Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[carolina1792]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

Yea, kinda. The lack of double track funds for the NCRR east of Gboro was not a political decision, it was due to the light freight traffic east of Greensboro.   But, if the state ever wants to see useful commuter rail in the Triangle and Greensboro areas (and they SHOULD) then everything between Gboro and Raleigh needs double track -- plus station sidings for high platforms.

Its still 30 years away, but I would not be surprised if NS has already started to make noise about not renewing their NCRR lease for any tracks east of Greensboro. I don't believe a partial lease has ever come before up for the NCRR and I wonder how much hardball the NCRR would be able or willing to play with NS. Unfortunately, its unlikely that any other Class 1 would want the lease, and its also very unlikely that NCRR / NCDOT want to pay for the line's maintenance. If NCDOT can show strong demand for pax service, I could imagine a Brightline style company leasing the NCRR (and selling freight rights on the side). 

 

I believe the CAMPO's effort for commuter rail is designed with zero assistance from the state due to the NCGA's efforts to kill any state assistance. It's all local and federal money.  I'm sure the NCGA will take credit once it's built. 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 9/21/2020 at 9:11 PM, carolina1792 said:

I believe the CAMPO's effort for commuter rail is designed with zero assistance from the state due to the NCGA's efforts to kill any state assistance. It's all local and federal money.  I'm sure the NCGA will take credit once it's built. 

CAMPO is useless.  It had a chance to support commuter rail but dropped the ball in the early 2000s.  We were working with NCRR, NS, and the state for commuter rail from Wilson to Raleigh to Goldsboro.  NS was even interested in the option to operate the passenger service.  CAMPO, and TTA killed it.  CAMPO just sucks money from rural areas because it hasn't figured out that development follows transportation and Raleigh, Cary, and the rest of Wake County can't keep their heads out of the asses of developers and planners can't design a square box much less know anything about urban design.  Sorry, have not been a fan of the CAMPO team since working for the City of Raleigh in the 1990s when it was essentially a two-person operation driving sprawl.  Bitter, table for one.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Phillydog

[CLTranspo]

28 minutes ago, Phillydog said:

CAMPO is useless.  It had a chance to support commuter rail but dropped the ball in the early 2000s.  We were working with NCRR, NS, and the state for commuter rail from Wilson to Raleigh to Goldsboro.  NS was even interested in the option to operate the passenger service.  CAMPO, and TTA killed it.  CAMPO just sucks money from rural areas because it hasn't figured out that development follows transportation and Raleigh, Cary, and the rest of Wake County can't keep their heads out of the asses of developers and planners can't design a square box much less know anything about urban design.  Sorry, have not been a fan of the CAMPO team since working for the City of Raleigh in the 1990s when it was essentially a two-person operation driving sprawl.  Bitter, table for one.

Let me just say I have colleagues who have left CAMPO prior and I understand 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Just now, CLTranspo said:

Let me just say I have colleagues who have left CAMPO prior and I understand 

It's sad.  Very sad.  Especially when you compare to Charlotte MPO, which is light years ahead in terms of thinking and action.  Cheers!

[Third Strike]

Developing New Amtrak Corridors

Expanding the U.S. Passenger Market:

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/16610/september_23_-_new_corridors.pdf
 

 

[Hushpuppy321]

4 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Developing New Amtrak Corridors

Expanding the U.S. Passenger Market:

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/16610/september_23_-_new_corridors.pdf
 

 

Thanks for sharing that

[KJHburg]

is this correct Nashville with all those rail lines converging on the city has no Amtrak service?  that is crazy.  I would have thought they would have service to Chicago and Atlanta already.  

I do wish Charlotte had service straight south maybe connect in Savannah then on to Florida.  

[kermit]

30 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

is this correct Nashville with all those rail lines converging on the city has no Amtrak service?  that is crazy.  I would have thought they would have service to Chicago and Atlanta already.  

I do wish Charlotte had service straight south maybe connect in Savannah then on to Florida.  

The Floridian connected Chicago to Florida via Louisville and Nashville. The train was discontinued in 1979 due to deteriorating track conditions on the host railroads. This left both cities without any passenger service since, and no direct connection between Chicago and Florida. Most of the tracks that the Floridian ran on have since been abandoned and torn out.

