Misc. Uptown Projects/News

[kermit]

41 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

 

Interesting.

How can MHI in 2'nd  be so high then? The group homes are counted in pop but not income averaging?

3rd ward count can't be right can it? If we assume 80% occupancy across the Mint plus the 3 high rises and  2 low rises that alone would be over 3K wouldn't it?

2nd ward incomes: Michael Jordan and other _very_ wealthy people live in 2nd (EDIT: see my revision above, it does not appear that the inmates are included in the population figure)

3rd ward correctness: First, the data are from Q1 2016 (apparently I need to update my subscription) so the newer multi-family are not included. Second, small area demographic data are only 'right' once a decade (and we don't get to see that data until about two years after it is collected. Demographics at this scale are filled with all kinds of distortions and errors, but most people just ignore them. This particular data source is used by about 1/3 of the retail location industry (discount retailers and grocery stores are particularly fond of synergos data), so if the data were more current these numbers would be viewed as gospel by those industries (but this is not the same thing as saying the numbers would be 'right').

Edited October 20, 2017 by kermit

[Cadi40]

Just shows population outlooks in case anyone was interested, Looks all good to me :-)

 

http://www.ncleg.net/documentsites/committees/house2015-172/2-22-16_Meeting/Demographic_Trends_through_2035.pdf

[CLTProductions]

There is now a road hump/cross walk on Tryon crossing from Wells Plaza to the front door of Latta Arcade. I'll take it, CERTAINLY forces cars to slow down.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

8 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

There is now a road hump/cross walk on Tryon crossing from Wells Plaza to the front door of Latta Arcade. I'll take it, CERTAINLY forces cars to slow down.

Nice!  Wouldn't mind them putting one from Latta Arcade to Romare either.  There's always a ton of foot traffic there and cars dont seem to slow down/yield to the crosswalk. 

[elrodvt]

Hip Hip Hooray! What stops them from putting in flashing triggered yield signs at heavily used crosswalks as well?  I can't think of any downtown off hand but when I go up to games at Davidson I pass several there.

[jtmonk]

Can't think of any downtown either but I do know of one UPTOWN that is at W 6th Street and Pine where Harris Teeter is. 

[pathb]

1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

There is now a road hump/cross walk on Tryon crossing from Wells Plaza to the front door of Latta Arcade. I'll take it, CERTAINLY forces cars to slow down.

Excellent news!  I was *hoping* that was what I saw being installed on Sunday...

20 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

Can't think of any downtown either but I do know of one UPTOWN that is at W 6th Street and Pine where Harris Teeter is. 

How does this one work?  Given that it is fully signalized, an installation like an RRFB seems unlikely.  I've never seen it activated, but have taken a photo of the Lightguard Systems product embedded in the asphalt.  Assumed it was leftover from before that intersection was signalized, perhaps.  

[elrodvt]

I want steel posts to pop when the button is pressed like at the bank loading dock entrances. ;-)

[SgtCampsalot]

(It's amazing that) this feels like a revolutionary achievement in Uptown

[jtmonk]

17 minutes ago, pathb said:

Excellent news!  I was *hoping* that was what I saw being installed on Sunday...

How does this one work?  Given that it is fully signalized, an installation like an RRFB seems unlikely.  I've never seen it activated, but have taken a photo of the Lightguard Systems product embedded in the asphalt.  Assumed it was leftover from before that intersection was signalized, perhaps.  

The intersection of W 6th and Pine had the signals added recently,  before that they had just a crosswalk with flashing lights embedded in the street.  

[Spartan]

5 hours ago, elrodvt said:

Hip Hip Hooray! What stops them from putting in flashing triggered yield signs at heavily used crosswalks as well?  I can't think of any downtown off hand but when I go up to games at Davidson I pass several there.

The short story is that they don't actually do anything to slow traffic down, they break a lot, and generally difficult to maintain (resurfacing, snow plows, etc). So basically, its a super expensive toy to give pedestrians a false sense of security.

I walked by earlier this week to check out the new raised crossing on Tryon, and it looks to me like yielding behavior is almost perfect without any enhancements.

 

 

[elrodvt]

32 minutes ago, Spartan said:

The short story is that they don't actually do anything to slow traffic down, they break a lot, and generally difficult to maintain (resurfacing, snow plows, etc). So basically, its a super expensive toy to give pedestrians a false sense of security.

I walked by earlier this week to check out the new raised crossing on Tryon, and it looks to me like yielding behavior is almost perfect without any enhancements.

 

 

Is that your personal opinion or is there data to back that up? It surprises me as I see people stop for flashing triggered yields in Davidson quickly.

BTW, regarding breaking and maintaining, I didn't necessarily mean the one's in the road. If memory serves they just have large signs that flash. For Church to Romare I think that would help. Virtually no one will stop there. I like the idea of combining both approaches myself. Plus possibly hiring a police officer to do traffic patrol in the city of charlotte. ;-)

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

Is that your personal opinion or is there data to back that up? It surprises me as I see people stop for flashing triggered yields in Davidson quickly.

