Downtown Norfolk Progress

[urbanlife]

seeing that we have been on this topic of pro sports and I have been working the graveyard shifts this week (and it has been beyond slow this week for me), I am curious about this topic. I know we all have an opinion about pro teams in Hampton Roads and there are many reasons for and against having one. Also there are plenty of people within the region and state that would support one, but I am more interested in the realities of the region getting a pro team.

Which of the five pro teams (probably 6-7 if you included women leagues as well, but at the moment they still rank at minor league popularity...so I am not including that in this idea, but if anyone wishes to add that to the mix and has a good reason, then feel free) NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and MLS do you think Hampton Roads will get first and which city do you think will play hardball to score such a team? I figure any new team to the region or state is going to end up in Virginia Beach or Norfolk...there is always a possibility that someplace like the very northern end of Suffolk near the Monitor-Merimac bridge tunnel could be an option, but that is just speculation.

Also, out of those 5 leagues, who has teams thinking of moving or unhappy with their current situation? I know MLS is very likely to be the first pro team for the region because it is an expanding league and would be easy for the region to score a new team, especially if they are looking to expand into the southeast states. Also, the buy in for a MLS team is fairly cheap compared to the other pro leagues and would only require a stadium that can handle 20K-27K people. Attendance wise, MLS, NHL, and NBA are fairly even.

NBA and NHL could be a possibility, but for both leagues, I dont see the region getting a team through expansion, it would have to be a team looking to relocate. My guess is it would have to be a team like the Seattle Sonics, who were upset at being treated as a third rate team in Seattle and wasnt getting the attention that the Mariners or Seahawks were getting.

I dont think the region could get a NFL or MLB team, which if they did it would have to be through relocation, unless MLB decided to expand by two teams in the AL, which if they did that, I think Portland would get one of those teams because they would be in need of one more AL team on the west coast. But MLB is an expensive one to have and I am sure Portland could barely handle one and I am not sure Hampton Roads could handle one. NFL is also another interesting one that I think is out of Hampton Roads' grasp...though teams like the Tennessee Titans do sort of prove me wrong when it comes to that because I dont see the market that team is in as much different than Hampton Roads. But with the NFL and MLB, I think there might be too much competition in the mid atlantic area for either of those to make it in that region.

Anyway, that is my take on it, it would be nice to hear what you guys think, as well as doing some digging on actual teams and find out which ones might actually be in the market for a new home...granted this is all just rumors and theories and nothing more than that, but it beats going around in circles over the vague, Hampton Roads needs a pro team, argument.

[varider]

While I don't know which one we will get first (I do believe within the next 15 years it will happen), I think the most suitable for our area would be the NBA or NFL. Both of these sports are really popular around here and this is shown in the ratings for both TV and radio. Location doesn't really matter,but the optimal location for an arena/stadium would be anywhere along the LR corridor from DT to the Oceanfront..I could really see the entire region/state rallying around a pro sports team and wouldn't be shocked if the stadium/arena was packed every single game.

[gad1492]

I'd really like to see the NHL come to Virginia. When i lived down in Hampton Roads we used to go to the tidewater sharks a lot. That was many years ago. The Hampton Gulls, remember them. Then the ECHL Admirals. Now the AHL Admirals. In Richmond we are going backword in hockey. No team this year. I just think that with the history you have down there with hockey that the NHL would be great.

[varider]

I'd really like to see the NHL come to Virginia. When i lived down in Hampton Roads we used to go to the tidewater sharks a lot. That was many years ago. The Hampton Gulls, remember them. Then the ECHL Admirals. Now the AHL Admirals. In Richmond we are going backword in hockey. No team this year. I just think that with the history you have down there with hockey that the NHL would be great.

I'd support the NHL.. I love Admirals games, and NHL is much more intense. Man why don't we just build a 18,000 seat arena that could be used for either NBA or NHL and call it a day? Wouldnt it be nice if we could like switch leagues with Tampa and make Norfolk NHL and Tampa AHL.. they dont deserve hockey in FLA..

[gad1492]

I agree. Just build the arena and a team will come. That would be great to change leagues with Tampa. It is just hard to imagine hockey in Florida. I follow the Caps. but they are not in Virginia. I'd drive to Norfolk many times a season for the NHL. Just build build an arena please. And hurry.

