Metropolitan, Midtown Redevelopment

[Charlotte_native]

The city is spending millions of dollars to make Stonewall more pedestrian friendly under 277 to Met Midtown. There is no real barrier between this development and uptown except for people who don't live in the area, and for people held up on specific neighborhood boundaries. The only problem is that no one lives in 2nd Ward because the government owns all the land since they kicked out all the poor people. If redeveloped as planned, they would be very complementary.

There isn't a real "barrier" to speak of, but a good 2 blocks of nothing. This inhibits pedestrian traffic. I can't say I am an expert on sociology and why people don't mind walking many blocks past businesses, cafes, and shops, but they will. On the other hand something seems "weird" or maybe unsafe walking through nothingness along busy streets / freeways, to get somewhere. Right or wrong, people just don't like to do it. I think this is quite connected to Dilworth via the greenway (which I actually look forward to, something nice to walk beside!), to Cherry, to parts of Myers Park, plus the immediate folks who live in the project. It doesn't connect well to uptown though -- you have to walk past the aforementioned vacant blocks, a hotel or two, a swim center that doesn't address the street at all, a huge county building with an even more uninviting parking lot, plus the on/off ramps for 277. A bike from center city, probably, would I want to walk, unlikely.

That being said, it is a hellovalot better than Midtown Square and the big vacant movie building but it is far from the project I would have hoped for. A bit too much Phillips Place cheeziness for my taste. I can only imagine the colors they will choose for the faux stucco everywhere.

[dubone]

At the ground breaking a number of months ago, we asked about faux stucco. One of the project's designers said he fought hard and got them to do masonry instead of fake stucco. We'll see if they are going to have to in back on that when it is actually built. But for now, we can assume that the designer was correct.

[Charlotte_native]

At the ground breaking a number of months ago, we asked about faux stucco. One of the project's designers said he fought hard and got them to do masonry instead of fake stucco. We'll see if they are going to have to in back on that when it is actually built. But for now, we can assume that the designer was correct.

For some reason I just see this project getting those horrible colors that are all over Ballantyne, Phillips Place, that project across from Park Road Shopping Center. Lots of coral colors on faux stucco that would still be ugly in Miami -- but I am waiting to be pleasantly surprised.

[schmopperX]

In Charlotte, North Carolina. Many many times. If adding more roads didn't work, there would be no need to spend a lot of money to build mass transit as Charlotte is presently doing.

Are you serious? You actually believe that the money we're spending on mass transit is because we've tried in the past to "Pave our way out of congestion"?

We've never tried to widen the roads in the areas needed, at least never truly tried. The mass transit plan, is going to do NOTHING for Charlotte's traffic problems. Even if the heavens opened up and money started falling from the sky to pay for ALL of our mass transit needs it would NEVER put a dent in our traffic problems.

If you think that it will your living in OZ.

I lived Portland, OR for 6 years, (talk about mass transit friendly) & still it took me an hour to get to work and I lived 20 miles away. Nearest Max line to my house was 10 min, then 20 min to ride the train, then 15 min. to walk to work after that = 45 min. Then I woulda been trapped with no car, & no way to get home in case of an emergency.

People won't ride unless they live directly on the line. However, for ball games & uptown events on the weekends, it would be great. One more great thing would be a line to the AIRPORT, so people could get downtown & back to their plane, but you see we're not moving in that direction either.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the utopian idea of mass transit, but it's not realistic.

A city the size of Charlotte NEEDS wider/smarter/more roads.

