Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Charlotte_native]

This will never happen and I know it, but wouldn't it be great if they did restripe and add a third lane each way on 485 but made them HOV lanes ONLY and enforced it strictly. Don't just let the traffic spread out like it will without HOV so gridlock and backups will still occur (which they will, 2 or 3 lanes don't matter), give an extra lane so just maybe some 'burb commuters will carpool. If they do they get the lane that moves more quickly than the others and has much less traffic.

I know, pipe dream, and the outcry would be heard across the country for those that would refuse to carpool and feel somehow cheated because of their own refusal to change, but fun idea anyway.

[voyager12]

There was an article in the O this week about possibly converting HOV lanes into "Lexus Lanes" as they are commonly known. Apparently HOV lanes are underutilized nationwide because not enough people like to carpool and setting aside tolled lanes for quicker travel time is gaining in popularity. The idea can seem elitist but if they keep the fare low enough it might work for those who are in a rush or are just sick of congestion. Many of the service workers going on housecalls would have their employers pay the fee anyway.

[wheatie]

There was an article in the O this week about possibly converting HOV lanes into "Lexus Lanes" as they are commonly known. Apparently HOV lanes are underutilized nationwide because not enough people like to carpool and setting aside tolled lanes for quicker travel time is gaining in popularity. The idea can seem elitist but if they keep the fare low enough it might work for those who are in a rush or are just sick of congestion. Many of the service workers going on housecalls would have their employers pay the fee anyway.

If roads were a private enterprise I would have no problem with this. However, roads are financed by the public, and equal and fair usage policies should apply.

So the argument is that HOV lanes are underutilized. Well let's just give up on the idea of limiting single occupancy travel, and create a new revenue stream. This is an extremely flawed attitude. We travel a slippery slope when we begin to give perferred access to public assets to those who are willing to pay more for it. IMHO, this serves to create a de facto caste system based on the size of one's bank account. Should we allow people to pay extra to have their own lineup at the DMV, Social Security Office, or other government services where waits can be a pain.

How about making people that don't carpool (when they have the option) pay a toll for unnecessarily clogging our roads and adding to air emissions.

Edited August 29, 2007 by wheatie

[monsoon]

The HOV lanes here in Charlotte are pretty much useless because of the lame design of I-77. If you go south you get trapped into a lane that prevents you from exiting the highway if you want to get onto I-85. If you are going north that means you get caught in a traffic jam when the lanes disappear just north of Harris Blvd with no exit to be found.

[Charlotte_native]

I made my post without any seriousness because it wouldn't stand a chance, but the real issue is no one wants to inconvenience themselves regarding their cars, travel, and traffic but they also refuse to see that building more and more roads or lanes never really ease gridlock. You just can't pave yourself out of this problem. Everyone wants a solution, but not really. Solutions require doing something different than what we've been doing, that much is obvious. The same people that clamour for a solution make no sacrifice themselves and never will. It'll always just be guvments fault for not paving fast enough or simply not doing enough.

This is why my partner and I always have to toast our drinks and smile at 5:30 or so when we are in the pool at our condo, home from work, listening to the radio talk about which roads and interstates (it is always the same ones, what is the point anyway) are backed up due to some overturned truck, or accident with injuries, etc. My mom lives in the 'burbs and works at BofA corporate center. By the time she gets home I've been home, took a dip in the pool, walked to the grocery store, and dinner is almost on the table.

Truthfully, other than my tax dollars being gobbled up with these sprawl and pave-it-away issues, I shouldn't really care -- I personally have no traffic issues in Charlotte. I live 6 blocks from where I work and shop and I rarely go further from home then NoDa or Dilworth. If no one wants a real solution (not implying that HOV lanes are) then to hell with it. Pave more, develop more, pave more, develop more -- always have gridlock. Just don't act surprised.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Charlotte_native

[Andyc545]

I have raved about turning at least the southern portion of 485 to include an HOV/HOT lane in previous posts. It seems like this idea is being more talked about recently, for 77, 85, 485, and other highways throughout NC. It looks like they are going to try the idea of an HOT lane, or the Lexus Lane as it was referred to, for the sole fact that it brings a revenue stream, one that is much needed. Although I am discusted with the way that it unfavorably gives "rich" people an upper hand, I do still support it for the following reasons, and those that travel on highways that would have the option to use a toll rode should also think about these reasons:

1) If you are commuting, for example, and there is a traffic jam or accident on 77, say, that would leave you in 6 oclock traffic for, lets say 15 minutes a mile, where your car is either idleing or moving at a speed of 20 mph or under, it should be calculated the amount of gas, in return, money you are using being in traffic, vs. paying 2-4 dollars for a toll, for example.

