, people here would be up in arms about it. I’m glad DTO isn’t like San Antonio, St Louis or Portland, for example.

And I’m not suggesting anything sinister but I wonder if words like “ghetto” or “trashy” have anything to do with the demographic shift of downtown since pre-2016. Places like Nashville, Austin or even St. Pete or Ybor get very rowdy on weekends at night (including violence), but I would bet they are seen in a much better light than DTO on UP.

[jrs2]

26 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

It’s all about perspective though. If downtown was dead af, not walkable, dirty with bums everywhere or just plain ugly, people here would be up in arms about it. I’m glad DTO isn’t like San Antonio, St Louis or Portland, for example.

And I’m not suggesting anything sinister but I wonder if words like “ghetto” or “trashy” have anything to do with the demographic shift of downtown since pre-2016. Places like Nashville, Austin or even St. Pete or Ybor get very rowdy on weekends at night (including violence), but I would bet they are seen in a much better light than DTO on UP.

I think there is a demo shift.  To each his or her own, but on Saturday and Sunday,  go to Mai Tai brunch at the Plaza.  Not knocking it because...I like 'em all...but that's a good illustration. 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

We are becoming a trashy culture. 

Young, impressionable suburbanites have become convinced that this type of trash culture is hip and cool, so that's what they expect and demand for their music to represent.

Even young women are turning increasingly trashy in their dress, speech and mannerisms.  

Used to be back in the pre-2K's, getting covered in tattoos was something you saw almost exclusively on biker trash and a few rock stars trying to look tough. 

Now it's considered urban hipster chic for young women who used to have flawless, beautiful skin to turn themselves into walking graffiti walls. 

Yeah, I know...

  

100% right.

Interesting observation: Even tho Vegas has done that ala music, go to Diz Springs and they still pipe that jazz music thru the outdoor speakers. 

And yes, back in the day, tats were like Hells Angels and seamen (uh, huh huh) and that bald actor that always played a thug.  And for proof of what you'resaying about young ladies, aside from, like, your actual memory, just look up '90's adult cinematography and compare it to today...

[jliv]

There was a time when the most violence came from Courtney Love when she punched those dudes in the front row from the stage at the Edge.  I blame rap and “EDM”.  Mostly dumb forms of music which draw scores of dumb people on coke.  I wonder how much mafia money has flowed downtown in recent years.

[F-L-A]

On 3/2/2024 at 5:16 PM, JFW657 said:

We are becoming a trashy culture. 

Young, impressionable suburbanites have become convinced that this type of trash culture is hip and cool, so that's what they expect and demand for their music to represent.

Even young women are turning increasingly trashy in their dress, speech and mannerisms.  

Used to be back in the pre-2K's, getting covered in tattoos was something you saw almost exclusively on biker trash and a few rock stars trying to look tough. 

Now it's considered urban hipster chic for young women who used to have flawless, beautiful skin to turn themselves into walking graffiti walls. 

Yeah, I know...

  

 

16 hours ago, jliv said:

There was a time when the most violence came from Courtney Love when she punched those dudes in the front row from the stage at the Edge.  I blame rap and “EDM”.  Mostly dumb forms of music which draw scores of dumb people on coke.  I wonder how much mafia money has flowed downtown in recent years.

This forum must be popular at the country clubs. 

On 3/2/2024 at 8:52 PM, jrs2 said:

100% right.

Interesting observation: Even tho Vegas has done that ala music, go to Diz Springs and they still pipe that jazz music thru the outdoor speakers. 

And yes, back in the day, tats were like Hells Angels and seamen (uh, huh huh) and that bald actor that always played a thug.  And for proof of what you'resaying about young ladies, aside from, like, your actual memory, just look up '90's adult cinematography and compare it to today...

"Adult cinematography." I'll have to remember that one. 

[jack]

These last few comments on this thread has me like: 

 

[jrs2]

10 hours ago, F-L-A said:

 

This forum must be popular at the country clubs. 

"Adult cinematography." I'll have to remember that one. 

...I try to pay it forward when I can...

[RedStar25]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:28 PM, JFW657 said:

So you want to misinterpret or exaggerate the meaning of my comments? You want to create a larger reason for contention than that which exists?  