BTW, regarding breaking and maintaining, I didn't necessarily mean the one's in the road. If memory serves they just have large signs that flash. For Church to Romare I think that would help. Virtually no one will stop there. I like the idea of combining both approaches myself. Plus possibly hiring a police officer to do traffic patrol in the city of charlotte. ;-)

He's a transportation planner by trade. So there's your answer lol.

[elrodvt]

Hah, well OK then.

[Spartan]

21 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

Is that your personal opinion or is there data to back that up? It surprises me as I see people stop for flashing triggered yields in Davidson quickly.

BTW, regarding breaking and maintaining, I didn't necessarily mean the one's in the road. If memory serves they just have large signs that flash. For Church to Romare I think that would help. Virtually no one will stop there. I like the idea of combining both approaches myself. Plus possibly hiring a police officer to do traffic patrol in the city of charlotte. ;-)

The City got permission from FHWA to do two experimental installs of those in-ground flashing lights about 10-15 years ago (ish). One was on 6th, I forget where the other was. The study reviewed traffic speed/behavior based on those lights, and it showed they weren't effective at slowing traffic. I'll be honest though, I don't remember all of the specifics - just the main point which is that they weren't worth the cost and hassle to install.

Also, I can tell you from experience that traffic never yielded to pedestrians on 6th Street prior to that traffic signal being installed.

That being said, flashing lights CAN be effective, depending on the circumstances. The question is how much money are you willing to invest? So, when you're looking at Tryon Street, what is the most effective tool to get drivers to yield? IMO, the raised crosswalk is doing the job on its own, so why spend more money on something that isn't necessary?

For Church Street, what I'm hearing is that additional "stuff" to get drivers to yield is not off the table. CDOT is taking an incremental approach to try different tools. The first one is the curb extension from Brevard Court that was just installed. If that doesn't work, then IMO flashing lights (probably an RRFB (look up a video)) shouldn't be off the table. 

[Miesian Corners]

Why must the city do anything in front of Wells? There are crosswalks at MLK and 3rd St. Are people really so lazy they can't walk 35 yards in either direction to cross Tryon? 

[pathb]

19 hours ago, Spartan said:

The City got permission from FHWA to do two experimental installs of those in-ground flashing lights about 10-15 years ago (ish). One was on 6th, I forget where the other was. The study reviewed traffic speed/behavior based on those lights, and it showed they weren't effective at slowing traffic. I'll be honest though, I don't remember all of the specifics - just the main point which is that they weren't worth the cost and hassle to install.

@Spartan, I believe the original question by @elrodvt was referencing RRFBs, not the in-ground flashing lights.  He mentioned seeing them in Davidson, where they have a few installations that have been featured online in various places (see: http://walkfriendly.org/2017/02/10/davidson-and-rrfbs-blog-post/).  

[SouthEndCLT811]

34 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

Why must the city do anything in front of Wells? There are crosswalks at MLK and 3rd St. Are people really so lazy they can't walk 35 yards in either direction to cross Tryon? 

I think that every time I see someone jaywalk on busy roads like South, Tyvola, Woodlawn, Tryon etc not far from a crosswalk...  Short answer, yes they're really that lazy.

Edited November 2, 2017 by SouthEndCLT811

[SgtCampsalot]

3 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

Why must the city do anything in front of Wells? There are crosswalks at MLK and 3rd St. Are people really so lazy they can't walk 35 yards in either direction to cross Tryon? 

 

2 hours ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

I think that every time I see someone jaywalk on busy roads like South, Tyvola, Woodlawn, Tryon etc not far from a crosswalk...  Short answer, yes they're really that lazy.

I would present the rebuttal that this street, our main street, should be designed in such a way to make it the place of people simultaneously as cars.

In a good street there is that push-and-pull feedback relationship between driver and pedestrian, so if traffic is slow, people can walk on the edges and cross when reasonable. There's no reason traffic on Tryon St should ever be more than at best a speedy crawl. 

These kinds of bumps are a great tool in the toolbox to fix this, we should have more of these on main roads: Central Ave, N Davidson St, South Blvd.

[Windsurfer]

30 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

I would present the rebuttal that this street, our main street, should be designed in such a way to make it the place of people simultaneously as cars.

In a good street there is that push-and-pull feedback relationship between driver and pedestrian, so if traffic is slow, people can walk on the edges and cross when reasonable. There's no reason traffic on Tryon St should ever be more than at best a speedy crawl. 

These kinds of bumps are a great tool in the toolbox to fix this, we should have more of these on main roads: Central Ave, N Davidson St, South Blvd.

