Downtown Norfolk Progress

[ronsmytheiii]

http://hamptonroads....new-restaurants

Good article, you should read.

Terrible idea.

Norfolk needs to stop with this idea of purging businesses. Bars have every right to serve patrons. Also chain joints? They really want to take traffic from Virginia beach. Granby needs unique stores/restaurants, not to force out the bars and replace them with a bunch of chains that I can find anywhere in the world. Also people like to complain about Virginia Beach getting in the way of regional cooperation, but this clearly shows Norfolk is equally as partisan.

[varider]

Terrible idea.

Norfolk needs to stop with this idea of purging businesses. Bars have every right to serve patrons. Also chain joints? They really want to take traffic from Virginia beach. Granby needs unique stores/restaurants, not to force out the bars and replace them with a bunch of chains that I can find anywhere in the world. Also people like to complain about Virginia Beach getting in the way of regional cooperation, but this clearly shows Norfolk is equally as partisan.

What's a terrible idea?

Yanking the business liscence from a bar and replacing it with a nice, locally owned, family-oriented restaurant?

Let's face it. The generally accepted image of downtown Norfolk, especially in cities such as Chesapeake, Suffolk, Va Beach, etc., is that it's crime-ridden, dangerous, overrun by housing projects, etc. The crime-ridden stereotype comes from the excessive amount of bars and clubs that line Granby and the late-night homicides that sometimes occur. While nightlife is a neccessity, Granby has to find a mix between the family, youth, and older crowds.

So far I haven't seen anything wrong with what the city has done. BAR Norfolk, HANDC, and Posh were doing nothing positive for the city or it's image.

Every real downtown has a mix of unique stores/restaurants and chains. Those chains can be a big draw and even help the unique ones because they can bring people downtown and create pedestrian traffic.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to "take traffic from Virginia Beach." As long as the city doesn't steal any of the TC chains, everything will be alright. There's a lot of people and $$ that downtown is missing out on. A lot of the 220,000 people in Chesapeake would rather hop on 64 to 264 and drive all the way to Town Center to dine and shop than the quick, non-congested trip up 464.

There's absolutely no reason why the urban center of a region as big as HR should have very little foot traffic on a Saturday afternoon.

[ronsmytheiii]

What's a terrible idea?

Yanking the business liscence from a bar and replacing it with a nice, locally owned, family-oriented restaurant?

Let's face it. The generally accepted image of downtown Norfolk, especially in cities such as Chesapeake, Suffolk, Va Beach, etc., is that it's crime-ridden, dangerous, overrun by housing projects, etc. The crime-ridden stereotype comes from the excessive amount of bars and clubs that line Granby and the late-night homicides that sometimes occur. While nightlife is a necessity, Granby has to find a mix between the family, youth, and older crowds.

So far I haven't seen anything wrong with what the city has done. BAR Norfolk, HANDC, and Posh were doing nothing positive for the city or it's image.

I am not talking about crime ridden bars, I am talking about the ones that have done nothing wrong that the city appears to be trying to get rid of. Granby has always had bars since before World War 2. And just because you have a lot of bars does not mean that a place is crime ridden. Main street Blacksburg has quite a few bars, yet it is not crime infested and is vibrant all day long. What council needs to do is fill the empty stores on Granby and step up police patrols especially in the parking garages. Forcingn out the bars shows that a buisness is subject to the policital whims of the city, and not a good way to attract other buisnesses.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to "take traffic from Virginia Beach." As long as the city doesn't steal any of the TC chains, everything will be alright. There's a lot of people and $ that downtown is missing out on. A lot of the 220,000 people in Chesapeake would rather hop on 64 to 264 and drive all the way to Town Center to dine and shop than the quick, non-congested trip up 464.

There's absolutely no reason why the urban center of a region as big as HR should have very little foot traffic on a Saturday afternoon.

That is exactly what they were talking about. Granby should try to get its own mix of restaurants and not steal chains from Town Center. It is time for the Norfolk City council to come up with something new instead of simply taking things from other places.

[varider]

I guess we will have to disagree?