2) The HOT lanes support CATs, and this would actually help ridership and revenue for CAT's in this way; Buses are permitted to use the toll lanes for free, and if you are a bus rider (safely lets say that is lower class citizens, and commuters during rush hours, for arguments sake), their bus ticket will have already included the toll road trip, if there destination utilizes it, at no additional cost. So, for $1.30, or $2.60 if you're leaving Meck Co, you can utilize the toll road, which means the CAT's busses will bypass the rushhour traffic. In return, this will make taking the bus quicker than riding your car, which right now, arguably, it would take longer to ride the CAT's bus than taking your direct route by personal vehicle. This should help entice CAT's bus riders and ridership numbers as well as give a more attractive alternative, that most of us, at least on these boards, are looking for.

3) Toll roads are pretty much non-exsistant here in the region. Other neighboring states, Virginia, W. Virginia, I-90 in New York, California; they all have highways that are forcably tolled. This means, if you want to be able to go 65 miles an hour from Buffalo to Rochester, or an hour trip by thruway, it will cost you I think its $2.60 currently each way. Alternatives that use other roads other than I-90 will leave you looking at double the amount of time, by means of smaller roads. To go from Buffalo to NYC it cost over $10.00 each way by means of the tolled-highway, I-90. My point is, we are fortunate to not have tolled roads in the first place. I think that there is always a position for NCDOT and local/city officials to place tolls on some of our highways, such as 485, 77, and 85, in order to get a money stream in for funding and maintaining are road system and also to help break up "unnessary" traffic on the highways during times of congestion. I think it's a much more generous alternative to put tolls as being a luxury, or an option, instead of forcing it upon say someone that is living paycheck to paycheck.

Again, I am not 100% supportive of the ideas just for the fact of the discriminitory point of view. However, if one is smarter when one uses the regular highway vs. tolled highways vs. just waiting for traffic to disperse, I think that the system could be very effective for all of us, and benefit even someone without a lot of money, lets say they were late one time and had to get past all of the traffic. I know these statements come with great repel, but I think these facts are viable and should be considered.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Andyc545

[monsoon]

I just read that the project to widen Hwy. 73 in Huntersville has by far exceeded what Huntersville thought they were going to have to cough up for the project. Instead of 8 or 9 million it is now between 16 and 25 million which is more than double what was expected. Interesting considering how CATS is held under a flame for cost overruns. I doubt much of an ordeal will be made about this road project though.

Actually this was one of the cover stories of this week's Huntersville Paper. It should be noted that part of this project would have included improvements to the highway for the CATS commuter rail line which crosses Hwy 73. At one point they hoped to build a bridge for for the CR line to totally remove it from Hwy 73 grade. It sounds like what will happen now is the project will be split into two phases with the part near 115 and the CR line pushed off indefinitely.

[Otto]

By the time the NCDOT widens I485 in 2012, it is going to cost double what it will cost today. That is the reason the NVDOT is behind the 8 ball all the time. A 30 million dollar job to day and spend more that 60 million dollars in 2012 is no way the state will ever get caught up.

The way the NCDOT funds and builds road should be change so we are not falling always fall behind. We know that nothing will happen as long as the political power in Raleigh is from eastern NC.

I am not anti eastern NC, I was born and rised in southern NC were the roads were not the good when I moved out in 1965.

