Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[kermit]

Been back on the Blue Line this week for the first time since May. I noticed four things:

1) Its slower along N Tryon than before (lower max speed beside the NCRR before Old Concord and even more stopping at crossings on N Tryon)

2) Rush "hour" appears to start around 3pm Southbound through Uptown

3) The CATS train cleaner guy at UNCC Main works hard!

4) There was MUCH less change / construction north of Uptown over the past 6 months than I was expecting. Seems like most of the construction activity (90% apartments) that was constant during the pandemic has stopped. (I may have just overlooked it, but it feels like -nothing- has started since I last rode) -- Cullman apts had just gotten going before I stopped riding.

Edited September 14, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

Looks like Charlotte isn’t the only city with inadequate game day increase in frequencies. 

Lots of similar complaints I’ve seen for Charlotte happened at the Baltimore Oriole’s game. People are sharing stories about waiting 30 minutes for each light rail, it’s so packed when on people miss their stops because they can’t get off. Not a bueno look. 
 

https://x.com/rahulastrohl/status/1703715169023430781?s=46&t=UaWwQ1nznVpI1DBZFaYZHg
 

I wonder if CATS partners up with Tepper at all and have Tepper pay for increased frequencies and service before and after the game? Many other sports teams pays for that in other places 

Edited September 18, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT2014]

^ The tough thing for smaller systems like Baltimore and Charlotte is not having multiple lines near the stadiums or a ton of extra cars to beef up capacity for special events. The Blue Line has 40 cars in the system... with a capacity of 230 each... Even if every single car was pulled up at an Uptown station waiting at the end of the game, only 9,200 people are going to fit onboard. If the Bank of America Stadium was sold out at capacity, that's only 12% of the fans that could fit on board the light rail cars and everybody else is going to have to wait for the trains to do their out and back, a journey that takes about an hour round trip from Uptown -> terminus -> back to Uptown. The other 88% need to wait, walk home, or take cars.

Baltimore has a similar problem. 100% of their light rail cars at full capacity is 9,300 people. Just isn't enough for a huge stadium. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by CLT2014

[kermit]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I wonder if CATS partners up with Tepper at all and have Tepper pay for increased frequencies and service before and after the game? Many other sports teams pays for that in other places 

Or CATS could just acknowledge that its primary mission is to move people, and just do the job which we all pay them a 1/4 cent sales tax to do.

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

^ The tough thing for smaller systems like Baltimore and Charlotte is not having multiple lines near the stadiums or a ton of extra cars to beef up capacity for special events. The Blue Line has 40 cars in the system... with a capacity of 230 each... Even if every single car was pulled up at an Uptown station waiting at the end of the game, only 9,200 people are going to fit onboard. If the Bank of America Stadium was sold out at capacity, that's only 12% of the fans that could fit on board the light rail cars and everybody else is going to have to wait for the trains to do their out and back, a journey that takes about an hour round trip from Uptown -> terminus -> back to Uptown. 

Baltimore has a similar problem. 100% of their light rail cars at full capacity is 9,300 people. Just isn't enough for a huge stadium. 

Nobody is saying CATS needs to move all 74,000 people in the stadium. CATS has plenty of equipment for trains every 10 minutes around game times. The fact that CATS isn't making even a minimal effort to accommodate these easily predictable passenger loads is insulting to taxpayers. The same is true of crush loaded trains at peak hours during most of the week.

At least this stupidity allows some suburbanites to see how ridiculous 20 minute frequencies are every once in a while.

Edited September 18, 2023 by kermit

[CLT2014]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

Or CATS could just acknowledge that its primary mission is to move people, and just do the job which we all pay them a 1/4 cent sales tax to do.

No body is saying CATS needs to move everybody in the stadium. CATS has plenty of equipment for trains every 10 minutes around game times. They are just being asked to make an effort.

At least this stupidity allows suburbanites to see how stupid 20 minute frequencies are every once in a while.

Totally agree, they should reduce the headways during games from 20 minutes and CATS is a operational mess. Just pointing out that even at max capacity, our system can only handle a small percentage of the stadium. We may a big push to take transit and people are responding for events, but the system can realistically only move about 8% of stadium attendance right after the game. 

A train every 10 minutes is still only moving around 3,000 people an hour in each direction and lots of people want to leave immediately after the event so there is a crush of thousands of people. 

