Downtown Norfolk Progress

[urbanlife]

Out of curiousity.. how do you all feel about Freemason St. and the little two story single-family homes that line the street all the way to St. Paul's?

I really don't like it and think it would fit in more in Park Place. Freemason would be better if it were lined with 5 or 6 floor apartment buildings and ground floor retail.

I think the intention was to have the new houses fit in with the historic houses that are along that street...but I agree, that shouldnt of mattered and denser buildings should of gone in along this portion of Freemason...I also think this area of the city is really wasted with everything that is there now, very limited urban feel to that portion of downtown. Though things might of been different if the mall wasnt designed to be a massive suburban mall in the middle of downtown.

[varider]

Really the whole downtown could use more density.. There are still a ton of 1-3 story buildings.. surface lots, etc.I'd like to see a lot more infill in the coming years.

[varider]

Everyone take a look at these night aerials of Norfolk!

Especially #15. Norfolk looks like a real city in some of these pictures and you can see the city lights over Hampton Roads..

http://www.photoshelter.com/c/cameron/gallery-img-show/Aerial-Norfolk-Virginia/G0000FrRLW00ANc0/?_bqG=14&_bqH=eJwrNK4MMwjIyos3cg1Js0guCYoMjCipDC0qSva0MrS0MjWwsnKP93SxdTcAAreiIJ9wAwNHv2QDtQCQqJq7Z7y7o4.Pa1AkNkUANLMbEQ--

[varider]

Low resolution photos. I promise I'll get a better camera sooon,haa.

The more and more that I critique and explore downtown Norfolk.. the more and more I want to move there and live there for the rest of my life. It's such an neat place in my opinion. How coool would it be to be able to walk to the grocery store, movie theater, restaurants, doctors, gyms, tides/admirals games, city hall/courts, banks, take rail to the oceanfront, town center, etc. All it needs is some more retail, lanes re-openeed, couple more office towers, LRT, and a couple more apartment/condo towers and I'd live there in a heartbeat.

Granby and College

150 W Main

Edited January 24, 2010 by varider

[brikkman]

Nice shots, not many people in those photos.

You will never catch me just chilling and walking in DT when its cold out, but man, it was dry out there. I still blame the city, its so many things you can do to liven DT up and it would be fairly cheap compared to the tax breaks and other crap they give out.

Edited January 25, 2010 by brikkman

[urbanlife]

Heck, studying other medium size cities to see what they are doing to be active would be an important thing for Norfolk to do. They seem to try things, but it seems like it is half hearted moves usually. Hopefully with these developer company that wants to renovate several of the downtown buildings for middle incomes will help increase activity downtown.

Usually the typical way for cities to revitalize their downtowns comes from the practicing artists and musicians that take up spaces in a city. I dont remember any more, but it never seemed like Norfolk really put much support in anything that could be a grassroots movement with the arts communities in the city....though I could be wrong and they actually have, but nothing has come of it.

Which if that is the case, that would make me wonder what they are doing wrong because Tacoma, which had many of the same problems Norfolk has had, has been turning itself around nicely...though that city still has a long way to go. I think once we see trains running through the city, that might be the buzz that is needed for the city.

[varider]

Everytime I go downtown (which is quite often.. I usually go and get some foood and explore the different streets/neighborhoods, etc.) i always take note of the foot traffic/activity.. The couple times that I've been DT on a workday the city had steady/heavy foot traffic.. people walking everywhere.. lots of activity..etc. Saturdays? Few people walking.. but not much. One time I went DT and there was a teenage dance recital or something of the sort at TCC and Granby was real busy.. Buyt if nothing is going on.. expect a dead zone. Sundays? D-E-A-D! But aren't most ciites like this? I've seen shots of NYC on a Sunday with empty sidewalks..

[ronsmytheiii]

http://hamptonroads....ry#primary_tabs

This library is going to be awesome!!

Im not sure how great of a view there will be when finished:

[urbanlife]

Everytime I go downtown (which is quite often.. I usually go and get some foood and explore the different streets/neighborhoods, etc.) i always take note of the foot traffic/activity.. The couple times that I've been DT on a workday the city had steady/heavy foot traffic.. people walking everywhere.. lots of activity..etc. Saturdays? Few people walking.. but not much. One time I went DT and there was a teenage dance recital or something of the sort at TCC and Granby was real busy.. But if nothing is going on.. expect a dead zone. Sundays? D-E-A-D! But aren't most ciites like this? I've seen shots of NYC on a Sunday with empty sidewalks..

