SkyHouse Charlotte, Publix and 10Tryon Tower in 4th Ward

[kermit]

 Fourth Ward contains some of the oldest residences in Charlotte, on very narrow streets that were laid out at a time when people mostly walked places.  It was not built for cars.

 

Yes, there are old houses in Fourth Ward, but, most historians will tell you they are not really historic. Many / most of the houses in Fourth Ward were moved there from other in town neighborhoods in the early and mid 1980s. The housing that existed in the neighborhood before that was largely decayed to be point of collapse and the area was largely vacant (1700 people lived in Fourth Ward in 1970 and 1300 in 1980 per the census).

 

The NCNB Community Development Corporation (led by Dennis Rash, the father of Jim Rash (the guy who plays the Dean on Community) provided subsidized mortgages to people willing to move a historic house into Fourth Ward and refurbish it throughout the 1980s. The Bank wanted to create a place where its growing executive corps could live and walk to work. It was a _very_ successful strategy.

 

EDIT: Corrected my population numbers

 

In 1980 Fourth Ward had 954 housing units, only 44 of them were owner occupied, 132 of them were vacant (per the census)

In 2000 fourth Ward had 1655 housing units with 528 of those being owner occupied

 

 

FWIW, the 2000 Census reported that 785 people lived in Second ward, all of them in 'group quarters' -- this was the number of inmates in the jail at the time of the census.

Edited April 20, 2014 by kermit

[teeg]

^ fascinating.  The houses that were moved there, do you know where they were moved from?

[southslider]

Narrow streets with frequent intersections have built-in traffic calming to balance connectivity. Like anyone else, Fourth Warders just fear change.

[kermit]

^ fascinating.  The houses that were moved there, do you know where they were moved from?

I never heard a good answer to that. I believe that Tom Hanchett at the Levine Mus New South has been trying to create a catalog of relocation. You can usually tell which houses have been moved by looking at the brickwork foundations, the 30 year old brick and mortar has a much newer appearance.

 

There is one house on Pine st which does not have a 'front' door. I was told this was due to the owner not measuring the width of the lot before the house was moved.

 

I have a few pictures of the house moving operation, I'll try to get one or two posted if I can figure it out.

[Finkle]

Only 3 or 4 Victorian home were moved in 4 th Ward and they came from the Graham St. Side of 4th Ward so that apartments could be built.

You also have to remember that in the Victorian era the homes were built on columns with the crawl space wide open or filled with lattice, so most of these homes had new foundations put under them when they were rehabbed.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Finkle

[Guest]

Only 3 or 4 Victorian home were moved in 4 th Ward and they came from the Graham St. Side of 4th Ward so that apartments could be built.

You also have to remember that in the Victorian era the homes were built on columns with the crawl space wide open or filled with lattice, so most of these homes had new foundations put under them when they were rehabbed.

A lot of homes came from around the YMCA in Dilworth/SouthEnd and other parts of Dilworth too.

[Guest]

Skyhouse Raleigh has topped 12 floors already! Can't wait to watch this puppy rise that fast.

 

Another Note: 

SkyHouse has put in the revise the previous urban plan for SkyHouse charlotte… Makes me wonder whats up. Revision went in on April 17th, 2014.

"Revision to Approved Urban Plans (MUDD, PED, TS, TOD, UMUD)"
 

https://aca.accela.com/charlotte/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=LandDevelopment&TabName=LandDevelopment&capID1=14LUR&capID2=00000&capID3=00008

Edited April 21, 2014 by Guest

[15895]

Skyhouse Raleigh has topped 12 floors already! Can't wait to watch this puppy rise that fast.

Another Note:

SkyHouse has put in the revise the previous urban plan for SkyHouse charlotte… Makes me wonder whats up. Revision went in on April 17th, 2014. "Revision to Approved Urban Plans (MUDD, PED, TS, TOD, UMUD)"

https://aca.accela.com/charlotte/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=LandDevelopment&TabName=LandDevelopment&capID1=14LUR&capID2=00000&capID3=00008

What does that mean?

[southslider]

Add the former Days Inn site?

[MazzoMedia]

"I'm sorry Boss, I thought I had it in neutral..."  We can only wish!!