I too wish CATS viewed their primary mission as moving people rather than just spurring development for investors. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by CLT2014

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

A train every 10 minutes is still only moving around 3,000 people an hour in each direction and lots of people want to leave immediately after the event so there is a crush of thousands of people. 

The beauty of BoA stadium (in contrast to say, Arrowhead stadium or Fedex field) is people can get there by driving on a wide array of gridded streets, an Interstate, transit (Silver Line and Gateway would make a huge difference) or walk/bike. I am constantly surprised by the number of people who walk from Dilworth to games, and I am sure there is similar activity from Wilmore, Southend and Wesley Heights. Tldr: no single mode needs to do it all thanks to BoA’s central location.

CATS does need to pull its head out however.

Edited September 18, 2023 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Oh?

https://x.com/catsridetransit/status/1703848953794498994?s=46&t=3ovGdpxt9A-ex0zcSJ596g 
 

Do they usually say this? First time I’ve seen it (or maybe first time I’ve actually looked out for it).
 

“Heading to the game?

The LYNX Blue Line is adding extra trains this evening to assist.”

Edited September 19, 2023 by JRCLT

[Reverie39]

I agree with the discussion about creating clusters of transit-oriented development around rail lines being the past path forward for cities like Charlotte where there is very little density outside of the city center. While DC is obviously very dense within city limits, I think it can serve as a model for this. There are suburbs along the Red Line like Bethesda, North Bethesda, and Rockville or along the Silver Line like Tysons Corner and Reston that have high density clusters for a couple/several blocks in each direction, even though generally speaking these suburbs are heavily wooded and low density. I don't see why we couldn't make Charlotte's Red Line the same way. 

[DCMetroRaleigh]

5 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I agree with the discussion about creating clusters of transit-oriented development around rail lines being the past path forward for cities like Charlotte where there is very little density outside of the city center. While DC is obviously very dense within city limits, I think it can serve as a model for this. There are suburbs along the Red Line like Bethesda, North Bethesda, and Rockville or along the Silver Line like Tysons Corner and Reston that have high density clusters for a couple/several blocks in each direction, even though generally speaking these suburbs are heavily wooded and low density. I don't see why we couldn't make Charlotte's Red Line the same way. 

I concur 

[Blue_Devil]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:25 AM, JRCLT said:

Oh?

https://x.com/catsridetransit/status/1703848953794498994?s=46&t=3ovGdpxt9A-ex0zcSJ596g 
 

Do they usually say this? First time I’ve seen it (or maybe first time I’ve actually looked out for it).
 

“Heading to the game?

The LYNX Blue Line is adding extra trains this evening to assist.”

Anyone take the line to the game this weekend? How was it with extra cars?

[kermit]

The VERY slow to get built Publix Southend station would have been very handy for me today. It should not take this long to build.

[JacksonH]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:18 PM, kermit said:

The VERY slow to get built Publix Southend station would have been very handy for me today. It should not take this long to build.

It shouldn't have taken as long as it took to build the Blue Line and Gold Line.  It shouldn't take as long as it's going to take to build the Red Line and Silver Line.  Charlotte is way behind similar-sized (and smaller) cities in building out a mass transit system.  I guess the state legislature in Raleigh is to blame for that.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/charlotte-ranked-10th-worst-city-for-public-transportation-in-new-survey/ar-AA1hWzem

Edited October 11, 2023 by JacksonH

[Reverie39]

17 hours ago, JacksonH said:

It shouldn't have taken as long as it took to build the Blue Line and Gold Line.  It shouldn't take as long as it's going to take to build the Red Line and Silver Line.  Charlotte is way behind similar-sized (and smaller) cities in building out a mass transit system.  I guess the state legislature in Raleigh is to blame for that.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/charlotte-ranked-10th-worst-city-for-public-transportation-in-new-survey/ar-AA1hWzem

I do agree it's unacceptably slow. But I'm curious, what are the examples of similar sized and smaller American cities doing a better job of mass transit development? I know Austin has a lot going on, but can't think of much else. I guess Portland has had a lot of light rail for a while, though not sure if there's any new expansion of transit there. I always was more under the impression that American cities in general are being too slow in adopting these things, not just Charlotte.

[kermit]

22 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I do agree it's unacceptably slow. But I'm curious, what are the examples of similar sized and smaller American cities doing a better job of mass transit development? I know Austin has a lot going on, but can't think of much else. I guess Portland has had a lot of light rail for a while, though not sure if there's any new expansion of transit there. I always was more under the impression that American cities in general are being too slow in adopting these things, not just Charlotte.