I've noticed on this blog that people tend to blame projects in eastern North Carolina for the funding shortfall in the Charlotte area. It's not a eastern v. metrolina problem. It is a rural v. urban issue. Funding formula or no funding formula, the road building program can never keep pace with the growth, development, and sprawl. Can't happen....all you have to do is drive around western Union County, Catawba County or Northern Meck and look at all of the red clay exposed due to construction of a new subdivision, shopping center, or mixed use facility. I would recommend that you all take a look at the NCDOT Transportation Improvement Program. Your primary urban counties are those along the piedmont cresent (I-40 from Raleigh to Winston-Salem, I-85 from Durham to Gastonia, and I-77 from Charlotte to Statesville). Grab a map or google earth, and find those county names along the aforementioned corridors and check the TIP. http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/TIP/TIP/. The reason that there will always be a budget shortfall for Charlotte and the other metros is the type of projects. Let's talk a look at some TIP Projects in Charlotte....:

I-3803B (widen I-85 from I-485 to NC 73 to an 8-lane frwy) $330M

R-2248E (I-485 from NC 115 to I-485) $130M

R-2123CE (Reconstruct I-85/485 Interchange in NE Charlotte) $57M

R-4902 (Widen I-485 to 6-lanes from US 521 to I-77) $45M

I-4733 (I-77 / Catawba Ave Interchange) $34M

R-211CE (I-485 at Weddington Rd, construct interchange) $18M

R-3329/U-3825 (Monroe Connector and Bypass) $229M

Those are just a small portion of the projects FUNDED in the Charlotte area....I say again, FUNDED. Doing the math you see that these seven projects total $843M. Just these. Those are current TIP estimates. Not to mention the unlisted improvements to Independence Blvd, Billy Graham @ Wilkenson, Gaston E-W Connectors, NC 73, and so many others. By the time the projects are built, the costs would have skyrocketed. Point being, when you are constructing or widening freeways in urban areas you are going to have to purchase expensive right of way (especially for interchanges and new locations projects), construct expensive noise walls, have complex traffic control plans, and use a whole lot of steel and concrete. Again, these are freeway projects whose sole purpose is to move high volumes of traffic. Those high traffic volumes are a primary result of local traffic. Instead of hoping for a change in the funding equation or blaming eastern NC (because Wilmington, Greenville, Fayetteville, and even the smaller towns have their own share of transportation issues, relatively speaking), urbanites are going to have to embrace alternate forms of transportation. I live in Raleigh, and we sacrifice and instead of hopping on I-540 every single day and driving the 30 miles from our house to RTP, my wife utilizes the TTA. It's the transportation policy makers job to create an efficient and safe transportation system. A system includes multiple modes. We will never be able to build enough lanes to solve congestion on I-77 or I-85. However, given alternative means, one can chose to sit in traffic alone in their car, one could chose to carpool (thus eliminating an additional vehicle off the road), one could choose to ride the 77X with about 40 others, one could eventually choose to ride the CATS North Meck Commuter Rail....or one could continue to complain and vote against new transportation initiatives and hope that all of the transportation projects in the Division 10 section of the 2007-2013 NCDOT TIP eventually gets built.

[BobbyRobert]

Sorry about the digression but I found some interesting data that suggests (to me) that gas and vehicle taxes only pay for 52% of road building expenses. The table is from the FHWA and can be found here:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs04/htm/hf10.htm

Am I interpreting it correctly? If so wouldn't this be a useful bit of data in the sprawl / transit debate? Apologies if it has been covered before.

[grodney]

Welcome news to those of us on, or visiting, the south side: The widening of Providence south of 485 will (allegedly) start in January.

http://www.charlotte.com/someck/story/285336.html

The article says it will be 6 lanes from 485 down to Ardrey Kell, and then 4 lanes down to Rea. The bad news is that it may take 3 years to complete.

But will it really start in Jan? Or will there be yet another funding or clam delay?

Edited September 25, 2007 by grodney

[Andyc545]

Welcome news to those of us on, or visiting, the south side: The widening of Providence south of 485 will (allegedly) start in January.

http://www.charlotte.com/someck/story/285336.html

The article says it will be 6 lanes from 485 down to Ardrey Kell, and then 4 lanes down to Rea. The bad news is that it may take 3 years to complete.

But will it really start in Jan? Or will there be yet another funding or clam delay?

For as long overdue this is--- and the pull and growth that has been begging for it out there for these years, I don't think it will see anymore delays and has been made a priority at this point.

[Raintree21]

I noticed the land clearing on Saturday. This is going to be quite a mess for the year or so it will take to complete but well worth it.