[AuLukey]

I'm assuming that living 20 miles from the heart of Portland means you also knew you would be driving for at least an hour during rush hour. Of course mass transit will never "cure" any major city's traffic woes. It will just help direct growth. By living next to or along the transit lines, you effectively get rid of that extra "15 minutes to get there" travel time you're talking about. You eliminate the need to stop for gas and parking costs. You aren't really stuck without a car. In emergencies, there are things called taxis which, in cities with larger mass transit systems, are much more commonplace. If it's a true emergency, cost shouldn't matter. I'm sure you know this and I'm probably preaching to the choir on here, but when you say that it's not realistic, I'm just a little shocked. Growth will continue to happen, but if this growth is built up along transit lines instead of randomly, that growth will rely more heavily on the transit system, thus not creating as large of an impact on our roads. That's the entire idea. Like I said before, mass transit isn't supposed to get rid of the problem, it is just supposed to maintain that our traffic doesn't get too uncontrollable.

[dubone]

At least try to tie it back in to the subject of this thread, guys!

[schmopperX]

I'm assuming that living 20 miles from the heart of Portland means you also knew you would be driving for at least an hour during rush hour. Of course mass transit will never "cure" any major city's traffic woes. It will just help direct growth. By living next to or along the transit lines, you effectively get rid of that extra "15 minutes to get there" travel time you're talking about. You eliminate the need to stop for gas and parking costs. You aren't really stuck without a car. In emergencies, there are things called taxis which, in cities with larger mass transit systems, are much more commonplace. If it's a true emergency, cost shouldn't matter. I'm sure you know this and I'm probably preaching to the choir on here, but when you say that it's not realistic, I'm just a little shocked. Growth will continue to happen, but if this growth is built up along transit lines instead of randomly, that growth will rely more heavily on the transit system, thus not creating as large of an impact on our roads. That's the entire idea. Like I said before, mass transit isn't supposed to get rid of the problem, it is just supposed to maintain that our traffic doesn't get too uncontrollable.

Well put. I agree it is an important tool to direct growth. My point being that although people may decide to move along the light rail line, and decide to use it, this won't help our current situation. The freeways thru a city of this size really need to be more than 6 lanes wide.

That's the problem in Portland. GREAT mass transit, small freeways, still the conjestion is there, it's no better than Charlotte, for all the Money they've spent.

You are correct about the emergency situation, it's giving up that control of knowing your car is right there.

It's kinda like the theory of the car pool lane, despite the fact that it's worked nowhere, we still built one, it doesn't make anyone want to carpool, it's just a lane that sits there unused. They aren't used in most metro areas out west and they're a whole heck of alot more apt to accept the idea than we are around here.

Any way I like the discussion but I'm sure we're way way off topic Midtown Redevelopement, which I'm very excited about.

[Seabreeze]

i totally agree with dubones post. go to the transit thread or something.

[monsoon]

From 2003

Charlotte

• Population - 584,658
  
• Area - 242 sq miles
  
• Density - 2,232 people sq/mile
  

Portland

• Population - 538,544
  
• Area - 134 sq miles
  
• Density - 3,939
  

Portland's density has been rising for the last 20 years and the transit system along with their urban growth boundries have been cited as the reasons behind this.

Charlotte's density has been falling for the last 30 years as it continues to sprawl in low density development. There are essentially no plans to restrict and manage growth.

Portland is usually cited as one of the 10 best places in USA to live. Charlotte usually ranks at the bottom of most lists because of it's high air pollution, the danger to pedestrians, and the fact that its people are less healty than the average in the USA. Somehow, I don't think building even more freeways in the city is going to make this better.

[dubone]

a) If density is good, and is still liveable, then what is wrong with intense infill development like Metropolitan Midtown.

b) The streetcar, which Portland uses to support and generate density, is being planned for central Charlotte. Based on the numbers in the 2006 Quality of Life study, the neighborhoods that are directly adjacent to the planned streetcar line have a total population of 62,090 people and in a density of 4215 people/sq. mi. That means, central Charlotte is as dense as Portland, and would likely support streetcar. Note that that is before the planned developments uptown, in Midtown, in Elizabeth, in Plaza-Midwood, and in Morningside, which will add thousands of additional people in the same area.

But I agree, that most people still love Portland, because its density allows it to support many things that its pure population would not likely.