Yea, I understand what you are saying. However, I am done with dismissing decade-long delays with 'well, its the nature of regulation in the US.' Waving away YEARS of inaction in the construction process as just part of the deal isn't acceptable in the current climate or real estate development environment. We  have spent at least 5 years (probably more like 7) talking about two pads of concrete and a couple of aluminum shelters in the case of this station -- this is insane. WTF have we been doing this whole time? Projects in Montreal, much of France and Spain and pretty much all of Asia shows us that these delays are not inveterate to this type of construction.  We gotta cut through the bullcrap.

Edited October 13, 2023 by kermit

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

I do agree it's unacceptably slow. But I'm curious, what are the examples of similar sized and smaller American cities doing a better job of mass transit development? I know Austin has a lot going on, but can't think of much else. I guess Portland has had a lot of light rail for a while, though not sure if there's any new expansion of transit there. I always was more under the impression that American cities in general are being too slow in adopting these things, not just Charlotte.

Check out Sacramento.  It's much smaller than Charlotte but has a far more extensive lightrail system.  San Diego is larger than Charlotte but not by much (3.3 million metro population) but lightrail is several times larger than Charlotte's.  I major extension (about 11 miles, I think) to one of the lines was recently completed and involved building a mile or so long bridge high above very complicated terrain, but it only took a few years to build the whole thing.  Baltimore is another that comes to mind.  

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, JacksonH said:

Check out Sacramento.  It's much smaller than Charlotte but has a far more extensive lightrail system.  San Diego is larger than Charlotte but not by much (3.3 million metro population) but lightrail is several times larger than Charlotte's.  I major extension (about 11 miles, I think) to one of the lines was recently completed and involved building a mile or so long bridge high above very complicated terrain, but it only took a few years to build the whole thing.  Baltimore is another that comes to mind.  

I don't know if San Diego or Sacramento are a good example of moving faster at light rail construction, they have just been at it longer / started earlier. Given those cities have been in the light rail game for 36 - 42 years, the size of the systems are still relatively small and the pace of construction slow. If Charlotte was to follow a similar model, to get systems the size of those cities is still decades away.... and those cities are still car dependent. Bleak. When you look at the 11 mile extension of San Diego's system on the Mid-Coast extension, the route was selected in 1986, the environmental impact report was completed in 2014, the funding was secured in 2016, and then construction was 5 years (2016 - 2021). Charlotte will need to move faster than decade long processes from planning through construction or we'll be way too far behind (already are due to later start to transit investment). 

San Diego: 
First light rail line opened: 1981
Miles of light rail 42 years later: 65 miles
Miles built per year: 1.54 miles
Drive alone to work: 76% (2019)
Take public transit: 2.8%

Sacramento:
First light rail line opened: 1987
Miles of light rail 36 years later: 43 miles
Miles built per year: 1.19 miles
Drive alone to work: 75% (2019)
Take public transit: 2.5%

Charlotte:
First light rail line opened: 2007
Miles of light rail 16 years later: 23 miles
Miles built per year: 1.43 miles
Drive alone to work: 76% (2019)
Take public transit: 3.0%

Edited October 12, 2023 by CLT2014

[Reverie39]

Good answers. I had forgotten about San Diego's, I rode that once and found it to be a really good system (well, actually I didn't enjoy it because there were many weird or uncomfortable people around me, but the system itself seemed good). Had not really thought about Sacramento's before, looking online it does indeed look impressive (though functions as a streetcar in downtown, which is still good). I also thought of Salt Lake City, which has a couple lines and seems similar to Sacramento from at least my online research perspective. And while Baltimore had the advantage of being historically relatively larger, they are still on the verge of constructing new lines at nearly identical metro population to Charlotte. It is fair to point out that Charlotte's system is just younger than all of these though, and that with similar time to develop it may be similar or better.

Theoretically, a fully extended Gold Line, extension of Blue Line to Ballantyne, construction of the entire Silver Line, full implementation of the Red Line, and full implementation of another commuter line stretching across Amtrak tracks from Salisbury and Kings Mountain would, I think, put Charlotte above the level of these other cities. But of course, the slow progress we are talking about gets in the way - all of this might not happen for decades, at which point the other cities will have probably moved forward as well.