I have to assume that is the case, because nothing I've said on the subject comes anywhere close to the way you are portraying it. 

You said you didn't want to see this corner developed with a building like ZOI house.  I think  that's pretty straight forward.  

[RedStar25]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:35 PM, nite owℓ said:

That's true, but the reality is the potential for new upscale bars/clubs opening in Downtown Orlando seems unlikely. I would love for downtown to have more upscale venues, but what person in their right mind would want to come downtown to go to a fancy bar if the element of crime has not been addressed? Hmm, go downtown and potentially get robbed or shot or just go to Winter Park/Dr. Phillips and skip the unnecessary excitement. Tough choice.

My perspective is this... Most urban cities tend to sit on their hands and tolerate/condone/enable/look the other way with crime and criminals wreaking havoc and destroying the quality of life for residents and homeowners. While not perfect, I'm very appreciative of the unconventional steps taken by the City to secure entry points, limit new bars and cut down on the party atmosphere on the street with groups of sketchy people loitering around and tailgating on private lots. Nothing is stopping any existing establishments from becoming more upscale. I believe there was 1 shooting that occurred outside of the perimeter of the secured area and TBH I haven't heard of anything else since they started cracking down. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

It's one thing when you work downtown, slip into your car and split before the riff raff start coming out of the woodwork. But it's a completely different experience when you're downtown full time and bunch of lowlifes from out of the area turn your neighborhood upside down with no repercussions. Highly doubt you would tolerate criminal mischief, monthly shootings, etc. in your neighborhood and I'm pretty sure you would want drastic changes to keep crime in check. I'm definitely not one of those defund the police types.

For some reason, people think downtown urban areas should be ornamented with homeless people on every corner and believe crime just goes with the territory, meanwhile they would never tolerate the same element in their suburban neighborhoods. I believe urban areas should be just as safe as the suburbs and it's about time cities start implementing outside of the box measures to avoid repeating the failed policies of Seattle, LA, NYC, etc.

Well this is BS. meanwhile crime is down in almost every major city in the country. 

[AmIReal]

FWIW, several full-service restaurants have recently opened downtown. The Drake, Sushi Saint, Debonair Supper Club, Judson's Live and Solita if you go back a little longer. Coming soon, Schmankerl Stubn, Leiah, White Rabbit. Mason's Lobster is not full service, but it is a national brand. The market place does not seem to agree with the idea that no one will come downtown.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, RedStar25 said:

You said you didn't want to see this corner developed with a building like ZOI house.  I think  that's pretty straight forward.  

Yes, it is.

What is also straight forward, was when I said I'd like to see a high-rise go up on that corner, just not as massive as Zoi House. 

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1614596

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1620768

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668336

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668341

How that translates in your mind to me not wanting to see vertical development in the central core is something you'd have to explain. 

Because it makes no sense to me. 

[jrs2]

On 3/6/2024 at 2:33 PM, JFW657 said:

Yes, it is.

What is also straight forward, was when I said I'd like to see a high-rise go up on that corner, just not as massive as Zoi House. 

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1614596

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1620768

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668336

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668341

How that translates in your mind to me not wanting to see vertical development in the central core is something you'd have to explain. 

Because it makes no sense to me. 

how do you make links to prior posts?  that's way beyond my pay grade.

on another note, I think we all have opinions, and stances, and then tend to double down (on so many subjects), ya dee ya da ya da. and when its in print versus conversational, it's like worse or whatever...like a tweet.  it reminds me of a fight I was witnessing between a couple I knew: guy was very calm and talking very low volume...gal was yelling at him stating : stop yelling at me!  He was like...I'm not yelling.  Her response: you're using TONE!  I almost fell out of my chastity shorts upon hearing that.  Applying that to the present, there are so many "tone" implications from simple sentence structure and word choice.  it is fascinating.

Back to Zoi, I just find it utterly ridiculous that the midnight hour razing of Jaymont Block Round 2 took place with that Oak...except here NOTHING occurred afterwards; not even a complimentary reach-a-round.  What a waste.  

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

how do you make links to prior posts?  that's way beyond my pay grade.

Three dots in upper right corner.

Click on them, then click SHARE.