It is for this very reason that I strongly support the central Charlotte infill, including intense infill like Metropolitan, and the streetcar line that supports the existing density and helps to add onto it significantly.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Neighb...f+Life/home.htm

[monsoon]

We have already beat that horse. Midtown is basically a strip mall with a condo added on. It is Pappa's routine recipe that people fall over to support, then once he is gone, they complain what it does to the area's traffic. It's another reason the center city remains void of retail.

As long as the city continues to allow development anywhere in this city and refuses to say no, then the planning document you cited remains just that a document. There have been billions of dollars of retail added to this city since 2000, but somehow aside from an express Harris Teeter, all of it continues to bypass the downtown area. (and continues to do so) The proof in what I say is in the pudding.

[Miesian Corners]

For some reason I just see this project getting those horrible colors that are all over Ballantyne, Phillips Place, that project across from Park Road Shopping Center. Lots of coral colors on faux stucco that would still be ugly in Miami -- but I am waiting to be pleasantly surprised.

Nah, the project is fairly modern. Lots of exposed steel and aluminum, precast concrete, and brick.

Grubb is doing (IMO) a much better project on Elizabeth. Different architects, different building scales, and better connectivity. It will look much more "real" than the Pappas' project. By the way, Grubb closed on the Burger King property a couple of weeks ago. Expect the new BK on 4th to start construction soon so that demo for Whole Foods can begin by November.

[voyager12]

Portland also has a defined and mostly enforced Urban Growth Boundary. This helps to keep dense development around the urban core and protect the surrounding countryside. Of course its not perfect and some spillover has occurred but it has helped to alleviate massive sprawl. Too late for Charlotte to attempt this. The barn door did not open, but blew off its hinges far too long ago to try it now. I think Metropolitan will be a nice looking project and offers some connectivity via the greenway for those of us who live nearby, but like Philips Place and Birkdale it will function as a faux "downtown". Sure you will be able to walk to all the stores in the development. But almost everyone will be forced to drive there and use their huge parking garages in what is supposed to be "Midtown" part of the walkable urban fabric of Charlotte. Not.

Edited September 19, 2006 by voyager12

[dubone]

We have already beat that horse. Midtown is basically a strip mall with a condo added on. It is Pappa's routine recipe that people fall over to support, then once he is gone, they complain what it does to the area's traffic. It's another reason the center city remains void of retail.

As long as the city continues to allow development anywhere in this city and refuses to say no, then the planning document you cited remains just that a document. There have been billions of dollars of retail added to this city since 2000, but somehow aside from an express Harris Teeter, all of it continues to bypass the downtown area. (and continues to do so) The proof in what I say is in the pudding.

I'm not sure what the dead horse was, so I don't know how to avoid beating it.

To me, density is a major goal for the city, and the central section of Charlotte IS already fairly dense. It is the middle and outer ring sections of the city that has low density. And the only way to make up for this low density, to sustain larger populations in this the city as the region grows is to build dense urban infill.

That infill should along transit corridors, just like Midtown is, or near employment centers so that walking, biking, and short automobile trips are options, just like Midtown is.

I don't even know what the debate is, sometimes, when these types of projects are written off because they have an oblique parallel to a negative suburban design. They might have those parallels or similarities, as they are attempting to appeal to the middle class that overwhelmingly chooses suburban life over urban life. To entice these types of people to buy into urban life, they are attempting to deliver suburban convenience in a denser, more urban fashion.

Can we find 5 things that make it similar to a strip mall? Yes. Can we find 5 things that make it similar to mcmansions? Yes. Can we find 5 things that make less than urbanist ideals? Yes. Can we expect that most people will drive to half their trips? Yes.

But, it supports population density, it brings major retail downtown, it significantly reduces car trips for people living in central Charlotte, it is officially within the transit corridor, it is within walking/biking distance of office towers, it is on a greenway, it has a vertical mixture of uses, it avoids surface parking lots, it restores the tax base on valuable land, and so on.