[dubone]

I keep looking on the deed site for a sale but no dice.    However, it is totally plausible that after terminating the 99y lease with the Hospitality Corp (Days Inn) that they simply do a new 99y lease with Grubb or Grubb's Hotel partner rather than a sale of the land.  

 

I wonder too that in order for Hospitality Corp to give up on a valuable lease option that maybe they have been made partial partners in the new hotel development in compensation.  

 

When that building drops down we will have to have another UP meet-up for champagne.    (Same standing offer for any development going into Levine Desert Valley)

[RiverwoodCLT]

Looks like we will see a crane next week.  They poured the pad for it today. 

[RVA2CLT]

first section of the crane base was installed on the pad this morning

[Spartan]

You're really overplaying the "tearing down most of the 'history' in this city" card here.  Fourth Ward contains some of the oldest residences in Charlotte, on very narrow streets that were laid out at a time when people mostly walked places.  It was not built for cars.  To the extent that the city had an interest in maintaining the residential character of the neighborhood, eliminating cut-through traffic was a smart move.  If someone visiting Charlotte wants to visit something in Fourth Ward, GPS will get them there just fine.  

 

No, I'm not. Most other urban neighborhoods in Charlotte (Dilworth, Elizabeth, Wesley Heights, 1st Ward, 3rd Ward, etc.) all seem to do just fine with connected streets. Further, Charleston is loaded with connected streets AND pedestrians and most of the city was built prior to cars and even trains having been invented! 

 

I have, on multiple occasions, witnessed people with GPS units driving up Pine St from 6th and continuing up to the dead end, then reversing alllll the way back down the street. In several instances they backed into a parked car. What I've learned from this is that people with GPS units are incapable drivers and should not be trusted. Therefore, I would rather have a street system laid out in such a way that GPS units are not necessary.

[Miesian Corners]

No, I'm not. Most other urban neighborhoods in Charlotte (Dilworth, Elizabeth, Wesley Heights, 1st Ward, 3rd Ward, etc.) all seem to do just fine with connected streets. Further, Charleston is loaded with connected streets AND pedestrians and most of the city was built prior to cars and even trains having been invented! 

 

I have, on multiple occasions, witnessed people with GPS units driving up Pine St from 6th and continuing up to the dead end, then reversing alllll the way back down the street. In several instances they backed into a parked car. What I've learned from this is that people with GPS units are incapable drivers and should not be trusted. Therefore, I would rather have a street system laid out in such a way that GPS units are not necessary.

I have to agree 100%.  Grid systems work best when they are, well, allowed to be a grid.  Dead end streets serve no one.  If you want to live on a cul-de-sac, move to Ballantyne.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Miesian Corners

[nonillogical]

No, I'm not. Most other urban neighborhoods in Charlotte (Dilworth, Elizabeth, Wesley Heights, 1st Ward, 3rd Ward, etc.) all seem to do just fine with connected streets. Further, Charleston is loaded with connected streets AND pedestrians and most of the city was built prior to cars and even trains having been invented! 

 

I have, on multiple occasions, witnessed people with GPS units driving up Pine St from 6th and continuing up to the dead end, then reversing alllll the way back down the street. In several instances they backed into a parked car. What I've learned from this is that people with GPS units are incapable drivers and should not be trusted. Therefore, I would rather have a street system laid out in such a way that GPS units are not necessary.

I agree in principle that building this way was a mistake, though now that it's done and that neighborhood is established, I don't hate them universally. I would definitely like to see 9th and Pine reconnected. 7th would make sense but I wouldn't want to cut the park in half. 8th isn't really hurting anything in its current state, and I find those little pedestrian-only cut-throughs (the ones on 9th and Pine too actually) pretty charming when walking. When you get down to it, the grid is just fine there for walking and biking, its only difficult for cars. 

[teeg]

Most other urban neighborhoods in Charlotte (Dilworth, Elizabeth, Wesley Heights, 1st Ward, 3rd Ward, etc.) all seem to do just fine with connected streets. 

 

There are certainly other cases where those urban neighborhoods have had streets cut by the city.  Kingston @ Euclid.  Circle @ Colonial.   But even without those deliberate disconnects, there are huge gaps in the connected streets those neighborhoods do "just fine" with.   Google map Independence from McDowell to Briar Creek.    