I think Granby should be 90% retail,restaurants, and residential, 10% bars/clubs. But that's just my opinion.

The City is doing the right thing. I think in the near future we will see a lot of the empty Granby storefronts become occupied with both unique and chain retailers/restaurants and the upper floors residential.You still have the big clubs like Entourage on Bank and the Granby theater place and bars like Velvet. I like the trend.

I dont know why the Pilot only mentioned three new restaurants when there are clearly 5 or 6. (Jack Quinns, Kabab Shack, Jimmy John's, the 219 building, the Bootlegger, etc.)

[Weaver24]

I am not talking about crime ridden bars, I am talking about the ones that have done nothing wrong that the city appears to be trying to get rid of. Granby has always had bars since before World War 2. And just because you have a lot of bars does not mean that a place is crime ridden. Main street Blacksburg has quite a few bars, yet it is not crime infested and is vibrant all day long. What council needs to do is fill the empty stores on Granby and step up police patrols especially in the parking garages. Forcingn out the bars shows that a buisness is subject to the policital whims of the city, and not a good way to attract other buisnesses.

That is exactly what they were talking about. Granby should try to get its own mix of restaurants and not steal chains from Town Center. It is time for the Norfolk City council to come up with something new instead of simply taking things from other places.

I agree with you about forcing bars out. It isn't a good look for the city to force out businesses that aren't directly causing harm. It will cause other businesses and investors not to come to the city to start businesses.

[brikkman]

I really believe some of you guys are truly sheltered, skipping and holding hands type of vibe (no offense). But if you consider the one or two shootings a perception of unsafe "ALL THE TIME", I can not help to believe that you are very sheltered. Granted, guns, fighting, drugs, and all of that at any given time is unacceptable, but what I read in these post and pilot post are some times overboard ( I can take you to places in Norfolk where shooting is a daily occurance).

I can remember three total shootings that happen in DT, and if I am wrong with that exact number, I'm probably in the ball park. People want to give DT a bad name for their own selfish reasons. We can not compare OTP or VTC to DT because it is a different climate and different concentration of people. I think the city council is focused only on being family friendly, BARS are not family friend period. Of course you will find voliations, thats' the type of establishment it is, the problem is how they went about removing them. Blaming them for things that could not be directly related to the bars. I still wouldn't have problem with that if they took that same approach with section 8ers and public assistant/welfare recipents. If it wasn't the fighting and shooting, it would have been some GSA crap or location to the federal building next, time to look else where in Norfolk for approvement and entertainment. Hell, we can have but some many places to "EAT". Mind you, I'm married with kid and do not drink, I do not go out, but I think it should be included in any well off city.

IMO

[urbanlife]

I really believe some of you guys are truly sheltered, skipping and holding hands type of vibe (no offense). But if you consider the one or two shootings a perception of unsafe "ALL THE TIME", I can not help to believe that you are very sheltered. Granted, guns, fighting, drugs, and all of that at any given time is unacceptable, but what I read in these post and pilot post are some times overboard ( I can take you to places in Norfolk where shooting is a daily occurance).

I can remember three total shootings that happen in DT, and if I am wrong with that exact number, I'm probably in the ball park. People want to give DT a bad name for their own selfish reasons. We can not compare OTP or VTC to DT because it is a different climate and different concentration of people. I think the city council is focused only on being family friendly, BARS are not family friend period. Of course you will find voliations, thats' the type of establishment it is, the problem is how they went about removing them. Blaming them for things that could not be directly related to the bars. I still wouldn't have problem with that if they took that same approach with section 8ers and public assistant/welfare recipents. If it wasn't the fighting and shooting, it would have been some GSA crap or location to the federal building next, time to look else where in Norfolk for approvement and entertainment. Hell, we can have but some many places to "EAT". Mind you, I'm married with kid and do not drink, I do not go out, but I think it should be included in any well off city.

