St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[urbanlife]

It looks better than what I was expecting from a quick glance. The size of the buildings are about what I was expecting, though I do hope they end up building taller buildings closer to St Paul which really should be reserved completely for tall buildings. The small parks and plazas with the mix of street level commercial is also a great quality to building a walkable neighborhood. I also like the more contemporary architecture look of the buildings because it would be nice for Norfolk to have a district that feels new and modern rather than trying to pretend to be historic. There is enough of that type of architecture in Hampton Roads. 

As for the density, that is an interesting question and leads me to believe that many of those buildings are single family townhouses rather than multi unit buildings and apartment/condo buildings. There should definitely be a better mix of the two to help promote density and making it easier to incorporated mixed income housing.

[vdogg]

So, first and foremost, let’s make sure that we’re addressing each other with respect when discussing this matter. That goes for all sides. Secondly, i can see the merits of each point of this and thus take a middle ground approach. The community input was necessary, and it is “their” neighborhood, but that neighborhood is still part of Norfolk and the land it sits on is too vast and valuable to allow moderate density development to permeate the entirety of that district. Once St. Paul’s is fully built out, outside of Military Circle, there will be no more significant developable land in Norfolk. That’s it, finis, so we have to get this right on the first try.  It is correct that phase 2 encompasses a small portion of the developable land. It is also true that it is stated plainly in the documents online that the density and intensity of use will actually DECREASE as you get east of Church street. This is a valid cause for concern. With Phase 1 under construction, and Phase 2 starting next year, we are simply running out of opportunities for anything big and bold that we could truly consider an extension of downtown. That said, the architecture is fine, it’s far better than what is there now. Reconnecting Freemason is a BIG deal, and should really pay dividends further down the road. In summary, this development is OK, which is what we’ve all come to expect from Norfolk, developments that are just OK. That is something that is disheartening to many of us…

[vdogg]

645 Church Street is going before design review on September 2nd. Inexplicably, there were no renderings included in the planning document, however this is being listed as multi-family new construction. Considering that the property was just recently taken off the market this seems to be an indication that somebody has bought it and intends to demolish and build new instead of reusing the building. Working to find out and developer is now, will be able to tell a lot from that.

Many years ago this property was proposed for what would have been the location of the hoffler tower, a 25 story building. Obviously, that never came to fruition.

[BFG]

3 hours ago, vdogg said:

In summary, this development is OK, which is what we’ve all come to expect from Norfolk, developments that are just OK. That is something that is disheartening to many of us…

I think that's my biggest issue. It's an improvement from the projects (I say that begrudgingly, having friends who lived there), but it could still be so much more. I look forward to the finished product and hope this pleasantly surprises everyone and shuts up the critics. But I'd also be lying if I said I didn't expect a true extension of downtown versus "downtown adjacent". That might be because we've seen so many similar-sized metros like Charlotte and Nashville boom in both population and density, while we can barely add a couple thousand. I just want us to be recognized as something other than a military town, and it seems we only make baby steps every 20 years.

[varider]

At this point, I personally am just thankful that we are starting to see demolition and some new construction and infrastructure improvements in SPQ. 
 

over the years, I’ve come to realize that we all have a different perception of what norfolk is and different ideas and aspirations for what the future of Norfolk and the 757 should look and feel like.  If some of us, pro-urban, pro-development, pro-transit, die-hard Norfolk supporters had our way, SPQ would be transformed into a true extension of downtown with mostly 6-10 story buildings and a few 12-15 floor towers to capitalize on better views and accommodate a range of lifestyles. With that said, at some point I have to come back to the reality of the situation, and reevaluate and reassess my own expectations. I’ve seen many of us on this forum get our hopes up countless times before the inevitable letdown and disappointment occurs. Progress in this area is very, very, slow, and many people my generation and younger have already left for faster growing, more popular towns like Nashville or Raleigh. Every time a new development opens in the 757, it seems like a no-brainer and hard to imagine the area without it. For example, I can’t imagine the oceanfront without the new mariott and beach club and Orion’s roof, and I don’t understand why we don’t have more rooftop venues. similarly, i can’t imagine Norfolk without the main/ grain or odu without a football stadium. However, the newness eventually wears off, the support declines, and the excitement dies down as we look for the next new development which will likely take decades of back and forth and being watered down to the point where the final product isn’t even worth the wait, and the cycle continues. 
 

As for the DT/SPQ conversation, until we have a dynamic job market and economy with population growth/ higher incomes, we can’t expect more than what is planned and what we currently see being built. We can’t expect to entirely transform the culture and see an unprecedented increase in demand to live in SPQ just because we tear down public housing and recreate the street grid. There is so much more to it that must be addressed which will take much longer than a lifetime to see fulfilled. For now, we must be thankful for the current state of development, and do what we can to be active and engaged in the process and the greater conversation of how to stimulate the local and regional economy and fix the perception and identify issues that plague this area, and honestly the entire state of Virginia. 
 

finally, I would not worry about Norfolk running out of developable land.. I think the city could accommodate at least 100K more people within the city limits if we one day saw that monumental shift it would take to ramp up activity and development.

