Bearden Park in Third Ward, Uptown Charlotte

[KJHburg]

I think Mr Tariq is looking to see what is happening in the DA office.  are criminals or youths getting slaps on the wrist over other crimes  and  then committing other crimes?   Surrounding counties in NC  around Charlotte are much tougher on crime and even first offenders given the nature.  Criminals usually regret committing a crime in Cabarrus or Iredell counties vs Mecklenburg?  ask anyone in those local DA offices.  and if you drive over to York County and commit a crime watch out.  Much tougher than Charlotte Mecklenburg.  So yes Mr Tariq discussion is much needed and I don't hear much from other council members and the mayor.  

[carolinaboy]

12 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I think Mr Tariq is looking to see what is happening in the DA office.  are criminals or youths getting slaps on the wrist over other crimes  and  then committing other crimes?   Surrounding counties in NC  around Charlotte are much tougher on crime and even first offenders given the nature.  Criminals usually regret committing a crime in Cabarrus or Iredell counties vs Mecklenburg?  ask anyone in those local DA offices.  and if you drive over to York County and commit a crime watch out.  Much tougher than Charlotte Mecklenburg.  So yes Mr Tariq discussion is much needed and I don't hear much from other council members and the mayor.  

Yes. Part of a complex answer is that harsh punishment must be applied to anyone committing a gun-related crime. I mean very harsh. Not cruel or unusual but harsh. It must be this way if there is any hope as a deterrent for others to think about what they're doing. Of course, I doubt most people that would commit a crime like this have the capacity to think about it and ponder the consequences of their actions. No slaps-on-the-wrist anymore. 

[DMann]

I was in Norfolk for New Years and went to the Chrysler Museum to see a display of Paul McCartney's photographs from 1964-65 during their initial tour (s) of the US.  These were pictures that he took.  One in Miami involved him looking out of the window of the car he was traveling in and he took a picture of the gun in the holster of an officer assigned to protect the Beatles.  He took it because (at that time) no police in England carried guns.  He was amazed to see it.

[videtur quam contuor]

Regarding the deterrent effect of laws and judicial punishment, my experience in courtrooms and general public suggests to me that this deterrent is severely limited and especially so in the case of young, and youngest, perpetrators.

When I drive down the street and see a convenience store, I do not think to myself "I could take out that store and have a car full of Newport cigs and maybe some free lottery tickets and a handful of cash. But I better not since I may be caught and sentenced and experience consequences."  The reason I keep driving past the convenience store is because taking out the store never enters my mind.  This marks me as distinctly different from those who so heavily discount their future that anything that occurs today is NEVER outweighed by some potential event. 

[go_vertical]

I agree wholeheartedly with what carolinaboy said above and would suggest that one thing that could be done (at the bare minimum) is that the city should make a change to the laws so that if a violent crime involving a weapon is committed during a planned and scheduled event, ( 4th of July, New Years, parade, etc.) after being found guilty then it is a mandatory maximum punishment.  For example, if the punishment range for crime X is two to ten years in jail and you commit said crime during the Thanksgiving parade then you automatically get the full ten years.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, RANYC said:

Data-driven crime analysis isn't new and research shows it can be effective in crime reduction if insights from the data inform policy creation and policing strategy fairly quickly after the analysis.  I suspect Tariq would like a cross-section of leadership and stakeholders to all be reading from the same page on who's perpetrating, when they're doing it, what's discovered about motivation beyond when the headlines go away, whether the criminal chain of perpetrators could have been disrupted before an incident occurred, whether we are doing adequate security planning for large-scale community gatherings, whether the policing framework is sufficient for large events, whether we could be helped by weapons detection systems for large events and whether alerts from those systems inform a timely response by police on the ground at or proximal to a large event.  Again, he's doing exactly what he should be doing. Forging ahead with a wide network of stakeholders to try and brainstorm or ideate even when the answers aren't right there in front of you.  What we can't do is just stay silent for days after a mass shooting because we think it's just too hard to answer such complex questions.