[Creasy336]

I was in Charlotte tonight with family from New Jersey. I must admit you guys were right about Charlotte's dark interstates. It has gotten worse in the two years I've been gone. Most of I-85 (the new and old sections), and I-77 were dark. I had people in the car scared and nervous when I exited from I-77sb to I-277. I know some forumers from the area have written NCDOT, but one more letter shouldn't hurt. There is no excuse for a county of nearly 1,000,000 people, and one of Americas top cities to have roads that dark.

[Spartan]

I've never understood the desire for lighting on interstates. I usually have my headlights on at night. Those things let me see everywhere I'm going. Its great!

[MZT]

The additional light helps keeps drivers awake, -and I presume-, more attentive and safer.

I wouldn't mind the dark so much either if it was everywhere, but what is weird is how the road is lit in some places and not in others. It's a jarring sensation.

Edited October 8, 2007 by MZT

[Creasy336]

I've never understood the desire for lighting on interstates. I usually have my headlights on at night. Those things let me see everywhere I'm going. Its great!

If the Charlotte area interstates that had burnt out lighting had reflectors and brighter striping, then they would be safe and acceptable in most cases. Unfortunately my headlights that help me see great also didn't do that great when I was going through a complex poorly lit I-77/I-277 urban interchange with worn striping, and NO reflectors. Lighting on interstates is not essential, but I-77 in that area is easily the most travelled stretch of interstate in the Carolinas, and safety in that area could definetely become more of an issue as daylight decreases.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Creasy336

[monsoon]

...... I had people in the car scared and nervous when I exited from I-77sb to I-277. I know some forumers from the area have written NCDOT, but one more letter shouldn't hurt. There is no excuse for a county of nearly 1,000,000 people, and one of Americas top cities to have roads that dark.

It would seem to me that in this section there is so much light pollution that it really doesn't matter that much.

[Justadude]

^ Light pollution isn't as severe as you'd expect uptown. Many nights, the skyscrapers turn off their exterior lighting sometime after midnight. Also, some corners of the loop -- near Elmwood Cemetery, for instance -- don't really have much nearby lighting. One thing that I noticed this summer is that you can actually see constellations late at night from 4th Ward Park. In some respects, I'm secretly hoping that the interstate lights stay off a little longer so the skyline views are more dramatic from the highway. [edit: I just noticed that you were referring to the stretch from 77 south to 277; that part, I would agree, seems pretty well lit by other sources]

Anyway, I agree that reflectors could help mitigate the lighting problem. The biggest problem I have is that the ramps at the corners of the loop are unlit. I've driven them enough to anticipate the sharpness of the curves, but it must be nightmarish for visitors just passing through. If a truck with bright lights is behind you, it's just blinding enough to make you unsure of where the lane stripes are -- especially if it's rainy or foggy. I'm amazed that there haven't been more fatal accidents because of this.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Justadude

[Miesian Corners]

I've never understood the desire for lighting on interstates. I usually have my headlights on at night. Those things let me see everywhere I'm going. Its great!

Are you saying that streetlights are a bad thing? I've always thought they've added a little safety to driving at night--especially in urban, high traffic areas. I think the reason so many are upset about the I-77/277 lighting situation is that those freeways are so confusing for many, lighting it is a must. In all the places I've traveled, the ramps on those roads are about the biggest clusterf*ck I've ever had to navigate. Left merging on- off-ramps, the horriffic John Belk/Brookshire/12th St/Davidson St merge/exit weave (what engineer came up with that one?!!?), the John Belk/Independence exit ramp/4th St on-ramp, the ridiculously bad John Belk/I-77/Wilkinson Blvd/Freedom Drive interchange, Brookshire/I-77 (the largest stack in the state for 40 years with its combination of left/right on and off ramps), and finally the wierd and seen nowhere else on earth, I-77/I-85 interchange. Yep, I'd say any additional lighting for the p*sspoor engineering of these areas is a must.

[Spartan]

Are you saying that streetlights are a bad thing? I've always thought they've added a little safety to driving at night--especially in urban, high traffic areas. I think the reason so many are upset about the I-77/277 lighting situation is that those freeways are so confusing for many, lighting it is a must. In all the places I've traveled, the ramps on those roads are about the biggest clusterf*ck I've ever had to navigate. Left merging on- off-ramps, the horriffic John Belk/Brookshire/12th St/Davidson St merge/exit weave (what engineer came up with that one?!!?), the John Belk/Independence exit ramp/4th St on-ramp, the ridiculously bad John Belk/I-77/Wilkinson Blvd/Freedom Drive interchange, Brookshire/I-77 (the largest stack in the state for 40 years with its combination of left/right on and off ramps), and finally the wierd and seen nowhere else on earth, I-77/I-85 interchange. Yep, I'd say any additional lighting for the p*sspoor engineering of these areas is a must.