I am sure of one thing, however. Unless Norfolk/VB/757 take bold steps and commit to a unified regional plan and vision, we don’t stand a chance. Even I, the most avid Norfolk supporter, at some point will be so exhausted from being let down by the slow pace of progress and the divergent viewpoints and lack of identity and dependence on the military and just overall underwhelming experience that we will just move on with our lives somewhere else. 
 

norfolk could be a vibrant, active, dense, dynamic, place to live and visit. There is nowhere in the 757 that even remotely has the vibe of Norfolk and the fact that the area can see 50K+ new residents in VB/ Chesapeake area while Norfolk loses population just speaks to the disconnect and identity crises that the city faces. If the tide turns, and it somehow becomes cool to live downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods and transit becomes popular, and people start to relocate as NOVA and other high cost of living areas become prohibitively expensive. However, we unfortunately will be in competition with Richmond for those seeking an urban lifestyle, and Norfolk will likely continue as the old navy port city with a tacky resort strip next door in the eyes of others, as us with rose colored shades will continue to see Norfolk as the crown jewel of Virginia with unlimited potential and will continue to fail to understand how Norfolk, with its prime east coast location and access can remain stagnant and mediocre, while other cities that quite frankly are unimpressive but-for the hype and the big city amenities that follow. If Norfolk raises to its greatest potential, it would blow all the new and up and coming cities out of the water (casino/harbor park redeveloped with high rises, mixed use, etc., MacArthur center redeveloped and integrated into street grid, ft. Norfolk built out with hotels,medical office and residential,  SPQ built out into safe, mixed-income neighborhood, NEON built out with apartments and maybe a new museum to complement what exists, arena and mixed use In military circle, area around ODU built out with maybe a Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s? Etc. But for now, all of that is a pipe dream and people will continue to move to Chesapeake at a slightly above average rate  and avoid Norfolk like the plague except for the occasional trip to the Zoo or maybe to see the fireworks on July 4... and I’ll continue to daydream about a dense, walkable, safe, clean Norfolk with multiple light rail lines, urban infill/TOD, an actual commute into business districts and not a commute to the naval base/shipyard, population over 300K, etc. the sad part is, the bold steps that Norfolk took over the past couple decades (light rail, The main, slover library, waterside, etc.) must be reinforced by continued efforts and investments or else it will all have been for nothing IMO. If light rail is not expanded literally ASAP, I envision literally ripping the tracks out of the ground by 2030. At this point, the train is literally a novelty and it’s honestly embarrassing to see the train pass by at night with the lights on and not a sole passenger in the light rail vehicle. The only time I’ve ever even seen a full rail car is immediately after a huge tides game w/ fireworks. There was so much hope and excitement when the tide opened, and here we are, hoping we can extend light rail a couple miles to military circle? and at best, we can expect BRT to the naval base? That won’t work in a million years and it’s an absolute shame that we can invest hundreds of millions of dollars for a train to nowhere and then expect people willl wait to transfer to a glorified bus?  The rejection of light rail to the oceanfront via town center might have been the biggest failure and letdown this region will ever see.. as the population there is actually growing and  the train would have bridged the perception gap between VB and Norfolk. If even 5%-10% of the population growth and relocations were centered around the light rail and activity was more clustered in any meaningful way, we would start to see the mixed use, denser urban developments we all dream for here. Without rail, vb and chesapeake will continue to sprawl and the bulk of investment and “urban” development will be centered in suburban environments like summit pointe rather than redevelopment and reinvestment in traditional urban neighborhoods in Norfolk or Portsmouth with endless potential for walkability in a more stimulating and active and desirable neighborhood.. 

Sorry for the rant.

[vdogg]

6 hours ago, Asdfjkl; said:

Well that settles it. That is a decent sized building and could have been renovated into a lot of apartments. Gives me hope that what's replacing it has some good size to it. That should be a gateway and focal point for the St Paul's quadrant.

[Norva757]

I remember when they were suppose to build that 38 story apts there.....was that the hoffler tower?

[vdogg]

8 hours ago, Norva757 said:

I remember when they were suppose to build that 38 story apts there.....was that the hoffler tower?

Yeah. It was something in the 25-30 story range if I recall. I refuse to let my mind wander there though. Trying to deliberately imagine something mediocre. 

[BFG]

Were  there ever any renderings? And does Armada Hoffler still own that land?

[Norf Native]

This was an early rendering. 

Don’t know why I can’t get the image to show…

65BD07B0-933C-43C2-BD8E-BB4EB93A6A64.webp

Edited September 4, 2021 by Norf Native
Image

[BFG]

Thank you! I think I remember this. It has a very South Beach feel…love it. 

[urbanlife]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:04 PM, Norf Native said:

This was an early rendering. 

Don’t know why I can’t get the image to show…

65BD07B0-933C-43C2-BD8E-BB4EB93A6A64.webp 42.52 kB · 23 downloads

Oh man, I remember this proposal. It probably would have looked out of place, but it would have given some serious skyline height to where it was gonna go.