Amtrak has considered changing the route of the Silver Star (train between NYC and Miami), to run from Raleigh to Charlotte before it turns south towards Columbia and points beyond -- this would give us a daily connection to Columbia and Savannah on to Florida as well as another train connecting us to Raleigh. I suspect that Amtrak will reconsider this route change via Charlotte when the S-Line and Gateway station opens. It is also possible that CSX may downgrade or sell the tracks the Star currently runs on South of Cary (these tracks are also part of the S (Seaboard)-Line). A Charlotte reroute would certainly increase ridership, but this would require a new station in Columbia (not easy).

Three trains a day (two plus the Star) between Charlotte and Columbia would be a VERY useful addition to our route network, alas South Carolina has gotta be South Carolina...

Edited October 2, 2020 by kermit

[RugbyPike#11]

They should at least run a train between Charlotte and Columbia for home games during college football season. 

[ertley]

THIS

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I do wish Charlotte had service straight south maybe connect in Savannah then on to Florida.  

and THIS

14 hours ago, kermit said:

Amtrak has considered changing the route of the Silver Star (train between NYC and Miami), to run from Raleigh to Charlotte before it turns south towards Columbia and points beyond -- this would give us a daily connection to Columbia and Savannah on to Florida as well as another train connecting us to Raleigh. I suspect that Amtrak will reconsider this route change via Charlotte when the S-Line and Gateway station opens. It is also possible that CSX may downgrade or sell the tracks the Star currently runs on South of Cary (these tracks are also part of the S (Seaboard)-Line). A Charlotte reroute would certainly increase ridership, but this would require a new station in Columbia (not easy).

Three trains a day (two plus the Star) between Charlotte and Columbia would be a VERY useful addition to our route network, alas South Carolina has gotta be South Carolina...

A route straight from Charlotte to Columbia would be so comparatively easy, I mean, it's a straight shot--literally, if you go along I 77--and most of that land is still arable and not developed, so cost, if needed, of any right of way acquisition would be minimal (comparatively). 

Charlotte and and its metropolitan area leaders need to lean hard on South Carolina leadership and get them to really understand that what's good for Charlotte is good for upper South Carolina, and having Charlotte and Columbia connected by a--what?--45 minute?--express train ride would be win-win-win. 

Wouldn't it be possible for those same tracks to be utilized for commuter rail during rush hours? People could easily live as far south as Chester County and travel up to Charlotte if the train only made stops during rush hour, say, in Chester, Rock Hill, *maybe* one other around Fort Mill/Pineville and then into Gateway...

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, ertley said:

THIS

and THIS

A route straight from Charlotte to Columbia would be so comparatively easy, I mean, it's a straight shot--literally, if you go along I 77--and most of that land is still arable and not developed, so cost, if needed, of any right of way acquisition would be minimal (comparatively). 

Charlotte and and its metropolitan area leaders need to lean hard on South Carolina leadership and get them to really understand that what's good for Charlotte is good for upper South Carolina, and having Charlotte and Columbia connected by a--what?--45 minute?--express train ride would be win-win-win. 

Wouldn't it be possible for those same tracks to be utilized for commuter rail during rush hours? People could easily live as far south as Chester County and travel up to Charlotte if the train only made stops during rush hour, say, in Chester, Rock Hill, *maybe* one other around Fort Mill/Pineville and then into Gateway...

The route being considered is on the existing NS tracks which run from the airport, down along the Blue Line to Fort Mill and Rock Hill. Nobody is discussing new build HSR here. The big problem with the route is that it serves as an important connection for the new intermodal yard and NS does not want it to be gummed up. NS issues aside, the route would make for fine commuter service to Rock Hill.

[King of the Queen City]

My understanding is that the only two Amtrak stations in Tennessee are along the western border / Mississippi River in Memphis and Newbern-Dryersburg.  Sad that you can’t take a train to Nashville or even the historic rail city of Chattanooga. Thankful we have Amtrak in Charlotte. Even though the current station is not much to speak of, it does have a nice view of the skyline.  There are a number of people in Charlotte who do not even realize we have this service (or just don’t think about it) but Gateway Station will bring more attention to it. Being able to get off the train in Uptown will make a big difference.