Actually yes, most downtown cores are dead because of the high concentration of office buildings. Which is why it is important for small downtowns to have as much of a mixture as possible to encourage activity on the weekends. Big cities that have a large downtown and dense urban neighborhoods have less to worry about because the urban neighborhoods usually take up the slack...the problem with Norfolk is those urban neighborhoods were removed for the public housing that currently surrounds the downtown.

[usermel]

Urbanlife just made a GREAT POINT! The projects(Im from Diggs Park,not downtown but, in Norfolk) around downtown are a concern to me. Not because of people like me but, those who feel fear of people in low income areas. The city of Norfolk must do better planning from now forward. Urbanlife is coorect. Those neighborhoods of the past were torn down due to revitalization in the 1950's-1970's! Its hard to replace the charecter of those places. To the west of downtown there are great streets to walk etc.!

That said, the old plaza to the east and Tidewater Prk and Youngs Park to the northeast across from Scope take away from the potential of Norfolks urbam growth. What they could do with tht land the projects stand on to imrove urban living. The problem is were do you move those people in the projects to improve the land were the projects lay on now. The city wasnt planned well. After they tore down the buildings during urban renewal and after, it seems they didnt have a clear plan to fill back those clear lots properly and they put low income housing right beside there downtown which hurt growth downtown long term and we see the effect of it now. It seems Norfolk's downtown was a product of the Military(Navy mostly) and thats why the downtown even exist. This is a military area clearly and when you speak of government money, you speak of long money. So need for those in power of a Charlotte like or Atlanta downtown isnt in there plans. They may feel Norfolk is in a better place than those cities due to military strength locally!!! L.G.N.M

[brikkman]

And there is nothing wrong with the idea of public housing, its the policies that need to be checked. It also needs to be integrated with the city and not looked at as the "poor" section. The city (and probably just not norfolk), does a crappy job with that. Out of all the cities, I think Va.beach does the best with their public housing programs (and hampton, can't really speak for suffolk). Because I am from Norfolk, I can't tell what is or isn't public housing in Va.beach because I'm too use to what I see in cheapeake, norfolk, portsmouth and newport news. That's how it should be!!!

The biggest problem with Norfolk's Public welfare system is "POLICIES".

[brikkman]

After they tore down the buildings during urban renewal and after, it seems they didnt have a clear plan to fill back those clear lots properly and they put low income housing right beside there downtown which hurt growth downtown long term and we see the effect of it now.

Only thing I will say to that is, I believe that was done because it was a time in history were racism and the need to separate classes of people was prevalent. Integration into the city was the last thing on their minds.

Im not sure how great of a view there will be when finished:

I still do not like it and I believe the scale of that station is off. That plot of land is not nearly as big as it appears in that drawing.

[Norfolk4Life]

also i think the dominion building there is like 8 stories taller

[VBIllini13]

And there is nothing wrong with the idea of public housing, its the policies that need to be checked. It also needs to be integrated with the city and not looked at as the "poor" section. The city (and probably just not norfolk), does a crappy job with that. Out of all the cities, I think Va.beach does the best with their public housing programs (and hampton, can't really speak for suffolk). Because I am from Norfolk, I can't tell what is or isn't public housing in Va.beach because I'm too use to what I see in cheapeake, norfolk, portsmouth and newport news. That's how it should be!!!

The biggest problem with Norfolk's Public welfare system is "POLICIES".

I don't know if Virginia Beach even has subsidized housing, but you definitely do not wanna be around the apartments near Lynnhaven Elementary after dark...

[urbanlife]

Only thing I will say to that is, I believe that was done because it was a time in history were racism and the need to separate classes of people was prevalent. Integration into the city was the last thing on their minds.

I still do not like it and I believe the scale of that station is off. That plot of land is not nearly as big as it appears in that drawing.

It is roughly 160ft by 240 ft, so I would say it is actually pretty accurate looking.

Also, the more important thing with the public housing around downtown is that they currently do not respect any form of urban grid, redeveloping them back into grid streets and allowing for a better mix of development, while not forcing out all the people that live there is the key. I think we will see if this works for the city, if and when it ever builds the St Paul Quadrant.

[urbanfan]

Only thing I will say to that is, I believe that was done because it was a time in history were racism and the need to separate classes of people was prevalent. Integration into the city was the last thing on their minds.

I still do not like it and I believe the scale of that station is off. That plot of land is not nearly as big as it appears in that drawing.

The picture is obviously stretched quite noticeably. That is why dominion looks so stubby and short. Looks to me that the picture should be more square and someone stretched it to a rectangular orientation.