IMO

We had a few shooting incidents happens last winter here in downtown Portland, but by no means does that make downtown Portland an unsafe place to go or does that make a need for all of the bars to be pushed out of downtown. Much what is going on here reminds me of when Pioneer Square in Seattle started to change, where the bars that were there started to clash with the new condos and businesses that were coming in...today, the area is nothing like what it use to be, but I honestly think some form of balance was found between the two. If you want a downtown that is a mix use multi active area, then bars are apart of that mix...there is always going to be danger that could happen when you have a number of drunk people together, but it makes no sense trying to force them all out over these isolated incidents.

Also I have to agree, when the city is viewed as bad for business because it will force out anything it doesnt like, it makes it hard for new business to want to try and start up there in fear of being bullied out of business by the city. Though on the same thing, I can see the bars that these shootings happening at being forced out of business...which that makes sense, it is not good to have an establishment that people know by name because of a shooting, regardless of if it is the owners fault or not.

[varider]

Old PDF on downtown construction.

http://www.downtownnorfolk.org/documents/DowntownNorfolkConstructionPlanningOverview.pdf

New PDF called "Downtown Norfolk: the Next Six Months.

http://www.downtownnorfolk.org/documents/DowntownNorfolkNextSixMonths.pdf

[varider]

http://insidebiz.com...-next-big-thing

The condo craze has fizzled in downtown Norfolk. But the apartment craze is about to sizzle.

What do you guys think? Will downtown be able to absorb the continous development of apartments that we've recently seen? Compounded by US Development adding 100 to 150 apartments a year? Now that the current wave of apartment construction (i.e Belmont, 201, Wells Fargo) is beginning to wrap up, do you think that the "apartment craze" could produce another high-rise apartment tower?

Edited January 10, 2010 by varider

[urbanlife]

Apartment buildings absorb into the market much easier than condos do, so i would say all these new apartment units are a good move for the city because it creates actual live units downtown for new people to absorb rather than just those that can afford to buy a new condo. Also, these 7-8 story apartment buildings are great for the city to help create and expand its density...the only thing they need to start doing more is integrating more retail spaces on the ground floor to help curb the number of dead streets the city would have.

[varider]

Do you think that the economic rebound in the construction/real estate sector that is forecast to come by the end of the year will bring about more residential developments in downtown? Maybe another wave coming after Wells Fargo is done and absorbed?

Edited January 10, 2010 by varider

[varider]

Saturday Lunch Hour in Philadelphia

Saturday Lunch Hour in Norfolk

Today when I was downtown around lunch time there was absoulutely nobody on the street. I felt like I was on the set of some movie about an abandoned ghost town city after a nucleur bomb went off or something. I had my pick of street parking spaces, restaurants were empty, and the city kind of looked depressed? In Philadelphia, every single storefront had some sort of business occupying it. These weren't Holllywood, Rodeo Dr., Gucci, Chanel stores.. they were just small business, unique, non-chain boutique type stores, but they did good business and the streets were active and vibrant. Why can't Norfolk be the same way? How come retail is trapped in the mall? Why is Norfolk's most unique street full of Subway, Tropical Smoothie, and stores that don't even open on weekends? Something must be done. I'm tired of this mediocre, sub-par city.Granby has the potential to be vibrant and excting.. but it's just not.

[varider]

Also, I don't understand why Norfolk sees St.Paul's and Brambleton Ave. as huge barriers to downtown development. There's so much land to be developed.. I just don't understand. People say the roads are too wide or the cars move to fast, thus hurting walkability for pedestrians. All you need is a simple crosswalk and stoplight. St. Paul's Blvd. seems like it should have dense development all the way from Waterside to Brambleton... but all that's there is a slow, "ghetto" McDonald's and Popeyes and a gas station? Norfolk needs to build some sidewalks, street parking, and crosswalks and encourage development east of St Paul's.

Broad St. in Philadelphia. Much more hectic than St. Paul's Blvd, yet it doesn't hurt pedestrian connectivity.

[urbanlife]

Sounds like someone had a great trip to Philly....I hate to say it, but that is sort of the reason why I moved out of Hampton Roads...though for me it was a trip to Seattle that caused me to want to move...ending up in Portland was just a happy surprise that has turned out to be the best move I could of made.