My concerns with Tariq's plan were not related to the value of data-driven crime analysis, I agree it is a very useful tool in the appropriate context. The most common conclusions of data-driven policing are to identify hotspots for particular crimes and increase police presence in those spots -- but there is already a heavy police presence at these large events.  My concerns about Tariq's plan is that it is just a shiny bobble that will distract decision makers and citizens from the larger issues (by the time the model results are released, concerned citizens will have moved on), and there is no reason to pretend that data-driven crime analysis is going to tell us anything that the police don't already know about the perpetrators of these crimes.

Attempting to apply data-driven analysis to a large, metro-wide public event is much less helpful than neighborhood-scale policing since these events have attendees from every corner of the metro, these attendees lack common backgrounds, social circles, occupations, income levels, daily activity spaces, etc. There is no way to determine any specific characteristics about these attendees for these models, short of tracking the cell-data from each attendees phone, and even then that information is not particularly helpful, since you can't institute a policy that says something like "due to past problems at events like this no one from Ballantyne will be allowed to attend." Even if the analysis manages to identify common characteristics of the perpetrators of multiple events (perhaps they are all Hispanic females?), there is no way to use that knowledge to reduce risk since our legal system prevents police form profiling that group (and the next perpetrators are most-likely going to be from a different group anyway). And since perpetrators of crime at large public events in Charlotte are a very small number of people, there is no way to make statistically significant conclusions from local data alone. 

We already know that our policing framework is insufficient for large events by virtue of these incidents continuing to occur. It seems clear that the answer is to increase security. I completely agree that getting a wide array of stakeholders to brainstorm solutions for how we can improve security at these events is a good one, I just feel like sitting back and assuming the "data" are going to tell us anything of value in this particular context leads to all of us shirking our responsibilities of coming up with useful ways to reduce this risk.

Edited January 6 by kermit

[stw52]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

To paraphrase (and invert) a classic statement from the highly esteemed NRA: "teens don't shoot people, guns shoot people." {I won't debate this throwaway line, but it does seem pretty clear that few guns means fewer of these violent incidents (and fewer people injured at each one). There was no 'good guy with a gun' scenario at work here based on the descriptions given above]

Completely agree with this. America has such a strong gun culture which results in such gun violence. Whether legally owned or not, the emphasis of guns in daily life here results in trauma that is not present in other developed nations. Trauma can be the victim that is shot, resulting in death or injury, those present at a shooting but not shot, families of those at a shooting, those such as first responders that have to go in and clean up the mess, the list is endless. While i applaud Tariq on speaking out and disappointed at the rest of the council., i feel Tariq will push everything but gun control, so we will be left with the continued dominance in gun culture.

As for large gatherings especially in Uptown, i will never bring my family to any due to such violence, i dont care what the city does nor how the event is promoted.  Who would want to spend time in a place of such increasing  violence and the resulting fallout, even if it is  limited to running for cover and experiencing heavy traffic after a violent event. None of it is attractive.

[RANYC]

43 minutes ago, kermit said:

My concerns with Tariq's plan were not related to the value of data-driven crime analysis, I agree it is a very useful tool in the appropriate context. The most common conclusions of data-driven policing are to identify hotspots for particular crimes and increase police presence in those spots -- but this is something that is already being done at these large events.  My concerns about Tariq's plan is that it is mere a bobble that will distract decision makers and citizens from the larger issues (by the time the model results are released, concerned citizens will have moved on), and there is no reason to pretend that data-driven crime analysis is going to tell us anything that the police don't already know about the perpetrators of these crimes.

Attempting to apply data-driven analysis to a large, metro-wide public event is much less helpful than neighborhood-scale policing since these events have attendees from every corner of the metro, these attendees lack common backgrounds, social circles, occupations, income levels, daily activity spaces, etc. There is no way to determine any specific characteristics about these attendees for these models, short of tracking the cell-data from each attendees phone, and even then that information is not particularly helpful, since you can't institute a policy that says something like "due to past problems at events like this no one from Ballantyne will be allowed to attend." Even if the analysis manages to identify common characteristics of the perpetrators of multiple events (perhaps they are all Hispanic females?), there is no way to use that knowledge to reduce risk since our legal system prevents police form profiling that group (and the next perpetrators are most-likely going to be from a different group anyway). And since perpetrators of crime at large public events in Charlotte are a very small number of people, there is no way to make statistically significant conclusions from local data alone. 