[JacksonH]

3 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

I don't know if San Diego or Sacramento are a good example of moving faster at light rail construction, they have just been at it longer / started earlier. Given those cities have been in the light rail game for 36 - 42 years, the size of the systems are still relatively small and the pace of construction slow. If Charlotte was to follow a similar model, to get systems the size of those cities is still decades away.... and those cities are still car dependent. Bleak. When you look at the 11 mile extension of San Diego's system on the Mid-Coast extension, the route was selected in 1986, the environmental impact report was completed in 2014, the funding was secured in 2016, and then construction was 5 years (2016 - 2021). Charlotte will need to move faster than decade long processes from planning through construction or we'll be way too far behind (already are due to later start to transit investment). 

San Diego: 
First light rail line opened: 1981
Miles of light rail 42 years later: 65 miles
Miles built per year: 1.54 miles
Drive alone to work: 76% (2019)
Take public transit: 2.8%

Sacramento:
First light rail line opened: 1987
Miles of light rail 36 years later: 43 miles
Miles built per year: 1.19 miles
Drive alone to work: 75% (2019)
Take public transit: 2.5%

Charlotte:
First light rail line opened: 2007
Miles of light rail 16 years later: 23 miles
Miles built per year: 1.43 miles
Drive alone to work: 76% (2019)
Take public transit: 3.0%

Good analysis here, but this  statement is pretty much my point:  "don't know if San Diego or Sacramento are a good example of moving faster at light rail construction, they have just been at it longer / started earlier."

Charlotte *should* have been building lightrail way before 2007, and should be expanding much faster than it is.  And just one example, Charlotte's Gold Line extension started and was completed on almost the same schedule as San Diego's 11-mile Blue Line extension I wrote about above (both projects began and were completed within abouta month of one another), which included this massive bridge structure that you need to see in person to fully appreciate.

 

 

 

[Durhamite]

^^^^This is the South, for Charlotte to have what it has is astounding truth be told. 

[Reverie39]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:08 PM, Durhamite said:

^^^^This is the South, for Charlotte to have what it has is astounding truth be told. 

This is fair, I mean Charlotte has to have the best rail transit system of any southeastern city besides Atlanta, right? I mean, of the few that even exist. If you expand to the full "south" then I guess Miami and Dallas would surpass it. And no I don't really include Miami in the traditional southeast lol.

[kermit]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, Reverie39 said:

This is fair, I mean Charlotte has to have the best rail transit system of any southeastern city besides Atlanta, right? I mean, of the few that even exist. If you expand to the full "south" then I guess Miami and Dallas would surpass it. And no I don't really include Miami in the traditional southeast lol.

MARTA is capable of carrying very high volumes of passengers, but it is very constrained by poor land use around most stations. The situation is getting better, but MARTA is no where near as effective as it could have been with better zoning. Rail along the Belt Line (making it like a retrofitted, supersized,  CLT Rail Trail) will make a big difference if they are ever able to pull it off.  MARTA rail carries 2,000 riders per mile per day per wiki.

Its been a while since I have looked at the Miami system, but when I last checked it had worse land use issues than MARTA AND worse frequency (a heavy rail system running every 20 minutes is a massive waste). Metrorail carries 1,840 riders per mile per day wiki.

New Orleans streetcars do really well, and not really because of tourists. Land use and the street running vehicles are well matched, unfortunately frequency and reliability is uneven. The St Charles line carries about 2.100 riders riders per mile (I could not easily find system wide ridership data).

Norfolk's system was badly stunted by RWNJ's in Virgina Beach who blocked the most logical expansion for an LRT ever. The stub line it is left with is well run, but serves a downtown that is not in good shape. Its kinda sad. They carry 310 riders per mile. 

Charlotte Blue Line (leaving out Gold Line due to its red-headed step-child status) is really the poster-child for decent land use planning around stations, but lousy operational policies. Wiki data shows that it carries 1,435 riders per mile. If we went back to pre-covid operations I _think_ the Blue Line carried more daily riders per mile than heavy rail in Miami. 20 minute frequencies are really holding ridership back.

Finally, Washington Metro is -technically- in the South (as is Baltimore). But, yea, I know its different. FWIW, Metro carries 3,224 riders per mile according to the wiki page (fewer than I would have guessed).

Because I was curious, CTA rail (the L) carries 3,570 riders per mile.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

58 minutes ago, kermit said:

MARTA is a very high volume system, but it is very constrained by poor land use around most stations. The situation is getting better, but MARTA is no where near as effective as it could have been with better zoning. Rail along the Belt Line (making it like a retrofitted, supersized,  CLT Rail Trail) will make a big difference if they are ever able to pull it off.  MARTA rail carries 2,000 riders per mile per day per wiki.