[vaceltic]

Also, I don't understand why Norfolk sees St.Paul's and Brambleton Ave. as huge barriers to downtown development. There's so much land to be developed.. I just don't understand. People say the roads are too wide or the cars move to fast, thus hurting walkability for pedestrians. All you need is a simple crosswalk and stoplight. St. Paul's Blvd. seems like it should have dense development all the way from Waterside to Brambleton... but all that's there is a slow, "ghetto" McDonald's and Popeyes and a gas station? Norfolk needs to build some sidewalks, street parking, and crosswalks and encourage development east of St Paul's.

Broad St. in Philadelphia. Much more hectic than St. Paul's Blvd, yet it doesn't hurt pedestrian connectivity.

Not be morbid but, some friends of mine went to the APA conference in Philly a few years back and witnessed a wheelchair-bound lady get run over by a shipping truck when she crossed that street in Philly. No lie

[varider]

Sounds like someone had a great trip to Philly....I hate to say it, but that is sort of the reason why I moved out of Hampton Roads...though for me it was a trip to Seattle that caused me to want to move...ending up in Portland was just a happy surprise that has turned out to be the best move I could of made.

Yeah, I really like Philadelphia.

I'm torn because I really love Hampton Roads and am proud to be from Virginia Beach, yet I want to live in a great urban city with a vibrant center. Part of me keeps holding out hope for Norfolk to become the city that I want it to be.. but the other side of me is like.. Norfolk sucks, it will always just be little ol' Norfolk with a small downtown.

I may have to end up moving to a bigger city like Philadelphia when I graduate.. and then move back to HR when I want to have a family..

[urbanlife]

Yeah, I really like Philadelphia.

I'm torn because I really love Hampton Roads and am proud to be from Virginia Beach, yet I want to live in a great urban city with a vibrant center. Part of me keeps holding out hope for Norfolk to become the city that I want it to be.. but the other side of me is like.. Norfolk sucks, it will always just be little ol' Norfolk with a small downtown.

I may have to end up moving to a bigger city like Philadelphia when I graduate.. and then move back to HR when I want to have a family..

My advice to you with how I see where I live...I am only one person and I only get to live once, therefore why shouldnt I live in cities that are a better fit for me? Portland may not be everyone's cup of tea, but for me I have found it to be a perfect city to be a nerd in...I may not stay here for much longer depending on where I go for my Masters degree, as I would love to live in NYC and Chicago for a little bit as well, but I have found that Portland is always going to be my final target for places to live.

I say this because there is nothing wrong with leaving Hampton Roads for a city that is better fit for you. With the internet the way it is today, it has been very easy for me to keep up on what is going on within that region even though I am over 3000 miles away. I do hope that one day, I might become and architect and have the chance to do some projects within Hampton Roads, but me moving back will not happen in my lifetime because I never felt like I fit in there, nor was the region geared to what I like about cities.

Also to go along with this, I know many people who move away from their hometown, enjoy other cities for a while, then move back to where they grew up to raise a family...call it the Salmon effect if you like (I just made that up, but it does relate.) Go see the ocean because the stream you grew up in will still be there when and if you ever want to come back to it.

[Mobius57]

Hi, I love Hampton Roads, but just like urbanlife probably wont stay. Im starting to like Minneapolis-St.Paul and may move there in the future.

[varider]

Hi, I love Hampton Roads, but just like urbanlife probably wont stay. Im starting to like Minneapolis-St.Paul and may move there in the future.

I couldnt move that far away.. If I left it would be either Philadelphia or New York City where I can hop on the train and come home every once in a while..

But I'm still not sure. I think you can still live the urbanite lifestyle in Hampton Roads, especially in downtown Norfolk with the Market, MacArthur, restaurants, doctors offices, and with LR it should only get more walkable.. Who knows. I've still got two more years of HS and then college to decide.

I really like New York too, but the COL you know..

Anyway, sorry I started this off-topic convorsation.