[dubone]

I deleted like 3 replies to this already, but I will pipe up.   Hands down, the historic district of 4th Ward will die if Pine Street is open to through traffic even only taking 5-10% of Graham's through traffic.  If we're playing Simcity, no big deal, the SFHs turn    and brown and then YAY higher density!    So that is great too for Charlotte in a free market, we tear down the silly and impractical vintage homes and build denser, more robust buildings that can be livable for residents in the harsher urban environment.  If that is the planning policy, then fine, make it a consistent city policy, rezone to allow > UR1, admit the city no longer wants to retain a historic district of victorian SFHs within the CBD and the historic district restrictions and let urban decay and regrowth run its course.

 

The numbers and intensity of vehicles generated in CBD sources are really obviously not compatible with a historic SFH neighborhood.  It will be completely unlivable for families in quaint 120-140 year old single family structures 5'-10' from back of curb engineered by horse-and-buggy era soundproofing.  I am generally for urban activity and density and connectivity and OCD grids in theory, but if you want something special and fragile like a small low rise district of historic houses, the only way to protect them is the way they already are in Fourth Ward and other similar districts in the entire planet is to protect them by bypassing those districts from being overrun by the harsher denser urbanism of other zones.    

 

I watch countless people race down a dead end street at 50 mph only to screech to a halt at the blockade.  Those people already made their decisions thinking it was a through street, those things do not go DOWN with open streets they go up exponentially.  Do you people not realize that this will be an hourly occurrence or a ten minutely occurrence or an activity that you yourselves will actually do just like ALL the other thoroughfares in uptown?  Don't forget how it is already a semi-monthly occurrence that a car chase races down a thoroughfare in uptown, now instead of making two turns of the Graham exit they go straight down Pine and through the windows of Al Mikes.  It would literally be an I-77 lane, which becomes an exit lane, which becomes an I-277 lane, which becomes an exit lane, which aligns to Pine Street now opened all the way through uptown to Wilmore, instantly the route of choice for Siri, Goo Gurl, and car chases.    Even if it is considered traffic-calmed or they add whatever deterrents to cut-through traffic like speed bumps, don't forget that there are people who remove their mufflers or crank up their crotchrocket cycles then scale it up to CIAA Uptown proportions, or Panther Sundays, or rush hour.   While typing this, I have already heard at least a dozen of those types of ultra-loud vehicles go past on 277 two blocks away, now put them 10' away from my living room sofa with antique single-pane windows.   

 

I should add that there is no lack of actually connectivity except where the railroad and freeway cross.  But there are easy ways through 4th Ward now for through traffic.  It is simply inconvenient and thus discouraged.  Anyway, I tried to avoid responding because it is too personal for me and I know very specifically the impacts it would have on my life.  Maybe you guys are just thinking of one or two specific closures to remove which would not cause much new through traffic, but a policy at-large to remove ALL of those closure is a non-starter for me.  If it even hits the books as a possible plan on the uptown transportation plan, I will have to sell at whatever significant personal loss I need to and leave, exactly the historic patterns of the past.  And I am hardly ever a NIMBY-type given the level of urban inconvenience that I often gladly tolerate.  But that is one too many.    

[southslider]

There are historic homes built close to the street along Davidson in NoDa, along Euclid in Dilworth, and along Pecan in Midwood and Elizabeth. Truth is change is scary. A certain church in 4th Ward thought converting Poplar to two-way north of Trade would be the end of the world. And yet the world keeps spinning.

[atlrvr]

^ Yes, and those homes on Euclid and Davidson sell at a significant discount to other homes in the nieghborhood and are targeted for redevelopment to higher density, and the city agrees and allows higher density rezonings. 

[southslider]

Meanwhile, people pay more to live on The Plaza in Midwood or on Queens Rd West in Myers Park, despite higher volumes of traffic. To each his own, and a willing buyer for any seller distraught from change.

