Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[jednc]

Chances of Don Beaver being in a position to buy, and move a major league team here are probably remote.

If I'm not mistaken, Don Beaver bought the team with the hopes of luring the Twins to Charlotte. I think that was his original interest in the team and this market.

[caterpillar2]

uhm - That "second place" is tied with Portland, New Orleans and Nashville.

I love baseball as much as the next person, but I don't think Charlotte needs nor wants another Major League stadium inside the 277. A minor league to me is fine as it adds a balance of entertainment options but if (and probably when) MLB eventually comes to Charlotte - let's hope it is not in the heart of the area we need to build up with residential, retail, and business density.

I see your point, but I feel that if the stadium is built, businesses will simply be forced to build on Morehead, W. Trade Street, N. tryon St. towards Amtrac, midtown, and adjacent streets that are now borderline blight areas. The uptown area will simply expand making walking options more available. It all depends on how long we continue to be a target city. There is room for expansion as the uptown area is quite small in reality in its present configuration.

Edited August 6, 2011 by caterpillar2

[cltbwimob]

I love baseball as much as the next person, but I don't think Charlotte needs nor wants another Major League stadium inside the 277. A minor league to me is fine as it adds a balance of entertainment options but if (and probably when) MLB eventually comes to Charlotte - let's hope it is not in the heart of the area we need to build up with residential, retail, and business density.

However, the "land" footprint of a major league stadium is not that much larger than that of a minor league stadium. The Knights stadium will take away almost as much land as a major league stadium that you say should be used for other purposes. Furthermore, the crowds at MLB games are 3-4 times larger than minor league crowds. This means that you could actually create a much larger market to patronize the retail shops and businesses in uptown, and would make those businesses much more successful than a minor league stadium . In other words, an MLB stadium would increase the likelihood that residential, retail, and commercial spaces would move into uptown in the first place.

Edited August 6, 2011 by cltbwimob

[Urbanity]

^^^ There's a difference between land footprint and visual and size of the stadium. Minor League parks are simply not as blocking as a MLB park It really is an apples and oranges scenario as we're not talking about the land size alone but the mass of the project.

Now to clarify my earlier point - I would rather not have the minor league park inside the 277 to be frank, but if it gets built I would hate the idea of it being expanded to an MLB in such close proximate to the BoA stadium. It is just simply too much of monolithic structures in one corner of the city.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Urbanity

[cltbwimob]

^^^ There's a difference between land footprint and visual and size of the stadium. Minor League parks are simply not as blocking as a MLB park It really is an apples and oranges scenario as we're not talking about the land size alone but the mass of the project.

Now to clarify my earlier point - I would rather not have the minor league park inside the 277 to be frank, but if it gets built I would hate the idea of it being expanded to an MLB in such close proximate to the BoA stadium. It is just simply too much of monolithic structures in one corner of the city.

I see your point. However, it is important to note that MLB stadiums are not what they used to be. A couple of decades ago, with the cookie cutter multipurpose stadium, you did see imposing structures that were extremely large and took up a lot of airspace as well as ground space. Ever since Oriole Park at Camden Yards was built in Baltimore, the design of baseball parks has largely shifted to the neoclassical brick ballpark. They typically seat about 10-15k less people than older stadiums, and are typically much less imposing from the street.

IMO an MLB stadium would add a ton "curb appeal" to that section of downtown, and done right would probably bring a lot of retail opportunities to a section of town that is now filled with surface parking lots. With an MLB stadium (something like the new Busch stadium in STL, or Camden Yards) , BofA stadium, Romare Bearden Park and Gateway station, that area of downtown could really turn into one of the jewels of the city, and would go a long way in creating the retail-friendly, pedestrian-friendly street environment that most people think uptown is missing

Edited August 7, 2011 by cltbwimob

[HopHead]

I agree with Urbanity here in that it is an apples to oranges comparison. I think the proposed location for the Knights stadium is great for a Triple-A facility, but not MLB. If you take a look at Victory Field in Indianapolis, which is one of the largest AAA ballparks and compare it to PNC Park in Pittsburgh, which is one of the smaller parks in MLB and would be a good model for a Charlotte stadium, it's a big difference. It's definitely 1/3 bigger. You're not only adding another tier of seating but just the amenities that are required would really significantly add to the footprint (again look at PNC Park for a good example). I'm just not sure that location would be able to accommodate an MLB stadium. An MLB facility in Charlotte would have to be located elsewhere.