I'd like to present a counter to your counter (at the risk of getting beaten up).... like it or not, we're still car-centric (see the other post with the stats regarding Charlotte placing #1 in suburban sprawl) .  I submit, that, since we have no geographical boundaries, continually creating "road diets" and pedestrian crossings in the middle of blocks will just force more businesses to appease their customers and employees by moving to the burbs where they can drive all they want.  And, before you think I'm anti-pedestrian, biker, etc., I'm not. I'm just having flashbacks to the 70's when Harvey Gantt and his crowd put the squeeze on downtown traffic.  I make it a point to go downtown every chance I get. I eat down there; I have a condo down there. I love it, but when I take people down there to eat and visit, I often hear comments like, "How do you drive down here!" 

Okay, let the beatings begin.

[jtmonk]

33 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

I would present the rebuttal that this street, our main street, should be designed in such a way to make it the place of people simultaneously as cars.

In a good street there is that push-and-pull feedback relationship between driver and pedestrian, so if traffic is slow, people can walk on the edges and cross when reasonable. There's no reason traffic on Tryon St should ever be more than at best a speedy crawl. 

These kinds of bumps are a great tool in the toolbox to fix this, we should have more of these on main roads: Central Ave, N Davidson St, South Blvd.

While these are a great tool to slow down traffic, you wont be seeing these on the main roads you specified  because they will decrease the emergency response times for emergency vehicles.  This statistic is used for many things from determining how much funding a municipality might receive to insurance rates.

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, Windsurfer said:

I'd like to present a counter to your counter (at the risk of getting beaten up).... like it or not, we're still car-centric (see the other post with the stats regarding Charlotte placing #1 in suburban sprawl) .  I submit, that, since we have no geographical boundaries, continually creating "road diets" and pedestrian crossings in the middle of blocks will just force more businesses to appease their customers and employees by moving to the burbs where they can drive all they want.  And, before you think I'm anti-pedestrian, biker, etc., I'm not. I'm just having flashbacks to the 70's when Harvey Gantt and his crowd put the squeeze on downtown traffic.  I make it a point to go downtown every chance I get. I eat down there; I have a condo down there. I love it, but when I take people down there to eat and visit, I often hear comments like, "How do you drive down here!" 

Okay, let the beatings begin.

 

1 hour ago, jtmonk said:

While these are a great tool to slow down traffic, you wont be seeing these on the main roads you specified  because they will decrease the emergency response times for emergency vehicles.  This statistic is used for many things from determining how much funding a municipality might receive to insurance rates.

I hear you both, these are very real issues to consider. And especially on the thoroughfares, that carries weighty implications that must be considered.

I guess I'd argue, regarding Tryon St, that we generally need to  re-embrace the feeling of the "stroll" when in a vehicle. A natural "creep" is very comfortable and cozy feeling on Tryon St when in a car, especially at night when people are out having fun.  Everywhere else has issues, but this one stretch of pavement is such a pleasure to ride down, it deserves a slow treatment.

[Squid7085]

53 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

I hear you both, these are very real issues to consider. And especially on the thoroughfares, that carries weighty implications that must be considered.

I guess I'd argue, regarding Tryon St, that we generally need to  re-embrace the feeling of the "stroll" when in a vehicle. A natural "creep" is very comfortable and cozy feeling on Tryon St when in a car, especially at night when people are out having fun.  Everywhere else has issues, but this one stretch of pavement is such a pleasure to ride down, it deserves a slow treatment.

As a person that lives in Uptown and walks a lot, but also owns a car and a motorcycle, I drive in Uptown as well. Here is my take. This is the wonderful thing about street grids, like what exists in uptown. Tryon isn't the only option, if you want to get somewhere quickly in Uptown and are taking Tryon, well you are doing it wrong. You have two multi lane streets on either side which can get you there. If you are trying to get through Uptown quickly and are taking Tryon, you are really doing it wrong.

It is a mindset thing. I take Tryon sometimes, but never when I want to get somewhere, but rather when I want to "stroll" through Uptown and see what is going on.  Tryon is the perfect street to become shared. It should co-exist with pedestrians, bikers, and vehicles. I personally believe the on-street parking should be removed and converted to protected bike lanes.

As someone that also works in Uptown, and frequents this area for Lunch, this crosswalk is a step in the right direction. It may seem "lazy" from the outside, and maybe it is, but at the same time, this particular block has two large open public spaces which contain much of the Uptown lunch destinations. There is a natural movement of people between these two locations more than really any other mid-block section of uptown aside from one block over from Latta to the park. The University I attended did a really clever thing years ago. When they built new buildings, they didn't put in many sidewalks. They sodded the grass and waited. That summer they came back, looked for the worn areas and poured the sidewalks. You really have two options. They could have put up fences and barriers forcing people to take the crosswalks, or embraced it and created a safer location to cross. Some situations may call for one or the other. In this particular situation, they made the right choice.

[elrodvt]

^The idea of tracking walking patterns like that is pretty interesting.  I suppose there must be some way to do that electronically.

[Popsickle]

39 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

^The idea of tracking walking patterns like that is pretty interesting.  I suppose there must be some way to do that electronically.

Google (and I'm sure apple) already do this with your smart phone. But something tells me they wouldn't share this data.