 

[RugbyPike#11]

I know at least one York County Councilman believes that the NS line is a non-starter, and would prefer a blue line extension to Rock Hill despite the much higher cost and what would be an excessively long commute from Rock Hill to uptown.  He also seemed annoyed that one of his more progressive friends poo-pooed a blue line extension, and noted that the heavily GOP leaning council would need some convincing to attempt a multi-billion light rail project.  They might still have an outside chance depending on how the November council election turns out, but I think YCC is shifting further to the right even as the spillover effects from Charlotte are making the residents shift slightly more progressive. At the very least, it sounded like they were  going to order another YC to Charlotte transit study after the last one became stale, but with the way the primary shook out, I think that may be in doubt.

All that being said, a light rail extension would really help YC create more density in pockets, even if it’s not that useful or efficient for commuting to Charlotte.  A commuter train with fewer stops would be better for commuting and cheaper if NS plays along, and a continuous route from Mooresville to Rock Hill through Gateway, possibly with an airport stop, would add a lot of connectivity in the extended metro. 

If it’s true that Charlotte could benefit from even a small shift in preferences away from the highest density cities, we’re going to need to start moving people a heck of a lot more efficiently. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by RugbyPike#11

[Matthew.Brendan]

MetroNorth trains leaving Grand Central Terminal on the Harlem line travel as far north as 90 miles to Wasaic NY. The New Haven line also leaving GCT arrives Waterbury CT at nearly the same distance.

Atlanta has built it's mini-opolis devoted entirely around the automobile despite having heavy rail for decades. Yes, MARTA is better these days. Sort of? The city is at least supporting some development around the stations now.

Charlotte can absolutely be the 21st century South-East capital if they build it with smart modern trains. Do a 40 or 60 mile sweep and see what comes into view.

[NcSc74]

On 10/3/2020 at 9:30 AM, Matthew.Brendan said:

MetroNorth trains leaving Grand Central Terminal on the Harlem line travel as far north as 90 miles to Wasaic NY. The New Haven line also leaving GCT arrives Waterbury CT at nearly the same distance.

Atlanta has built it's mini-opolis devoted entirely around the automobile despite having heavy rail for decades. Yes, MARTA is better these days. Sort of? The city is at least supporting some development around the stations now.

Charlotte can absolutely be the 21st century South-East capital if they build it with smart modern trains. Do a 40 or 60 mile sweep and see what comes into view.

I agree.  Why not enhance  CLT as the leisure and travel hub.  Meaning, utilize commuter rail as a gateway travel to the mountains and beaches within reason.  How far are the foothill towns in the Blue Ridge?  I think it would be a win-win.  Whatever town is the western terminus for the blue ridge express from CLT would gain economy from tourist connecting from there and Gateway station can capilize on the constant use.  On the flip side, commuter rail to the southeast could be huge as well.  In addition to north thru the metro all the way up the fringes of the Triad. I often think of thses things when taking short plane rides.  Like from OKC to Dallas.  How much easier it would be to jump on a regional train for 2 hours than to go thru all the crap of an airport for a 45 minute flight.

[kermit]

On 10/11/2020 at 10:45 AM, NcSc74 said:

I agree.  Why not enhance  CLT as the leisure and travel hub.  Meaning, utilize commuter rail as a gateway travel to the mountains and beaches within reason.  How far are the foothill towns in the Blue Ridge?  I think it would be a win-win.  Whatever town is the western terminus for the blue ridge express from CLT would gain economy from tourist connecting from there and Gateway station can capilize on the constant use.  On the flip side, commuter rail to the southeast could be huge as well.  In addition to north thru the metro all the way up the fringes of the Triad. I often think of thses things when taking short plane rides.  Like from OKC to Dallas.  How much easier it would be to jump on a regional train for 2 hours than to go thru all the crap of an airport for a 45 minute flight.

I completely agree this would be a worthwhile strategy for Charlotte and NC to pursue. Unfortunately our existing rail network is not well suited to connecting Charlotte to the Blue Ridge. Our best option is for service from CLT to Spartanburg and then up to Hendersonville and Asheville via the Saluda grade (Purple and dashed green on map). This would be (by far) the fastest service to the mountains, although Saluda grade (dashed green) has been shut down for a while and would require tons of work. Add in the standard intransigence from SC on passenger rail support and you can see why this solid option is unlikely.  On the plus side, I am sure NS would be happy to sell the route from SPG north (the grade and the Southern approach to Asheville), but they would be less thrilled letting new pax trains onto their main (a CLT-ATL passenger rail corridor could help fix that problem).  As a bonus, Hendersonville service would provide access to the Brevard spur, which was in VERY good shape (new welded rail) when NS decided to stop using it a few years ago.