[New Name]

NOTE: anyone else having problems using the lower "REPLY BOX." It doesn't seem to do anything once I click "POST" - so I have to go back to the top and click on the reply to post button...

There was an article in the CBJ a couple days ago that said that Charlotte was on a list of "over-extended sports cities." The article is still available, but now it's pay-only. I tried to post in this topic, but I was having a problem getting it to go through. Just thought I'd bring it up now.

The article seemed a bit alarming ("overextended"?), until you realize that there were 18 other cities that were more overextended than Charlotte (namely places like Denver, Pittsburgh who have 5 major leagues). By the end of the article I began to realize that every city is probably over-extended, this is why pro-teams attendance lag when their wins go down. If the demand was 100% all the time, the teams wouldn't necessarily need to be competitive in their market (I think of the Green Bay Packers as an example).

[kermit]

^ +1 to that. The new software is NOT friendly.

[nonillogical]

^ I'm having issues too. I can only post through the "more reply options" button. The previous design was much nicer as well...

[ScottCLT]

Yeah, I saw that article too. But then I did the math and realized that actually where Charlotte is at means that supply and demand are pretty darn close. So, I worked out some number in my head assuming 1.7 million metro population in Charlotte, with the $1.6 billion overextended market, and 2.5 million metro population in Denver with an $87 billion overextended sports market. Turns out that (according to what the study determined the total income of the metro needed to be) for Charlotte to not be overextended, everyone in the metro would need to make roughly $1,000 more per year. For Denver, every single person in the Denver metro would need to make $35,000 more per year to make them not overextended. Charlotte's not doing to bad by those accounts.

[cityboi]

The only problem with building a new ballpark for the Knights is that it would delay Charlotte getting a major league team for many years even if Charlotte could support a team today. I would say a delay of 10 to 20 years. It wouldn't make sense to build a brand new minor league ballpark and then bring a major league team to Charlotte 3 or 5 years later. I guess It would be a different story if the new minor league park was designed to expand to a major league stadium but this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Guest]

This argument is a broken record cityboi... we all have heard it. Charlotte doesn't need a MLB team and probably will not be ready for one in 50 years let alone 10-20... There honestly won't be demand any time soon. The Knights will be GREAT downtown, and the last thing downtown needs is another major league ball park, with Major league prices!

[grodney]

nibletodell said:

"the last thing downtown needs is another major league ball park, with Major league prices"

Exactly. I love taking my wife and daughters down to the Knights. I will love taking them uptown to the Knights. I have never taken them to a Panthers game or a Bobcats game (that I had to pay for).

We've already got 2 pro teams that are WAY too expensive. We don't need another.

[SentioVenia]

By the time it makes fiscal sense to put an MLB team in Charlotte, an uptown AAA Knights stadium will be obsolete - it will take that many years.  Heck, the Panthers are already planning for the eventuality of replacing BofA Stadium.

[HopHead]

I would disagree about the Bobcats and Panthers being WAY too expensive. In comparison to their peers in the NBA and NFL both are much more affordable. You can definitely spend a chunk of change at Panthers game, but the Bobcats regularly run specials for families where you get tickets and vouchers for hotdogs and sodas for $60 or less. You can't tell me you'd spend THAT much less at a Knights game for a similar deal. However, with the Knights moving uptown, the term "affordability" will very much go away. If (and that's a big if) MLB comes to town, I hope they don't take up residence inside 277 either as some have stated. The stadium footprint would be much larger than a Triple-A stadium (I had a post about that not long ago).

[nonillogical]

Question from the baseball illiterate: if down the road we did get MLB, would we lose the Knights at the same time or would we have both? And if so, would it be THAT weird to have a minor league stadium in uptown and a major league stadium somewhere outside of it?

[HopHead]

^Technically speaking there would be nothing to stop the Knights from continuing to play in Charlotte (though I'm sure Jerry Reese could find a way to file a lawsuit about it). We actually already have two minor league teams playing in the Charlotte area, which I don't think everyone realizes. The Kannapolis Intimidators are the Single-A affiliate of the Chicago White Sox, while the Knights of course are the Triple-A affiliate. If MLB were to come, I doubt we'd keep all three teams though.

[eastsider]

The Major League team would own the rights to this market and no affiliated minor league teams would be able to play here without there permission. There is a growing trend of teams bringing a minor league affiliate into there home market: Atlanta's Triple A team now plays in Gwinnett, so another team in the metro would not be out of the question.