Edited February 3, 2010 by gad1492

[varider]

At least start building a fund for an arena. Scope could be used in the interim (sp.?) A joint venture between the seven cities is neccessary.

[urbanfan]

Tons.but I doubt they all go at the same time, during rush hour. A game with a 7pm start would mean SHR residents would need to leave around 530pm. During peak hour when the tunnels are all backed up 5-10 miles already. I'm not saying people wouldnt combat traffic to see a game.. but it would certainly be a deterrent to some. Also, it would help for a stadium to be adjacent to a rail line.. which I can't see happening in Williamsburg for a while

Actually amtrak runs right through downtown Williamsburg. But I understand your point. However, most people going to games and stadiums do so by driving not transit. Ease of traffic is a much better selling point for a stadium at this point.

[varider]

Actually amtrak runs right through downtown Williamsburg. But I understand your point. However, most people going to games and stadiums do so by driving not transit. Ease of traffic is a much better selling point for a stadium at this point.

Yeah I'm aware of Amtrak service to the Peninsula..but I was referring to local transit service. && people do ride local transit to ball games. I'm even expecting heavy crowds on the TIDE on nights when the Tides or Admirals play.

[Norfolk4Life]

Considering that I could pay for parking AND a LRT fare for less than what Harbor Park charges for parking, I would def. ride the Tide to a Tides game. I feel a catchy slogan coming on for that....

[brikkman]

I'd support the NHL.. I love Admirals games, and NHL is much more intense. Man why don't we just build a 18,000 seat arena that could be used for either NBA or NHL and call it a day? Wouldnt it be nice if we could like switch leagues with Tampa and make Norfolk NHL and Tampa AHL.. they dont deserve hockey in FLA..

I could get behind hockey. Of all of this, that is the most feasible for this area.

[Norfolk4Life]

just for kicks i did some comparisons. Did you know that we could fit a Scope-like building the size of the Superdome on the site that the Scope currently sits on? Brambleton would have to shift a street-width north and St Pauls would have to shift a street-width to the east but it would fit. You could even build 2 - 3 story mixed use buildings on the streetfront so that you would not have a mega block.

[varider]

just for kicks i did some comparisons. Did you know that we could fit a Scope-like building the size of the Superdome on the site that the Scope currently sits on? Brambleton would have to shift a street-width north and St Pauls would have to shift a street-width to the east but it would fit. You could even build 2 - 3 story mixed use buildings on the streetfront so that you would not have a mega block.

People dont realize how much of a use of space that elevated plaza around Scope is..

[usermel]

Yeah, I agree with gad1492 when he said build an arena and they will come. Oklahoma City did and got the Thunder(use to be Seattle Supersonics) because they has an arena before they got a franchise. The Cities of Norfolk and Va Beach must join forces for a team. The NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB would be more likely to award the area a team with those 2 cities joining forces. Our area needs unification when it comes to pro sports and building an arena with money from both VA Beach and Norfolk would cure alot of ills. Until a team comes to say a 20,000 seat arena(would be good for NHL/NBA) they cn host bigger concerts for BIG nme artist like the Rolling Stones and U2 etc.!

I know Jay-Z is coming to the Scope but, imagine how many acts would come her if the ticket sales would be in the 20,000 range! Thats what keeps us from getting those BIG acts like Madonna. If we get Va BEach and Norfolk to join up we can get a team looking for a new arena with the quickness! L.G.N.M

[varider]

Hampton Roads already has a concert venue that seats 20,000. The Verizon Wirelesss Virginia Beach Ampitheater and big name artists are in town all the time.

The Verizon Wireless Virginia Beach Amphitheater is a 20,000 seat outdoor concert venue located in Virginia Beach, Virginia. The amphitheatre opened in 1996; and since then, due to its size and target audience has hosted conerts by large names in the music industry, including but not limited to: Nickelback, Coldplay, Dave Matthews Band, Phish, Shania Twain, Kenny Chesney, Jimmy Buffett, 311, Aerosmith, Rascal Flatts, Mary J. Blige, Steely Dan, and Gwen Stefani. The venue also hosts the Vans Warped Tour and Ozzfest.