[CLTProductions]

So anyways, about that SkyHouse construction!!! moving right along

[dubone]

A church concerned with day care traffic patterns while the city makes a change that DOWNGRADES a street is vastly different.  Opening a path from 277 to high-intensity uses uptown through a residential neighborhood of homes that are 2-3x closer to the street than houses on Euclid and Pecan is a significant upgrade in vehicle count.  Keep in mind, traffic counts are already quite high, so it is not as though they are suburban culdesacs, there is plenty of connectivity through the neighborhood, but it is restricted enough to the point that it is still livable as a community.   People also adapt to the insufficient bike and pedestrian infrastructure by walking down the street like a balanced neighborhood with calm traffic.  Introduce through traffic for uptown, and we will instantly have a constant stream of automobile traffic that is far from calm.  As I mentioned before, there are still people now who act as though they can get through, and they prove the case of what the norm would be if it were opened up, racing to their highest levels until they realize they must turn. 

 

As I type, I hear crisply the laughter and discussion of a group of 30 tourists on segways in the middle of the street discussing the history of the community. This does not happen in the middle of Euclid, nor does it happen on Graham street, which has been long established as the thoroughfare to take the through traffic.  All of the victorian houses on Graham are gone, and that is fine, it was the market acting on that change without artificial policies forcing SFH zoning.   Those bypasses saving the historic heart of the neighborhood, just like Dilworth and the others have.   The character of those bypass thoroughfares changes with the harsher environment, but the interiors remain more residential in character. 

 

The vehicle numbers going through uptown are vastly different from those neighborhoods you are discussing like Pecan and Euclid. Put an NFL stadium, NBA arena and 30 massive office buildings in Midwood and watch how rapidly the panicking starts and the need to find a balance between thoroughfares and neighborhood streets with different characters.  Or remove the zoning and historic overlay restriction policies and watch how rapidly the character of those streets change to capital-intensive higher density structures with lower income residents.   

 

The impacts would be not even close to minor blip on the radar deserving a condescending reference to fear of change. It would be nothing comparable to a downgrade from a one way thoroughfare to a two-way neighborhood street. It would not only be dramatic alteration of the nature of the neighborhood.  It would be life changing for me personally, and it would absolutely cause me to move, albeit not to a small mountain town or anything like true urbanists do, but I would not be staying to ride out the changes.   

 

 

 

According to the 2013 city Average Weekday Traffic Volumes, (which ignores weekend events) here are traffic counts for through-streets:

• Graham (uptown):  11,200
• McDowell: 12,480
• Davidson: (uptown) 4800
• Caldwell: 7600
• Church: 8300 (7200 in 4th Ward)
• MLK: 4600
• Mint: 4500

As a point of comparison, Kenilworth (in Dilworth): 10,300

 

Then compare to the current counts or streets that are intentionally blocked to be neighborhood streets and not thoroughfares:

• Pine: 1200
• 9th (in 4th Ward): 1300
• 8th (in 4th Ward): 1000
• Alexander (in 1st Ward): 600
• 9th (in 1st Ward): 1500 (this was disconnected from 10th in Belmont to stop cut through, which has 10,100)
• Myers (in 1st Ward) 700

 

There is a 10-fold difference between the neighborhood streets cut off and the through streets that are connected, and a huge difference between the speeds of those cars.  It is flat out not compatible with victorian homes 5'-10' from the street.   Set backs make ALL the difference.  Plaza and QRW are ceremonial streets with grand trees, large set backs, lush medians and larger lots.  Of course they have higher values even with through traffic.   If you think that is even remotely comparable to the cross sections of 8th, 9th, or Pine, then perhaps you don't live in Charlotte. 

 

 

 

 

This will be my last response to the subject, since it is annoying the people who don't care, and using up too much energy for me to address a hypothetical from an ivory tower from people who do not have their money where their mouth is. 

[Miesian Corners]

 ^Um, I OWNED at home on East Kingston Ave that had a "traffic calming" dead end imposed on it in 1982. I do not speak from a proverbial ivory tower--I lived it.  That said, I, along with some of my neighbors, tried to have it removed so the grid could reconnect at Euclid.  We were drowned out by other homeowners on the street who said "(their) children's lives would be put at risk if the street was opened to through traffic".  Never mind that one block north, East Park Ave, a through street, contained (and still does) a large elementary school, a large city park, and access to a bar, a drug store, a sandwich joint, a bank, and a traffic signal.  But we have digressed.  

 

Now, can we get rid of that awful motel at 8th and Tryon?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Miesian Corners

[CLTProductions]

 

 

Now, can we get rid of that awful motel at 8th and Tryon?

Yes, and SOOOOOOOO how about that construction

Edited May 1, 2014 by Jayvee