We already know that our policing framework is insufficient for large events by virtue of these incidents continuing to occur. It seems clear that the answer is to increase security. I completely agree that getting a wide array of stakeholders to brainstorm solutions for how we can improve security at these events is a good one, I just feel like sitting back and assuming the "data" are going to tell us anything of value in this particular context leads to all of us shirking our responsibilities of coming up with useful ways to reduce this risk.

Honestly, I'm interested in reading the results of this task force and the data they review.  I'm a big believer in looking at slices and dices of data to identify sub-problems making up a larger problem, and to potentially cut the lifeblood of a larger problem by attacking leverage points that wouldn't have been found if you hadn't seen something interesting in some disaggregation of the data.

Perhaps the police have the data and have done this level of data-driven crime analysis (i doubt it), but you'd be surprise at the amount of misinformation about crime stats across a swath of interest groups in a city.  And it shouldn't be just the police with the data.  Everyone should know the data.  Are the perpetrators of recent incidents all from the same "network" or "association?"  Are we leveraging all the tools available to ensure that a "beef" online doesn't spill over into a large-scale public brawl at a 4th of July fireworks display?  Are parents feeling helplessness and desperation about wayward kids and have no way to "partner" with authorities?  If, as a community, we were to find that a significant amount of gun crimes are perpetrated by a high-risk group of 18-24 year olds, could we focus our interventions and actually see a sizable drop in these negative outcomes?  Can most teachers tell you which of the kids in high school are completely indisciplined and aggressive and clearly have no prospects and are making a bee-line to prison and can we be doing more to intervene in those trajectories in high school?  If we turn recent uptown incidents into a case study and document everything we know about what led to the incident, might any of these emerging AI weapons detection systems have been effective given our event sequence documentation?

Edited January 6 by RANYC

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, RANYC said:

 I'm a big believer in looking at slices and dices of data to identify sub-problems making up a larger problem

I am a big believer in this as well. All I am pointing out is this is not possible to do when we don't have the necessary data -- no one has any useful data on unticketed public event attendees. Unfortunately the public (and Tariq) assumes that useful data for this process exists, which encourages them to shrug their shoulders and assume that 'technology will solve this problem." In this case technology is not going to help us.  We need to be using other other tools (good police work, more aggressive prosecution, community input, etc.) to solve these problems.

Edited January 6 by kermit

[RANYC]

13 minutes ago, kermit said:

I am a big believer in this as well. All I am pointing out is that no one has any useful data on unticketed public event attendees as a group. I fear that when the public assumes that useful data exists in cases like this, they are encouraged to shrug their shoulders and assume that 'technology will solve this problem." In this case it will not, and we need to be using other other tools (good police work, more aggressive prosecution, community input, etc.) to solve these problems.

I don't imagine it has to only be data about attendees.  I suspect it will be data about perpetrators, about police presences, about police response times.  Maybe there's data the police are sitting on that hadn't been linked to a blow-up at an uptown event, but as a result of task force discussions, interviews, and analysis, it turns out there is a link.  Maybe on one day there was some series of police calls and issues that were dealt with in the moment that then blew up into something the next day. 

What I have found is that it is a good practice to pull people out of their day to day routines and to organize them, as best you can, into research teams that study data and context and spot interlinkages they otherwise wouldn't have spotted, all in the name of getting at the truth of what's causing or perpetuating negative outcomes.  Doing this is the most underrated thing ever in organizations.  People carry out their processes and often spend little time doing deep reflection on how their process could be innovated/improved and how it might support interdependent processes more effectively.  We often don't make time to study and reflect.  This task force is a good thing and needs to happen.  I bet all these roles & departments Tariq is citing would each have a different version of the problem if I were to interview them.  If the task force can build some common ground of understanding and agreement across these interest groups, the resulting unity can only be a good thing for making things better. 