[usermel]

Hampton Roads already has a concert venue that seats 20,000. The Verizon Wirelesss Virginia Beach Ampitheater and big name artists are in town all the time.

That wont suffice dear friend because it can only be used constantly when the weather is good. Its not a great venue for year around use. Im in the music biz(work with Atlantic Records and had a record deal as well) I speak from experience not specultion. Yes, Im aware of Verizon Wireless outside venue I performed there myself 2 times. That said, within the industry this area isnt a place were Justin Timberlake and other acts will consistenly come because it doesnt have the indoor facilities. Ive been in the dressing rooms and all over the ampitheater in Va BEach VaRider. I know its hard to hear we dont have some of the things it takes to be a major player but, I speak based on what is said by BIG names.

Yes, they come but, promoters pay artist to come most times and secondary markets like Norfolk/Va Beach need more than a 20,000 capacity out door facility. I wont say who I am but, I am a music industry insider VaRider. The Verizon spot is cool but, we need an MCI Center type venue that can seat 25,000 inside so unless it is a horrible weather event like a hurricane the show can go on. Im sure you knew I was aware of the Verizon Wireless ampitheater sir, and aware who has performed there but, if you want to get U2 and The Rolling Stones once every year or two you need a spot that can do at least 30,000/40,000 maybe! Major acts like Madonna whom Ive worked with sell out concerts and 20,000 capacity isnt enough with production cost etc.,you can make some paper but, larger venues mean more revenue and that drwas major acts!! Its more to concerts than just performing its a business. I say all I say with respect. Im seasoned young man. I speak based on experience and again Im aware who has been there to perform we need an indoor venue that can als be a place for the NBA/NHL team we hope to get.

As for MLB or NFL we need at least a 40,000 seater for MLB or 65,000-70,000 seater for the NFL. I played at Giant Stadium as well for Summer Jam with JAy Z and many others. An other major cities I performed in as well such as the O2 arena in London. Major venues(indoor) and outdoor attract acts consistently and build reps that artist in the biz talk about when planning tours! In the 1980's when I was your age The Scope and The venue in Hampton did get Bigger acts but, the cities havent upgraded. Jay Z will be here in March but, how many acts come to Scope on the regular to perform and how frequent all year around are shows at the VA Beach Ampitheater

Progress isnt about saying what we have, its about identifying the weakness and fixing it and or making a solution so we as a community are stronger. The Verizon spot isnt enough of a mojor spot at 20,000 capacity and we arent talking SEATS. All I say isnt to offend but, we must be honest about were we live to fix whats wrong. I LOVE my HOMETOWN but acts come here ut of need for money its not a destination for music industry acts(big/med/small)! I was also backstage at the Timbaland show(great show) and seen the Norva and it also doesnt measure up to venues in other cities. L.G.N.M

Edited February 4, 2010 by usermel

[usermel]

As a minimum we need about a 20,000 seat indoor arena to compete with major towns to go along with The Verizon Wireless Ampitheatre. Its not crucial we have a 30,000 seat indoor spot or a 40,000 sit outdoor spot or more. That said the MCI center has a capacity of little over 20,000 I believe for basketball games. I dont know the concert capacity and if its about the same I dont have those figure but, I went on tour and seen it sold out(Justin Timberlake's 2007 tour)! Im proud we have the ampitheatre again but, weater has effected it and our area has slaprock(bad luck) luck for events at times when it comes to weather!!

I cant imagine anytime soon the arena issue will be fixed anyway with light rail being a priority now and other more important events locally. I just know we arent a major player as Id like and when in convo's with my industry friends its little to say about what draws folks here besides the oceanfronnt in the summer. That said, I LOVE were im from I just want to see it become a better draw! L.G.N.M(Love God Not Money)

[usermel]

All the time I dont think is true. Mostly during the warmer months they come here. We need a better inside spot buddy!! I feel you trying to stick up for here as I do all the time for us when Im in Miami and NY/LA etc., but, this isnt a destination my friend. I hear what they say after the concerts and its never good( I defend here when they do) and know some of the people on the list you pointed out performed here as well. I lived in NY metro at 19-23 and can tell you I hear the shows when they come to the area all the time and the level is not comparable as far as how frequent we get BIG shows and acts at the ampitheatre sir!! L.G.N.M

Edited February 4, 2010 by usermel

[varider]

I respect everything you said and am kind of in awe over your contacts.