[usermel]

I say you live once and home isnt were your from. Its were you feel happy at. This area is a family oriented area. Northern VA is more the city type vibe you seek. Washington D.C is a drive away in Alexandria/Arlington area etc. and you get a city vibe there or go to Philly/New York as you said! Move out of town Varider if it makes you happy. Other members seemed to have done the same. Leaving Norfolk/Va Beach to live doesnt mean you dont love it. Just means you LOVE YOU more. Do YOU sir!!!! L.G.N.M

Edited January 18, 2010 by usermel

[vaceltic]

I'm from Va Beach and relocated to Richmond for grad school and decided to stay here. You don't have to move hundreds of miles away to get a more urban lifestyle. Richmond may not have mass transit but has several walkable neighborhoods and a bigger city feel to it. I hope downtown Norfolk keeps moving along well though. The change there since the 80s has been dramatic!

[varider]

I'm from Va Beach and relocated to Richmond for grad school and decided to stay here. You don't have to move hundreds of miles away to get a more urban lifestyle. Richmond may not have mass transit but has several walkable neighborhoods and a bigger city feel to it. I hope downtown Norfolk keeps moving along well though. The change there since the 80s has been dramatic!

I'd take downtown Norfolk over downtown Richmond any day of the week.. but I'd take the Fan over Ghent and VCU over ODU. And I'd take Town Center over Short Pump.Richmond wouldn't suffice for me. I dont get that big city feeel either. I really don't think there is any place in VA where I get that city feel. I'm curious though, if you don't mind, could you tell me what makes downtown Richmond "better" or more "urban" than Norfolk?I'm being serious too. I've been to Richmond's center maybe.. four times? And I haven't seen anything special. Not that I see anything special in Norfolk either. Except when I take a jog through Town Point Park and get to see a enormous cruise ship towering over the city.

[usermel]

Fortunate for you varider is you have 2 more years of high school that remains. Me im 36. Life has a way of changing as you live it. Ask your parents some of these questions as well. Open your mind if you dont already to the advice of those older than you. That said, theres more to cities than skyscrapers etc.! What makes a city is the culture. Ive been around the world and my favorite cities are D.C and Atlanta.While not as BIG as Philly and New York or as glamorous as L.A or Miami. They have very unique sub cultures within the cities. Im African American also, so that means more entertainment and other things that appeal to me. I think its good to experience new places but, suggest to you being older you dont judge a book by its cover. Before I moved back I lived in the New York metro area! It was great. I loved it. Thats said, it was the people I met and the places I went(museums, eateries etc.) that made it enjoyable and the fact I wasnt from there. I met several from New York City who visited here and said how much they loved it here(Norfolk/Va Beach)! <br><br>In a way its almost a grass is greener on the otherside of the world deal when you speak of any persons view of why the like/dont like a place. When I left here what I missed was things like Portside/Waterside. I missed the Oceanfront and the crabbing and fishing here. I missed the HBC's as well(Historically Black Colleges) like Hampton and Norfolk State University!!! I lived in D.C and they have a very BIG metro feel there as well as there own musical culture!! Go-Go is a GEM when in D.C. and the suburbs of VA/MD are very upscale and some may not know but the VA side has some the the richest counties in the nation ranking with California counties and other counties most Americans would expect would be more afluent than VA counties. VA is a place I came back to because of the solid ways of the economy here. Go to California and Michigan and places were the cities are BIGGER and you find big isnt always better. This state has a solid economy due to what we take for granted like the military especially. I feel you though Varider. Your a young man and when your young the world is a place of wonder. GO see it and enjoy. Just dont allow the cover of the book to cloud whats special about the true inside of the book(LIFE) and whats truly important. Took me 36 years to see things this way. I LOVE were im from like those in Philliy and New York and D.C and Atlanta love were there from. Hope you like the box of chocolates you get! <br><br>Much Love fellow member,<br><br>Usermel

Edited January 18, 2010 by usermel

[urbanlife]

I couldnt move that far away.. If I left it would be either Philadelphia or New York City where I can hop on the train and come home every once in a while..

But I'm still not sure. I think you can still live the urbanite lifestyle in Hampton Roads, especially in downtown Norfolk with the Market, MacArthur, restaurants, doctors offices, and with LR it should only get more walkable.. Who knows. I've still got two more years of HS and then college to decide.

I really like New York too, but the COL you know..

Anyway, sorry I started this off-topic convorsation.