[HopHead]

^Correct. The team itself could stay, however if they are unaffiliated with the new MLB team some kind of deal would need to be worked out to remain here. Odds are that with the market the size of Charlotte, it would be hard pressed for both the MLB and Triple-A team to remain. I could see them putting the Knights in a different city within the Carolinas. Kannapolis could continue to operate since they rely on a smaller segment of the population.

[Neo]

NOTE: anyone else having problems using the lower "REPLY BOX." It doesn't seem to do anything once I click "POST" - so I have to go back to the top and click on the reply to post button...

^ +1 to that. The new software is NOT friendly.

^ I'm having issues too. I can only post through the "more reply options" button. The previous design was much nicer as well...

I'm working to resolve the issue. I applied what I hope to be a fix yesterday afternoon, but to get a good test, I need anyone having an issue previously to clear their browser's cache and just let me know via PM or email if you're still experiencing an issue. Also, please make sure that javascript is NOT disabled in your setup as that will create issues.

Design is an opinion. I understand that some care for the new design less than the old design, but likewise, I've also had dozens of compliments on the new design.

I'm not experiencing the issues that you guys are having for the most part, so in order to fix it I need to have a little more info like what browser (and version) you're using, if you've cleared the cache for your browser, and what EXACTLY is happening that you aren't expecting.

Thanks!

[HopHead]

According to a report in today's Charlotte Biz Journals, there are two local companies in discussions about naming rights for the Knights uptown ballpark. One of those is reportedly, Duke Energy. Since Duke's profile has been raised quite a bit in the last couple years, I'm not surprised. Would be interested who the other parties are. My guess it's not Bank of America or Time Warner Cable If you remember, this is one of the big hurdles for the start of construction, aside from getting the loan.

Edited September 9, 2011 by dbull75

[ssh214]

I want them to build the stadium so badly in uptown, Charlotte needs sporting events year round to boost the business around the proposed ballpark, I'm sure this has already be discussed but how much would it be to build the stadium so that it can be upgraded down the road to a major league stadium? It just makes so much sense to do it and I don't think it would be that much more expensive; all the problems would be solved if someone like Duke Energy for example would pay for the upgrade difference... Hoping cooler heads prevail!

[Spartan]

I think I recall the issue being that there isn't enough land on that block to expand it to MLB standards, not that there isn't interest in setting it up for that purpose. That said, I haven't read anything about the design of the stadium in a long, long time so I could be off. Check in the early pages of this thread. It was probably discussed there.

[cltbwimob]

If the sight could just include the two lots to the west of Graham street, adjacent to the railroad tracks, it would be large enough for a future expansion to MLB size. All it would take is just to move Graham street approximately 150-200 ft to the west.

Truthfully, the current site could probably be configured to support an MLB stadium. The problem is that If home plate was placed in the southwest corner of such a stadium, it would probably limit the right field wall to no more than 300 ft which is kind of small for an MLB stadium. Additionally, there would be no room for outfield seating and any home run hit in that area would almost certainly be a danger to pedestrians just on the other side of the stadium...however this hazard could be greatly reduced by building a left field version of the Green Monster along with a large scoreboard to keep balls from exiting the park over the right field wall. Such a problem would not really exist for left field or center field as there should be plenty of room for them.

As I have stated before the land footprint of an MLB stadium is not that much larger than a minor league stadium (older stadiums such as Kauffman Stadium in KC, and the defunct Fulton County Stadium of Atlanta are exceptions). Newer MLB stadiums, such as Busch Stadium in St. Louis, typically require a square plot of about 625-675 ft per side. Minor League stadiums typically require a square plot of approximately 500-550 ft per side. The site that the Knights want to build their stadium on is a rectangle approximately 500x700 ft.

Edited September 13, 2011 by cltbwimob

[DMann]

There is no team who would accept a modified stadium to relocate to currently in MLB.  There are few old stadiums left, Cubs, Red Sox, Tampa Bay to name a few.  All the rest have been built over the past 18 years.  No one will rebuild an existing stadium to support a Major League team, please do not kid yourself into thinking that it could happen.

In basketball, the Hornets left here because the then current arena on Tyvola did not have luxury boxes, and only after they left did we build TWC Arena.  Do you think that the Bobcats would have come into existence to play out there?  Highly unlikely.

Please do not think that retrofitting is an option at the Major League level.