The size of our venues doesn't really matter to me though. If other cities can top us, fine. I was at the Wayne/Young Money concert at the ampitheater in the summer. It was wild && sold out. Was at the Timbaland/Clpse/etc. concert @ the NorVa.. Seen Wale @ the NorVa.. Trey Songz @ Willet Hall.. All the people I like to see are in town annually and the show is always sold out and hype. Why does Lil Wayne come here every year? Why do we have Warped Tour? Why is Jay-Z coming to Scope in a month? && this may not be a destination like MIA/NYC/LAX but we can hold our own. Friends of mine have seen the likes of Jay-Z walking down Atlantic Ave, Biggie Smalls and Diddy walking down Granby St., I've seen Chris Brown @ MacArthur, etc.

[usermel]

I respect everything you said and am kind of in awe over your contacts.

The size of our venues doesn't really matter to me though. If other cities can top us, fine. I was at the Wayne/Young Money concert at the ampitheater in the summer. It was wild && sold out. Was at the Timbaland/Clpse/etc. concert @ the NorVa.. Seen Wale @ the NorVa.. Trey Songz @ Willet Hall.. All the people I like to see are in town annually and the show is always sold out and hype. Why does Lil Wayne come here every year? Why do we have Warped Tour? Why is Jay-Z coming to Scope in a month? && this may not be a destination like MIA/NYC/LAX but we can hold our own. Friends of mine have seen the likes of Jay-Z walking down Atlantic Ave, Biggie Smalls and Diddy walking down Granby St., I've seen Chris Brown @ MacArthur, etc.

With ll due respect your 18. Im 36!!! The way it is now with shows cant compare to the 1980's. I understand you can only view it from your eyes. Just because Jay-Z was on Atlantic Ave means little. Im a former major label artist. When we come to cities we make nice with the locals and visit radio stations etc. for airplay. Your young VaRider. Instead of trying to be right be WISE. Its ok to be smart but, its better to be WISE. Im still behind the scenes in the biz and you will get artist to come hear if there hot if promoter got the paper to pay them they come. Jay-Z is invlved with Live Nation on some BIG biz type stuff. Its more to the book VaRider than the cover. I know the Clipse/Timbo/N.E.R.D etc> I was backstage at the show(Timbaland at Norva and know him) myself. Im a real industry insider. Im telling you to heed what Im saying. The smoke and mirrors you see is the artist here. Truth is either money or promotion is why(not all the time but most buddy)!

That said, they come here because they have to. They go to Miami and ATL/L.A/N.Y City and other spots because they want to. Richmond is a more desired spot for entertainers than here as well. Not because of venues but, rep( as far as concert turnouts etc.! Yes, we have a great musical tradition here. Missy/Tim/N.E.R.D/Clipse to name a few, the list is to long now to name. We also have up and coming producers here and 2 of them are signed to my company but, I wont name them but, they have worked with BIG names in R&B and HipHOP and POP. When I was in any city(when I was an artist for a major/Atlantic 1997-2004) its suggested to go to the mall and all the local spots were folks frequent so the locals feel you like it there and are down to earth etc. blah blah blah.

Imagine any BIG name dissing here. How does that effect what you and other young consumers think and hurt there sales. Im 36 now and came in with my 1st pro contract at 19 buddy. Im seasoned, trust me on this. Some shows dont mean alot bro cause when I lived in NYC it was 4-5 events a night with ALL major acts and same in Miami and D.C and L.A its common there and all nights of the week always something at least and they have the "House of Blues" in most major music markets were the major airplay comes from(airplay/videos means BIG checks for artist and I still get them). When I was younger we got more shows than they do now and had better clubs. Its actualy went down. Yes, Verizon VA BEACH Ampitheatre has helped the metro get Ti McGraw and some of the things you named because 20,000 can get in there but, promoters bring in acts and radio stations. Are you aware some show artsist to arent paid gigs? Radio stations tend to trade air play for show appearances and radio station interviews. When an act comes to a town of this size its about the $ or promotion and MacArthur is agreat place for Chris Brown to be seen so you and others can say"Cjris Brown was in MacARthur MAll" is promotion and image motivated.