Some of this is signaling as well.  Residents might take some solace in hearing that the city is taking steps toward trying to fix things.  The idea that a solution is possible might give some people some optimism that their fears of Uptown can be addressed.

 

Edited January 6 by RANYC

[kermit]

13 hours ago, RANYC said:

 I suspect it will be data about perpetrators, about police presences, about police response times. 

Absolutely, but that is not what Tariq is referring to when invoking Data-Driven Crime Analysis.

13 hours ago, RANYC said:

What I have found is that it is a good practice to pull people out of their day to day routines and to organize them, as best you can, into research teams that study data and context and spot interlinkages they otherwise wouldn't have spotted, all in the name of getting at the truth of what's causes or perpetuating negative outcomes.  

Absolutely! But (based on what I have heard) Tariq is suggesting that statistical solutions exist, which do not. I fear that will lead to us slacking off since people often overvalue tech as a solution.

Edited January 6 by kermit

[gman430]

6 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

What are the gun laws in Charlotte? Are handguns legal?

Like that would stop anybody. Just look at Chicago. 

Edited January 6 by gman430

[CLT2014]

Are gun owners that leave their cars unlocked with guns in them charged or heavily fined for not being a responsible gun owner? These kids are not buying guns at stores, they are often stolen. The amount of guns just left in a glove compartment of an unlocked car in a suburban driveway here is insane. The kids are just walking around neighborhoods collecting guns at night.

We need an urgent call to the community to stop this.

Like stw52, I'm also done with Uptown being a place to bring my family for events like July 4th and New Year's. There are too many other options in the metro area to enjoy life and while crime can and does happen anywhere, the frequency happening at Bearden is not worth the risk. It makes me really sad. I want to enjoy Center City for events like this, but I also don't want my kids shot.

Edited January 6 by CLT2014

[Professor]

Diversity can be a great thing if the mix is right. Otherwise, you have Bearden Park situations that screw up life for everyone. Read into this what you want. Compare Oslo and Helsinki with Philidelphia and Baltimore. Different diversity mixes, different safety statistics. 

Edited January 6 by Larry Singer

[RANYC]

20 minutes ago, Larry Singer said:

Diversity can be a great thing if the mix is right. Otherwise, you have Bearden Park situations that screw up life for everyone. Read into this what you want. Compare Oslo and Helsinki with Philidelphia and Baltimore. Different diversity mixes, different safety statistics. 

I didn't know such crude reductionists would even follow or post on UP.  This assertion about mass shootings doesn't appear to be either sound or fact-based.  Just a provocation.

[Professor]

Perhaps you aren't as insightful or astute as you thought?  I'm just stating common sense observations that would be unlikely for you to deny with any actual facts or figures. Life is what we are dealt, not what we want. Your last sentence shows that you are likely in denial or simply haven't interacted with the outside world in a while. Finally, you stated that I made bogus assertions about mass shootings. Please point out what I said in that reference. I believe you are confused. I never mentioned such a thing. Please don't attempt to restructure my comments unless you are factual. 

Edited January 6 by Larry Singer

[Guest]

Alright can a mod finally ban this mf? What does someone have to say to get banned in this website? “I HATE MINORITIES” in all caps?? I’m about done with this site if this level of moderation continues, and I hardly think I’m the only one running out of patience. 

Edited January 6 by MothBeast

[RANYC]

26 minutes ago, Larry Singer said:

Perhaps you aren't as insightful or astute as you thought?  I'm just stating common sense observations that would be unlikely for you to deny with any actual facts or figures. Life is what we are dealt, not what we want. Your last sentence shows that you are likely in denial or simply haven't interacted with the outside world in a while. Finally, you stated that I made bogus assertions about mass shootings. Please point out what I said in that reference. I believe you are confused. I never mentioned such a thing. Please don't attempt to restructure my comments unless you are factual. 