My advice to you from someone who just finished their 20s and looking back on the things I wish I would of done. Dont wait too long to start seeing the world, the sooner you start the better. Sometime in your early 20s, plan to take a 6 month trip to someplace (probably europe, but just about any continent would do.) That is something I did not do and my younger friends that I have that did do that have all said once it was done, it was the poorest they have ever been, but the experience they had with it was by far the most amazing thing to learn and take in.

When it comes time for college (if you choose to go, or if you choose to take time off before going. I did, I waited until I was 24 before starting college,) visit as many colleges as you can and see as many cities as you can to really see what you like and where you might want to live. For someone who is use to the lifestyle of Norfolk, Philly does make a great choice. Personally I have never liked Atlanta, and never really got that excited about Charlotte (sort of reminds me of a really big Virginia Beach, but that is just my opinion.) Northern Virginia is another interesting area that has grown drastically over the years that is also an area to consider. As well as Baltimore.

But I think you might get the gist of what I am saying, go see the world while you are young because that is the best time for you to shape yourself and better understand what you want in life, you might even realize that the best place for you is in Hampton Roads.

Also, dont forget about Chicago and the west coast cities...we are pretty damn amazing if I might toot our own horn.

[vaceltic]

I'd take downtown Norfolk over downtown Richmond any day of the week.. but I'd take the Fan over Ghent and VCU over ODU. And I'd take Town Center over Short Pump.Richmond wouldn't suffice for me. I dont get that big city feeel either. I really don't think there is any place in VA where I get that city feel. I'm curious though, if you don't mind, could you tell me what makes downtown Richmond "better" or more "urban" than Norfolk?I'm being serious too. I've been to Richmond's center maybe.. four times? And I haven't seen anything special. Not that I see anything special in Norfolk either. Except when I take a jog through Town Point Park and get to see a enormous cruise ship towering over the city.

Its all perception really. In Richmond, I can drive from Church Hill, through Shockoe Bottom, to Downtown, through Midtown, the fan, Museum District, all the way to Carytown (about a 10 minute drive and be able to walk the whole thing in an hour) and still be in an urban setting. The city has several pocket parks and rolling fields in the middle of the city with monuments, fountains, and walking trails typical of larger parks like Central Park in NYC and Boston Commons. When I used to live in Shockoe Bottom, my apartment was a short ride to several greenway trails that connected the urban neighborhoods to each other by walking and biking trails you could ride for hours without repeating. I can walk to the train station and take a weekend trip to Boston if I wanted to on Amtrak. Downtown was built right around the existing station.

I went to VCU for graduate school and lived in the Fan, where I was never wont for a locally-owned restaurant or bar to walk to, as there are dozens in the Fan, all with their own character and vibe. Each neighborhood district also has a distinct culturally diverse feel to one another. On a daily basis, I run into foreigners speaking other languages whereas Norfolk seems to be your static, homogenous, American military crowd and little else. Richmond has maintained many of its historic districts and buildings right next to new housing and commercial buildings, building off that character. The sheer volume of historic structures still standing makes it a really rich southern city.

Culturally too, the city is much more vibrant than Hampton Roads. There are always live shows to go to, whether it be the National, or a local dive like Bogarts. VCU carries free concerns through their drama and music programs all the time and its Jazz ensemble is nationally recognized as one of the best.

While in no way am I suggesting that Richmond is big enough for everyone, it sure feels more like a vibrant Northeastern city than Hampton Roads and you can go to all these places in a ten mile radius without ever having to step into a car or walking across a deadly highway. Living in both the Norfolk area and Richmond, I can only make my argument through personal experience. I think you would have to spend more than four day trips in Richmond to understand what I am trying to convey because it really takes time to know a city's ins and outs and what it is really all about.

Norfolk and Virginia Beach will accelerate their ability to be more urban with light rail coming. I'm excited about it and can't wait to see what the future holds there! Its where I grew up and funny enough, I come to the Hampton Roads forum, not Richmond, to see what is going on. Someday I will probably move back because I miss being surrounded by all that water and the beach.

Edited January 18, 2010 by vaceltic