Most f what you think is just obligation not desire to be here. Thats why the BIG acts from here(I know them ALL) moved to Miami because its hard to get acts to stay here and work because of the night life or lack there of. Teddy got MJ here but, had Teddy not lived here MJ wouldnt have come here god rest MJ's soul. I know Teddy also and he moved from here to Atlanta! The only reason Imhere is I LOVE VA and Im not an artist anymore so dont have to travel as much and can run my production company form here. Email is a time saver. HAHAHAHAHA!!! L.G.N.M

Edited February 4, 2010 by usermel

[usermel]

In major cities you may see LIL Wayne 3-5 times or more. Yes, he came here but he needes to because labels have a break down of sales and promotion is based on that. Then you have promoters who want to cash in on an artist ability to draw. If an artsit is $100,000 to get you pay $50,000 upfront and then the backend when he/she arrives. So ticket sales are based on what the promoter needs to make to turn a profit in this case. Also, he/she has cost to promote and security and many other cost. Its more to it than you think. You spoke of moving one day and I suggest NYC. That city will make you see my points young'n.

You have to live alot to know alot more. I thought like you when I was 18 until I moved up north and stayed for years I didnt see what we lacked here and yes we got more shows than you guys do now. I now mentor many young African Americans about the music industry now as well. We didnt have the Va Beach Ampitheatre but, Scope use to get lots of shows. One thing that stopped alot of shows at Scope was the kids used to bumrush the show and rob cats after the event. I was never robbed but knew lots who were. Bumrushing was popular then and it was when they would break the glass into Scope to see the show.Some got caught and some got in the show. Ive seen this area become less of a spot desired in music to come to and become a name on the tour schedule. Touring is about money and Norfolk/Va Beach is on the outside of places they cant wait to get to on tour. This is seen as a good place to raise a family in the industry! L.G.N.M

Edited February 4, 2010 by usermel

[urbanlife]

hmmm, well now I am officially confused how we got on to this topic.

Just in speaking about the idea of building a 20,000 seat arena in the metro to attract big name musicians more often, seeing that attracting them to the region isnt the important factor because they come anyway, even if it is because they have to. Anyway, the rough estimate of cost for something like this would cost the region about 175-275 million dollars, depending on site and design. It would be interesting to see where there is room for anyone within city or state government that would be willing to push for something that expensive. Which having an arena of that cost just to have musicians visit more often doesnt seem like it would pencil out on costs.

Though back to my initial interest, lets say Hampton Roads (ie, Virginia Beach or Norfolk) has the best chance of scoring an NHL team, it would probably be through relocation because I dont see the NHL doing anymore expansions any time soon or even ever again. With that in mind, I am curious what potential team that would be. I assume it would be a team that is wanting a new stadium or feels as if they are being treated as a third rate team in their current city or there is little to no fanbase where they currently are.

[HopHead]