We're all searching for answers in a very, very complicated world set against the backdrop of an impossible to grasp infinite universe.  You may be rushing to judgment about how insightful or astute I think I am, but I doubt I share your presumptions. 

You've mentioned "diversity," but haven't defined it and instead left it to the reader to "read this what you want."  Use your words.

You want facts and figures in a counter-argument, but you've failed to give any facts and figures to support conclusions you're drawing about a random "shooter" incident at Romare Bearden Park on New Years Eve.  You've also proposed comparisons between Helsinki/Oslo and Philadelphia/Baltimore, without explaining why those specific places should be the objects of comparison versus any number of other cities that could have been used.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RANYC said:

We're all searching for answers in a very, very complicated world set against the backdrop of an impossible to grasp infinite universe.  You may be rushing to judgment about how insightful or astute I think I am, but I doubt I share your presumptions. 

You've mentioned "diversity," but haven't defined it and instead left it to the reader to "read this what you want."  Use your words.

You want facts and figures in a counter-argument, but you've failed to give any facts and figures to support conclusions you're drawing about a random "shooter" incident at Romare Bearden Park on New Years Eve.  You've also proposed comparisons between Helsinki/Oslo and Philadelphia/Baltimore, without explaining why those specific places should be the objects of comparison versus any number of other cities that could have been used.

 

C’mon, we all know exactly what he’s saying. 

[RANYC]

28 minutes ago, MothBeast said:

C’mon, we all know exactly what he’s saying. 

Let him speak up and say it then.  Actually, I could really care less, lol.

Edited January 6 by RANYC

[kermit]

58 minutes ago, MothBeast said:

C’mon, we all know exactly what he’s saying. 

There are plenty of examples of LS’s overt racism (much more open than what was said here IMO) in the politics thread from the past few months. There is no doubt he is a racist ahole, not many folks seemed to care at the time though.

Edited January 6 by kermit

[RANYC]

Just now, kermit said:

There are plenty of examples of LS’s overt racism (much worse than what was said here IMO) in the politics thread from the past few months. There is no doubt he is a racist ahole, not many folks seemed to care though.

I've not really followed him or paid his posts any attention before.  How does one access the block feature on here? 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, MothBeast said:

Alright can a mod finally ban this mf? What does someone have to say to get banned in this website? “I HATE MINORITIES” in all caps?? I’m about done with this site if this level of moderation continues, and I hardly think I’m the only one running out of patience. 

This isn't a statement on whether the site needs better moderation, but please don't let one bad actor drive you away from the site.  That would give him far more impact and leverage than he deserves.  If you're leaving because of an assortment of issues, that's different.

Edited January 6 by RANYC

[carolinaboy]

13 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Are gun owners that leave their cars unlocked with guns in them charged or heavily fined for not being a responsible gun owner? These kids are not buying guns at stores, they are often stolen. The amount of guns just left in a glove compartment of an unlocked car in a suburban driveway here is insane. The kids are just walking around neighborhoods collecting guns at night.

We need an urgent call to the community to stop this.

Like stw52, I'm also done with Uptown being a place to bring my family for events like July 4th and New Year's. There are too many other options in the metro area to enjoy life and while crime can and does happen anywhere, the frequency happening at Bearden is not worth the risk. It makes me really sad. I want to enjoy Center City for events like this, but I also don't want my kids shot.

I consider myself to be a responsible gun owner. I never leave a firearm in my vehicle. If I am out and about it is on my person. I am on the fence honestly about others leaving a firearm in their vehicle.  If someone breaks into your car and steals a firearm, they are the criminal. On the other hand, leaving a firearm in your vehicle is not a great idea obviously because they can be stolen more easily.

[videtur quam contuor]

Using a laptop I go to my name/avatar on top right and under that list of actions is "Ignore". Enter the account name.

Warning: Members who reply to that person with a block quote will display the ignored content even though I have ignore enabled. This is a nuisance for me. If those who dispute his comments will think about us who have a person on ignore, I appreciate that. I see no option for "block".

18 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I've not really followed him or paid his posts any attention before.  How does one access the block feature on here?