[usermel]

Without question we all can agree that Norfolk suffers from bad urban planning since 1950-1970's urban renewal. The streets downtown arent grid oriented at all like Richmonds downtown and other U.S. cities. Again, I feel the city was born from the military and the growth of Norfolk and the entire metro is directly related to the military(Navy especially)!! When Norfolk finally gets a mayor who truly understands what URBAN means things will change as far as understanding that Scope isn't BIG enough to be the arena that reps the city. That strip malls and more eateries than you can count isn't what makes a city. Our city leaders grew up as we did if as I assume you members are from Norfolk(metro) and they have very little idea how to grow Norfolk and how to plan for growth and the cycle keeps repeating itself! Norfolk is in my opinion 1 GREAT mayor away from being the city to truly watch. The downtown has growth potential but, pre economic downfall not enough was being done to make good on it.

I know alot wont agree with what I say but, until we get a mayor with a BIG CITY mindset we will always seem like a sleepy town that has potential!! L.G.N.M

Edited January 29, 2010 by usermel

[jbhay]

Are you suggesting that the Scope be demolished in the future? I can understand the age and its modest capacity, but I always feel indifferent about cities that decide to remove such landmark structures. Norfolk has already erased much of its history during the urban renewal years and I would hate to have a Scope-less city on visits to the city later in life.

There is so much more to be done in Downtown Norfolk and I agree with your opinion on a new mayor with better vision; Fraim is a great guy, but Norfolk needs a smart, young, and above all, an experienced mayor to lead the way towards future economic progress. Sadly, the leadership all around this country is rarely on track with investing in America's future and that's what Norfolk needs.

Enough of that, here's the designer of the Scope for those who are interested:

Pier Luigi Nervi - notice his much earlier sports hall design in Rome!

[brikkman]

Without question we all can agree that Norfolk suffers from bad urban planning since 1950-1970's urban renewal. The streets downtown arent grid oriented at all like Richmonds downtown and other U.S. cities. Again, I feel the city was born from the military and the growth of Norfolk and the entire metro is directly related to the military(Navy especially)!! When Norfolk finally gets a mayor who truly understands what URBAN means things will change as far as understanding that Scope isn't BIG enough to be the arena that reps the city. That strip malls and more eateries than you can count isn't what makes a city. Our city leaders grew up as we did if as I assume you members are from Norfolk(metro) and they have very little idea how to grow Norfolk and how to plan for growth and the cycle keeps repeating itself! Norfolk is in my opinion 1 GREAT mayor away from being the city to truly watch. The downtown has growth potentil but, pre economic downfall not enough was being done to make good on it.

I know alot wont agree with what I say but, until we get a mayor with a BIG CITY mindset we will always seem like a sleepy town that has potential!! L.G.N.M

I agree, one mayor away. But shouldn't we discredit the city council as well?

[urbanlife]

Are you suggesting that the Scope be demolished in the future? I can understand the age and its modest capacity, but I always feel indifferent about cities that decide to remove such landmark structures. Norfolk has already erased much of its history during the urban renewal years and I would hate to have a Scope-less city on visits to the city later in life.

There is so much more to be done in Downtown Norfolk and I agree with your opinion on a new mayor with better vision; Fraim is a great guy, but Norfolk needs a smart, young, and above all, an experienced mayor to lead the way towards future economic progress. Sadly, the leadership all around this country is rarely on track with investing in America's future and that's what Norfolk needs.

Enough of that, here's the designer of the Scope for those who are interested:

Pier Luigi Nervi - notice his much earlier sports hall design in Rome!

Plus Pier Nervi has only done a few buildings within the states. It is amazing that Norfolk managed to get such a great architect to design a building within the city. I hope the Scope stays well protected for a long time to come because of that. Seriously though, his concrete work is just amazing to see.

[usermel]

Are you suggesting that the Scope be demolished in the future? I can understand the age and its modest capacity, but I always feel indifferent about cities that decide to remove such landmark structures. Norfolk has already erased much of its history during the urban renewal years and I would hate to have a Scope-less city on visits to the city later in life.

There is so much more to be done in Downtown Norfolk and I agree with your opinion on a new mayor with better vision; Fraim is a great guy, but Norfolk needs a smart, young, and above all, an experienced mayor to lead the way towards future economic progress. Sadly, the leadership all around this country is rarely on track with investing in America's future and that's what Norfolk needs.

Enough of that, here's the designer of the Scope for those who are interested:

Pier Luigi Nervi - notice his much earlier sports hall design in Rome!

Hey jbhay, No my friend I am not in favor of getting rid of The Scope. It is a very unique building and one of few unique buildings in our metro. I see it as a local treasure due to who designed it and when it was built(part of urban renewal)!! I agree we need to keep tht history. What I was saying if you truly read what I was saying is The Scope can no longer be a centerpiece for Norfolk as the main indoor arena(locally as well with the venue in Hampton)! The Scope seats no more than 13,000 at capacity and thats peanuts. I went on tour with a major artist in 2007 and seen arenas 18,000-30,000 in size. These places attract BIG name entertainers that in turn bring money to those cities and tax dollars. Norfolk is building a light rail in a metro dominated by cars.