I don't think Hampton Roads necessarily needs to build a new 18k-20k seat arena with the sole purpose of attracting a major league franchise. As long as you have it used 100-150 times a year it certainly serves it's purpose in my opinion. Look at the BOK Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. A beautiful new venue that primarily hosts special events, arena football and minor league hockey. Though, a WBNA team is relocating their for next year as well. They are in kind of the same boat though as Virginia in general, in terms of having a difficult time trying to attract a major league tenant like the NBA of NHL because of close proximity to a number of other franchises. Their state's peer city of OKC, has the Thunder. So their only chance of getting a franchise is with the NHL and I'd suspect they are not on the short list. But back to HR... I agree with some of the other posters that a regional effort is needed here (much like one would be in Richmond). Norfolk won't be able to build something like this without the help of VA Beach and vice-versa. I've been to concerts at the Scope and Hampton Coliseum within the last 5-6 years before moving to Charlotte. Those were fine venues about 15-20 years ago, but they are way out dated and too small by today's standards. I'm sure Hampton gets events here and there but definitely not with the frequency that it was in the 80s and 90s. I will say though, and I'm not ragging on my old stomping grounds, shows at the Hampton Coliseum were far better attended than they were in Richmond (even for the same artist). I was more into the hard rock stuff than R&B which is what I suspect is usermel's background. Metallica came to both Richmond and Hampton within weeks of each other in the early 90s. The Richmond show was barely 3/4 full but at the Hampton show, you could barely move. And that was typical anytime I saw a band on the same tour in both cities. I bet that was also the reason why fewer shows ended up being played in Richmond vs. Hampton. Richmond is more of a variety type place as opposed to mainstream (that's why I think the National does so well there). I believe today though, it comes down to venue (a band will play an arena that seats 18,000 versus one that seats 12,000 b/c that's much more $ in their pockets) and then people supporting the acts. So if your region can find a way to work together, something like the BOK Center would come to fruition. But, I suspect you may need to wait a few years for better economic times...

BOK Center in Tulsa, OK

Edited February 4, 2010 by dbull75

[Sky06]

I'm all for building a 20k-25k seat arena in DT Norfolk. But who's going to pay for it? People around here whine about the cost of mass transit, something that affects everyone. Imagine how they'd feel about a "luxury" building many will never use. Before arguing with me, I'm not one of those who feel that way. But if you listen to the posters on Pilotonline and elsewhere, I'd have to believe you'd have a riot on your hands. I still think it's a good idea, even if we just broke even, but I'm afraid you'd have a hard time convincing most people, particularly in this economy. It's just not a simple matter of cities coming together and doing it. I wish it were that easy.

[usermel]

Apologize to you ALL for getting of topic. 1000% my fault alone guys/gals. Keep it going on the right track again fellow humans!! L.G.N.M

[usermel]

All you last 4 or so posters made great points. I wnt to add to those great points myself guys/gals. One member made a point about how locally they complin and whine alot and I AGREE. That will be probably the biggest hurdle is either changing there minds or getting by there complaints. Thats why I said earlier in one of my post were I got off topic to much we need VA Beach/Norfolk to d the arena together. This may calm both cities citizens a bit but, not toally as far as there disagreeing. The arena would rep for the area were moving forward and getting rid if our traditions because our traditions are holding us back(The Scope/The Hampton Venue) because they cant accomodate acts with luxury suites for Bigber selling tickets and backstage comforts as well. Yes, sounds small to the avegae fan but, I work in the biz and this is the talk about here. Now how do we get it done? May have to satrt with the city council and move up!

Were it can be put is a huge question. Can Norfolk and Va Beach see it benefits the metro. When Biz folks come here they see the area as a whole mostly like when Im in L.A I know when Im in Beverly Hills or Hollywood but, mentally I see it as one BIG place and call it L.A as the name is for the metro there. Same goes for NOVA I think of the city of D.C and the VA/MD suburbs as D.C even though Im aware Im in Vienna,VA or Silver Spring,MD! If we get a venue thats 20,000 seats its a certain draw for a team(Hockey I think is the way to go then the NBA 2nd) that may want to relocate and can help with night life locally as well especially during the season. After parties will be a norm though Im not into parties anymore there are plenty who are and theres money in clubs and the party seen for club promoters and owners. Its like a domino effect.

Also, you move athletes here that are unaware of here now and its overall beauty and they see Pungo and other parts locally they have yet to see and this becomes attractive to others and word of mouth is the best promotion for all things! I think we have the money to support it as well. We have many like me who have debated leaving because of the fact theres not anything here to do. Yes, one team means during the season that void is filled. At least for 4 months its filled and the wait for the next season to support the Virginia Neptunes or whatever they name the team is there. Im emotional thinking about it now. Trust me, my heart is racing. Im a Cowboys fan and a Laker fan but, if we get a team in either sport i may have to switch. How special to have a team and have generations grow up supprting them. I really want this for future generations. We did good doing the baseball thing a few years back. I purchased tickets for it and we didnt get it but, the turnout was good. I hope we get a team so much! L.G.N.M

Edited February 5, 2010 by usermel