Its been a while since I have looked at the Miami system, but when I last checked it had worse land use issues than MARTA AND worse frequency (a heavy rail system running every 20 minutes is a massive waste). Metrorail carries 1,840 riders per mile per day wiki.

New Orleans streetcars do really well, and not really because of tourists. Land use and the street running vehicles are well matched, unfortunately frequency and reliability is uneven. The St Charles line carries about 2.100 riders riders per mile (I could not easily find system wide ridership data).

Norfolk's system was badly stunted by RWNJ's in Virgina Beach who blocked the most logical expansion for an LRT ever. The stub line it is left with is well run, but serves a downtown that is not in good shape. Its kinda sad. They carry 310 riders per mile. 

Charlotte Blue Line (leaving out Gold Line due to its red-headed step-child status) is really the poster-child for decent land use planning around stations, but lousy operational policies. Wiki data shows that it carries 1,435 riders per mile. If we went back to pre-covid operations I _think_ the Blue Line carried more daily riders per mile than heavy rail in Miami. 20 minute frequencies are really holding ridership back.

Finally, Washington Metro is -technically- in the South (as is Baltimore). But, yea, I know its different. FWIW, Metro carries 3,224 riders per mile according to the wiki page (fewer than I would have guessed).

Because I was curious, CTA rail (the L) carries 3,570 riders per mile.

 

Regarding MARTA, soooo spot on. There’s so much potential, it’s exciting what it can be one day given as you said it’s mostly land-use. Atlanta has crazy potential around its station. Miami is sort of in the same boat but its system isn’t set up as amazing as Atlanta’s. 

The entire post is spot on. Better Land use for MARTA, Miami, DART & Houston would make their systems infinitely better. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Matthew.Brendan]

check out Decatur and their MARTA station / park next time in ATL. incredible potential there.

[carolinaboy]

19 hours ago, kermit said:

MARTA is a very high volume system, but it is very constrained by poor land use around most stations. The situation is getting better, but MARTA is no where near as effective as it could have been with better zoning. Rail along the Belt Line (making it like a retrofitted, supersized,  CLT Rail Trail) will make a big difference if they are ever able to pull it off.  MARTA rail carries 2,000 riders per mile per day per wiki.

Its been a while since I have looked at the Miami system, but when I last checked it had worse land use issues than MARTA AND worse frequency (a heavy rail system running every 20 minutes is a massive waste). Metrorail carries 1,840 riders per mile per day wiki.

New Orleans streetcars do really well, and not really because of tourists. Land use and the street running vehicles are well matched, unfortunately frequency and reliability is uneven. The St Charles line carries about 2.100 riders riders per mile (I could not easily find system wide ridership data).

Norfolk's system was badly stunted by RWNJ's in Virgina Beach who blocked the most logical expansion for an LRT ever. The stub line it is left with is well run, but serves a downtown that is not in good shape. Its kinda sad. They carry 310 riders per mile. 

Charlotte Blue Line (leaving out Gold Line due to its red-headed step-child status) is really the poster-child for decent land use planning around stations, but lousy operational policies. Wiki data shows that it carries 1,435 riders per mile. If we went back to pre-covid operations I _think_ the Blue Line carried more daily riders per mile than heavy rail in Miami. 20 minute frequencies are really holding ridership back.

Finally, Washington Metro is -technically- in the South (as is Baltimore). But, yea, I know its different. FWIW, Metro carries 3,224 riders per mile according to the wiki page (fewer than I would have guessed).

Because I was curious, CTA rail (the L) carries 3,570 riders per mile.

 

RE: Light Rail in Norfolk, VA, there has been some talk of extending into the city of Chesapeake (Pop 250,000 +/-) since the Virginia Beach (Pop 450,000 +/-) extension didn't happen. Chesapeake is a sprawling residential suburb essentially of Norfolk. There would be potential there for quite a bit of dense TOD around the stations. In the long run it (Chesapeake) might be the better extension option.

[kermit]

So CATS has a new private security / fare checking company. I won’t suggest this is a regular pattern but this morning one crew got on a northbound at East West to check tickets, then a second crew got on at CTC to check tickets again. To their credit, when the new crew was told by passengers that a ticket check happened 4 minutes prior, they quit checking and told everyone to have a good day.

Edited October 18, 2023 by kermit