Some areas are car areas like Phoenix,Arizona for instance. Do I think it will be used? Yes, but it wont get to many out of there cars unless like me they do it for the environment only. Now, Te Scope has been an issue for years in terms of its ability to draw major acts(music) on a consistent basis. Also, the issue of a pro team factors in. We have a pro team population but, not a pro team facility and that pushes the NBA,NHL and others away. Heck if we had a baseball stadium that seated 40,000 it could also be a venue for BIG acts, though not indoors which I feel is a better investment for the metro.

To do so Portsmouth or Va Beach or Chesapeake or a combination that agrees needs to join with Norfolk in financing this project and share the revenue streams. Equal cost to build city to city and equal profits so no one city is overshadowed by the other. The location depends on the cities involved and a study on were the best place to locate it will be based on the cities involved in financing this project(arena/stadium)! It is best its a joint thing because it can provide a stronger econmic backbone for it and include sister cities if they want to be included. Dont think this would happen but, at worst Norfolk should on its own. The Scope is outdated and unattractive to locals and to those who do concerts here. I know because Im in the music biz. We need a strong draw here.

The Norva wont suffice by itself being its for smaller audiences. As for the Fraim comment I agree he's a nice guy but a local to the core. It will take an outsider from say the Northest or the Midwest to change the cities direction financially and future wise. If not that, a young woman or man from here who has fresh ideas and isnt kin to old guard local politicians and someone who cant be brought and that is hard to find in any profession!!L.G.N.M

[usermel]

I agree, one mayor away. But shouldn't we discredit the city council as well?

Yes, they all are to blame and if you follow the news my comments on Townes being a scapegoat seems to be true. He himself on his facebook said he was the scapegoat for what happened. I know this game guys/gals and as i stated he told them what they claim he didnt. I saw when the council threw him under the bus along with those who worked with him at HRT. I dont know if it was about race as much as I think its about power and control. Townes had been doing a good job until recent events like the $80,000 that was stole under his watch and the light rail situation. Again, my issuue wasnt him being fired it was that he was the only one who was. In BIG business there are always 2 who knew or more. Trust me.

Now, to the point about council members needing to be replaced,YES! I agree 1000% and as you can tell by my previous comments I think that whole infrustructure has become infested and ALL parties were in on it until the heat came. They have for years been under the radar until this recent set of events and light rail is the tip of the iceberg trust me. Palms must be greased to put EVERYONE at EASE!!! Over budget usually means=under the table deals with contractors etc. and much more than civilians are inclined to know. ALL big business is dirty and clean doesnt exist.

Townes will say more when he's away for good after he gets ALL his money in 2011 Sept.! He's just waiting! We need to clean house because as nice as Fraim is he is just like the others in Norfolk city council. The reason Norfolk has slowly grew is the city government and the barrell of crab syndrome! There all a bunch of crabs saying"if I die, you die before me" thinking if one crab dies, they'll be spared!!! We have to remember that politicians are human and they dont always like those they work with so we must expect the unexpected. If Townes was liked he would have been protected and if not, he gets thrown under the bus! Its about Power/Money and if you get rid of someone you fear you increase your chances of attaining power. Townes is thru in Norfolk as far as that type of city status. The city council protected there hides!!!

THE CITY COUNCIL must go!!!!! L.G.N.M

Edited January 29, 2010 by usermel

[Norfolk4Life]

two things: The money stolen on Townes's watch was in the independent auditor's report... City Council just didn't bother reading it. instead they just went off of their presentation...

second, I think we should get a big Norfolk mural painted on top of Scope. It could have the mermaid and LRT and other stuff. The idea being that you could see it from Google Earth or the like. At the very least write COME VISIT NORFOLK, VA around the very top of Scope.

[usermel]

Like the idea about the mural on top of Scope buddy!!! L.G.N.M

Edited January 30, 2010 by usermel

[varider]

A mural sounds like a great idea. Maybe we should send a couple e-mails? Between a mural on scope and the artwork at the LR stations, downtown could continue to grow its arts community. Uhmm.. but about Scope. I love it and all. But I feel much space is wasted in the plaza surrounding the arena and I think it's much too small for a city our size. So I'd like to see it completely demolished. A new arena 18,000+ constructed in it's place, wrapped with retail, and maybe a hotel/condo tower next door.

Also, does anyone know when Google will update their aerial/streetview database?Norfolk loooks pretty sorry in the current aerial without the recent developments.