You'll get a box like this....

Just do a CTRL-C copy which will copy the highlighted text, then do a CTRL-V paste into the post you want. 

You can also click on the "More sharing options" box which has a Copy button you can click plus various other options.

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

on another note, I think we all have opinions, and stances, and then tend to double down (on so many subjects), ya dee ya da ya da. and when its in print versus conversational, it's like worse or whatever...like a tweet.  it reminds me of a fight I was witnessing between a couple I knew: guy was very calm and talking very low volume...gal was yelling at him stating : stop yelling at me!  He was like...I'm not yelling.  Her response: you're using TONE!  I almost fell out of my chastity shorts upon hearing that.  Applying that to the present, there are so many "tone" implications from simple sentence structure and word choice.  it is fascinating.

It's difficult sometimes to correctly interpret someone's tone or attitude from a text post, but not always. In this case I made obviously clear statements about my opinion on a subject, but was told I said something completely different.

Nothing you can do about that but post links to what you actually said and let them figure it out.

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

Back to Zoi, I just find it utterly ridiculous that the midnight hour razing of Jaymont Block Round 2 took place with that Oak...except here NOTHING occurred afterwards; not even a complimentary reach-a-round.  What a waste.  

That was a travesty.

Some greedy-azz developers couldn't care less about anything other than shoving money in their pockets. 

How ironic would it be if someday a tree fell on him?   

[codypet]

Didn't the City double back and levy a fine on them?

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

Didn't the City double back and levy a fine on them?

Probably some paltry little token amount if at all.

Not even enough to raise an eyebrow. 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Probably some paltry little token amount if at all.

Not even enough to raise an eyebrow. 

yeah, no fine can every give back 100 years of growth of a tree like that... unless you also have the DeLorean...

[RedStar25]

On 3/6/2024 at 2:33 PM, JFW657 said:

Yes, it is.

What is also straight forward, was when I said I'd like to see a high-rise go up on that corner, just not as massive as Zoi House. 

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1614596

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1620768

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668336

https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/118600-389-north-aka-zoi-house-41-story-mixed-use-proposed/?do=findComment&comment=1668341

How that translates in your mind to me not wanting to see vertical development in the central core is something you'd have to explain. 

Because it makes no sense to me. 

I can only go by your words. Your opinion is fine. I don't agree with it, but if we want the city core to be developed this makes sense. 

[smileguy]

United Arts posted a new Creative Placemaking Director role this week, funded by DDB/CRA. 

Quote

 

United Arts of Central Florida is seeking a Creative Placemaking Director to lead new initiatives in public and private partnerships that champions the use of local arts and culture to elevate community vibrancy, foster social connections and supports local economic development in Downtown Orlando.  This role requires a blend of artistic passion, strategic thinking, and community engagement expertise. 

The Creative Placemaking Director will have a vision for activating public and private spaces to increase pedestrian traffic in our urban areas and positively impact economic prosperity of downtown businesses. 

 

https://unitedartscfl.org/about/careers-volunteer/

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, RedStar25 said:

I can only go by your words. Your opinion is fine. I don't agree with it, but if we want the city core to be developed this makes sense. 

It’s a perfectly acceptable plot of land on Orange Ave for Orlando’s tallest building. In fact, I believe it could bring some much needed depth to that stretch of the core.
A good 600’ footer adjacent to the courthouse,  across from Society and BOA, and viewable from Lake Eola would be a great addition.  
 

Also, dust off those OMA expansion plans and move it here where it belongs rather than a side street in South Eola.

Edited March 9 by Ivanhoe

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, RedStar25 said:

I can only go by your words. Your opinion is fine. I don't agree with it, but if we want the city core to be developed this makes sense. 

That's all I ask.

That you go by my words when responding to them and not replace them with your own or those that you'd like to substitute for mine. 

IMO, a slender, 200' - 300' tall building with a footprint small enough to be contained within that one parcel would be perfectly acceptable and even preferable. 

You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

The important thing to remember here is that neither yours nor mine will have any bearing on what if anything ever gets built on that corner.  

18 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

A good 600’ footer adjacent to the courthouse,  across from Society and BOA, and viewable from Lake Eola would be a great addition.