There are definitely flaws with this project, but it is a project that is important to significant numbers of people that sacrifice in their lives in order to live a more urban lifestyle.

And the pudding says, big box retail now has found the numbers to build in the inner city. We're not going to get local mom-and-pop retail organizations scattered throughout thousands of little street-facing buildings. I want it, and everyone on this board wants it. But the econonomics just don't work. Grubb has tried hard to get that to work just a mile away from this project. But he can't get it off the ground.

To have retail downtown, it must be large national brands, and we haven't even been able to get that until Pappas came through.

I'm personally convinced that having these major national retailers downtown (or just outside) will be a major draw, bringing thousands more people downtown than would have even considered it. I'm also convinced that thousands of poorer people will take the streetcar from Beatties Ford and Central Ave to shop at Target and Marshalls, walking those treacherous 3 blocks of greenway with tall mature trees, flowers, a babbling stream, and art between the streetcar station at Kings/Elizabeth and the Met-Midtown project.

[Charlotte_native]

And the pudding says, big box retail now has found the numbers to build in the inner city. We're not going to get local mom-and-pop retail organizations scattered throughout thousands of little street-facing buildings. I want it, and everyone on this board wants it. But the econonomics just don't work. Grubb has tried hard to get that to work just a mile away from this project. But he can't get it off the ground.

To have retail downtown, it must be large national brands, and we haven't even been able to get that until Pappas came through.

I'm personally convinced that having these major national retailers downtown (or just outside) will be a major draw, bringing thousands more people downtown than would have even considered it. I'm also convinced that thousands of poorer people will take the streetcar from Beatties Ford and Central Ave to shop at Target and Marshalls, walking those treacherous 3 blocks of greenway with tall mature trees, flowers, a babbling stream, and art between the streetcar station at Kings/Elizabeth and the Met-Midtown project.

This could also be the catalyst for more national retail and other large retail in center city. If these have numbers that show success and profit, those businesses on the fence about committing to uptown might be able to justify the investment.

[dubone]

In good news for those of us who are excited about this project, there is a new equity investor in this project. It will speed up the building of it.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/15665067.htm

[atlrvr]

For bad news, it's the developer of the Renwick site, so those who bought should be expecting their contract cancellation notices any day now.

[swh1972]

For bad news, it's the developer of the Renwick site, so those who bought should be expecting their contract cancellation notices any day now.

[monsoon]

For bad news, it's the developer of the Renwick site, so those who bought should be expecting their contract cancellation notices any day now.

Seems they got the very very top dollar from the people that bought condos in the Met. Maybe this is why they are canceling the Renwick condos. Not good for peeps in either place.

[dubone]

Ha, that is funny. I didn't notice that it was the same group.

At least they understand the negatives of construction delays from the Renwick, as inflation is very real in that industry. They'll speed up both projects and figure out how to squeeze more money from the Renwick people that bought many moons ago.

[uptownliving]

Well at least Cololnial will not be handeling the Residential part of Met Midtown...Pappas will retain control of that. Does anyone know if Pappas has a history of canceling contracts on residential buildings. I don't think that is going to happen in this case...just wondering if they have in the past.

[monsoon]

Birkdale Village is all apartments so that wasn't an issue there. I think his other project Phillips Place was built so long ago it wasn't a question.

[atlrvr]

I agree, I think they bought into this project because of the high-profit margin already there, and knowing that a quick completion will help minimize the risk of even greater cost inflation.

They are however primarily an office developer, so they do serve a functional purpose as well.

[uptownliving]

Met Midtown got its Footing/Foundation building permits approved yesterday. Construction will start very soon.

They are also making great progress on the Target/EXPO. The parking deck is just about complete and all the exterior walls are up at the Target/EXPO.

[dubone]

When is that part expected to be completed and the stores opened?

Met Midtown got its Footing/Foundation building permits approved yesterday. Construction will start very soon.

They are also making great progress on the Target/EXPO. The parking deck is just about complete and all the exterior walls are up at the Target/EXPO.