[vdogg]

Blocks 9, 10, and 16 all go before design review on September 20th, so we'll be able to see more detailed renderings on Phase 2 blocks in about a week.

[BFG]

On 9/7/2021 at 12:41 AM, urbanlife said:

Oh man, I remember this proposal. It probably would have looked out of place, but it would have given some serious skyline height to where it was gonna go.

I'd love to see this brought back and put on the proposed stretch of high rises that would be closer to where Popeye's sits. A row of buildings like this would fill in the gaps in the skyline as seen from 264. That gap between City Hall Ave. and about Charlotte St. has bugged me for years.

[Norf Native]

There are a lot of renderings at this link for those blocks.

Microsoft Word - 20 September 2021 ARB Agenda.doc (iqm2.com)

Edited September 13, 2021 by Norf Native
added pictures

[vdogg]

14 minutes ago, Norf Native said:

There are a lot of renderings at this link for those blocks.

Microsoft Word - 20 September 2021 ARB Agenda.doc (iqm2.com)

So, this is basically Ghent 2 with more modern architecture. Liking that they keep it an urban neighborhood. Some of the designs are unique and eclectic, but nothing really bold. Holding out for 645 Church Street, hopefully we get something significant there.

[BFG]

That pic reminds me a bit of the Hague, and that side of town. Basically Ghent 2.0 like vdogg said. I do like the diversity of designs...still not a fan of everything being 3- or 4-stories, but I can live with it.

[baobabs727]

Looks like a respectful, respectable, appropriate scheme for a large scale, mixed-income, public-private redevelopment of a downtown-adjacent urban neighborhood community.

[Arctic_Tern]

This is not Ghent 2 and this is not an urban development. All of those parking lots kill the density of the area. Cut the blocks in half and get rid of all of that surface parking and then you might have something close to Ghent 2. Otherwise this is just more suburban development.

[carolinaboy]

I quite like it. A nice mix of housing types and looks walkable. I like the open areas/tree-lined streets. I think it fits that part of town very well. Maybe this could push future more dense development (i.e. residential mid to high rise) into downtown proper (where it belongs).

[vdogg]

4 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

This is not Ghent 2 and this is not an urban development. All of those parking lots kill the density of the area. Cut the blocks in half and get rid of all of that surface parking and then you might have something close to Ghent 2. Otherwise this is just more suburban development.

It might not be ideal but let's not exaggerate here, there is nothing suburban about what is depicted. Chesapeake doesn't look like this, most of Va. Beach doesn't look like this, and the few surface lots you mentioned are all hidden from street level view. I too wish there were more to this development, but suburban it is not.

[Arctic_Tern]

4 hours ago, vdogg said:

It might not be ideal but let's not exaggerate here, there is nothing suburban about what is depicted. Chesapeake doesn't look like this, most of Va. Beach doesn't look like this, and the few surface lots you mentioned are all hidden from street level view. I too wish there were more to this development, but suburban it is not.

I am not exaggerating here. The only difference between this and what's in VB or Chesapeake is that the parking lot is in the middle not the front.  With the parking lot in the middle we are locking ourselves into this low-density development for 50+ years. For anyone saying this is "Ghent 2" please point to me on a map where Ghent has superblocks with the majority of land being dedicated to parking. This is not good urban design and is just repeating the same mistakes we've been making for decades.

[BFG]

Ghent proper (i.e. the apartments on the side streets off Hampton Blvd.) doesn't have all the parking lots, but parts of SPQ reminds me of the newer developments like Ghent Village or Ghent on the Square. And by newer, I mean from the early-80s on.

Being a former "Ghentite", the surface lots are low on my short list of concerns given how much of a pain it was finding a parking space. Much as I'd like more height, the designs here are much more urban than the typical stuff in VB and Chesapeake.

Edited September 15, 2021 by BFG

[baobabs727]

9 hours ago, vdogg said:

It might not be ideal but let's not exaggerate here, there is nothing suburban about what is depicted. Chesapeake doesn't look like this, most of Va. Beach doesn't look like this, and the few surface lots you mentioned are all hidden from street level view. I too wish there were more to this development, but suburban it is not.

100% agreed.  It seems like sometimes people associate “urban” exclusively with high-rise development and integrated parking garages. There are plenty of urban communities all around the country where there are blocks upon blocks of mid-rise apt. buildings interspersed with quads, townhomes/rowhouses, etc., with some surface lots and more back alley parking and hidden/concealed parking in the interior. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by baobabs727

[vdogg]

18 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

100% agreed.  It seems like sometimes people associate “urban” exclusively with high-rise development and integrated parking garages. There are plenty of urban communities all around the country where there are blocks upon blocks of mid-rise apt. buildings interspersed with quads, townhomes/rowhouses, etc., with some surface lots and more back alley parking and hidden/concealed parking in the interior. 

Richmond is probably the most urban place outside of NoVa and they have a ton of hidden surface lots. When I think urban, I think the streetscape and overall connectedness are far more important than anything hidden from view. And surface lots don't have to stay surface lots forever. We've seen plenty redeveloped in this area, so I don't think we're locking ourselves in by having lots hidden from view.