The other two existing mountain routes are the CSX up to Marion and Spruce Pine (blue) or the soon to be sold NS Asheville branch (green) to Salisbury (requires Charlotte passengers to backtrack to Salisbury). The problem with both of these routes is the loops they use to get up the mountain would make any passenger service unbearably slow and unable to compete with auto/bus or air. These tracks could certainly improve tourism in foothills towns  like Morgantown, Marion and (from a spur) Lenoir, but its hard to see enough riders to justify the service without an Asheville anchor. Unfortunately both of these routes are sub-optimal for Charlotte passengers as well due to their round-about routings.

Spending a few billion on some new rail tunnels going up the Mountain could make us the Switzerland of North America, unfortunately no one making decisions has that much foresight. This lack of foresight is doubly unfortunate since the Mountains are going to see very rough economic times shortly when all the boomer retirement home owners begin to die or move closer to medical care.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by kermit

[Blue_Devil]

Is there a render of what the first phase is supposed to look like? 

[TGIBridays]

20 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

Is there a render of what the first phase is supposed to look like? 

Page 54 and following of this document has the best rendering I've found.  Though I don't know how out of date this is since it's from 2017.

https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/charlotte-gateway-station/Documents/CGS MSAP - Final Report.pdf

[kermit]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:51 PM, Blue_Devil said:

Is there a render of what the first phase is supposed to look like? 

The developer for the Gateway District was just selected in June. I believe the only developer requirements from the city are for ‘a station’ to be built -- the design is up to the developer. So I would not expect any renderings of the station until we hear about the Gateway District site plans. I think a couple of UPers have seen the sketch plans for the district and they were VERY impressed, but AFAIK the plans are still top secret.

IF I remember the stage 1 contruction plans correctly then I think we will see the platform and the fancy suspended platform canopy appear in the next couple of months.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2020/06/04/developer-finally-on-board-for-gateway-station.html

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by kermit

[Cityplanner]

I'm all for commuter trains but let's remember what they do well: moving large numbers of people to a dense area.  Bringing people into uptown Charlotte is a good use of commuter trains.

What they don't do well is move people fast.  Commuter trains usually stop every few miles and their average trip times are pretty slow: often around 30 mph.  A particularly slow one is NY Penn Station to Dover, NJ: about 40 miles, and 90 minutes by train.   That means Charlotte to Greenville, SC would be about 3 hours and 15 minutes.  It's simply not competitive with driving and in the Carolinas, where basically everyone has a car, ridership at that speed would be low.

To have trains that are fast enough to be competitive with driving and flying takes improving the tracks and often having a separate right-of-way, stations with high-level platforms and, ideally, electrification.  I'm all for it, but the cost for a trip between Greenville and Charlotte is likely more than governments these days are willing to spend. 

The Piedmonts and Carolinian are pretty cost-effective: somewhat improved tracks and some stations with high-level platforms.  Building more routes like them is probably the most realistic, if people are intending to have intercity trains.

[kermit]

This is a longshot but... A track realignment project in downtown Columbia gives the city the opportunity to relocate their rail station -- this would make it much more likely for Amtrak to reroute the Silver Star through Charlotte (the current Columbia station is not easily accessed from the NS tracks which come from Charlotte). This would not only give us a connection to Columbia but also Florida service (and a third NYC train)

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/columbia-rail-congestion-fix-gaining-steam-after-decades-of-delays-for-motorists/article_d9b66e6e-236e-11eb-b153-77478eb9f14f.html

Having said all that, I doubt station relocation is on Columbia's radar, and its South Carolina,  so.... longshot....

Edited November 12, 2020 by kermit

[gman430]

[j-man]

When will the buildings apart of this development, whatever they are start construction? And are there any recent renderings because it’s been like 2 years since last update. 

[CLT Development]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:16 PM, j-man said:

When will the buildings apart of this development, whatever they are start construction? And are there any recent renderings because it’s been like 2 years since last update. 

last rendering was not the plan, it was just an RFP rendering, it'll look MUCH different. Nothing will be announced until theres a vaccine being distributed. 

[15895]

All I ask for is a decent train schedule.... 

This 2am horse crap and 500 years to get to the northeast corridor is so useless. Especially when flights are more cheap and much faster...

I know it’s part of the railroad companies but still...