No, not at all. We definitely need them on city streets. Its only that on interstates they are unnecessary. Traffic is usually pretty light at night (no pun intended). If lights are legitimately needed in key areas due to poor engineering and weird ramps like at 277, thats fine. I just don't think there is enough traffic at night to warrant using the energy to keep lights on along the entire interstate system where its built up.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

The burnt-out lights on Charlotte interstates have been a pet peeve of mine for YEARS. This is a problem that goes back well into the 1990s, if not beyond. There are middle school aged kids out there today who've probably never seen a working streetlight on Brookshire Freeway! All we ever get in Charlotte are excuses from NCDOT. It's all about money - I understand that. But the problem I have with the whole thing is the state sees the lighting as some sort of a luxury. Well, it isn't. Lighting highly congested urban highways - especially the interchanges - is a safety issue. Period. At one point a couple of years ago, I actually called NCDOT to complain about the problem and was told that they only had one person responsible for changing burnt-out lights along Charlotte highways and it was just more than he could keep up with. One person!!

As Miesian Corners said earlier, the I-77/Brookshire Freeway interchange is a horribly designed monster (as is pretty much the entire I-277 loop, with its entrance and exit ramps every few feet). The blind curves, overgrown shrubbery and suddenly vanishing lanes are a hazard to begin with, but the fact that NOT ONE SINGLE LIGHT illuminates any of this at night time is beyond irresponsible on the part of the state. While driving from 77 southbound and exiting onto Brookshire eastbound at night, I oftentimes put my high beams on just so I can see a few feet in front of me. Combine the lack of lighting with the aforementioned absence of decent lane striping and imbedded reflectors in the pavement and you have yourself one huge highway safety hazard. And God forbid it's raining at night - just do your best to figure out where you think the lanes are and try to stay out of the path of other cars and that's about the best you can hope for.

But it's not just the I-77/I-277 areas that are a problem. Drive the length of Interstates 77 or 85 in Charlotte at night and notice that there are miles and miles and miles of inoperable lights - many of them relatively new. Most overhead directional signs have also gone dark and I've pretty much given up hope of ever seeing one of them illuminated again in my lifetime. The fact that NCDOT has let a basic safety aspect of this city's highways fall into such a pathetic state of disrepair is a disgrace!

[pazzo83]

No, not at all. We definitely need them on city streets. Its only that on interstates they are unnecessary. Traffic is usually pretty light at night (no pun intended). If lights are legitimately needed in key areas due to poor engineering and weird ramps like at 277, thats fine. I just don't think there is enough traffic at night to warrant using the energy to keep lights on along the entire interstate system where its built up.

That is not true at all. In the winter months when dark comes much earlier, there is traffic well past sunset. Charlotte is the only major city that I have EVER been to, period, that has this type of problem in its CENTER. Arguments regarding light pollution are ridiculous. It is the center of a metropolitan area with 2 million people. If you want to see the stars at night, don't live in the middle of the city. It is absolutely reprehensible that the freeways near and in uptown are lacking lights. Trying to get from 77 to 277 at night is pretty dangerous. Not to mention you can't see ANY of the overhead signs because they aren't lit up either.

PlazaMidwood, I put my high beams on on that ramp from 77 S to 277/Brookshire too. You can barely see the road otherwise, and it is a very sharp turn. You shouldn't have to use your high beams in the downtown of any major city, period.

Edited October 10, 2007 by pazzo83

[Charlotte_native]

No, not at all. We definitely need them on city streets. Its only that on interstates they are unnecessary. Traffic is usually pretty light at night (no pun intended). If lights are legitimately needed in key areas due to poor engineering and weird ramps like at 277, thats fine. I just don't think there is enough traffic at night to warrant using the energy to keep lights on along the entire interstate system where its built up.

Another big reason for necessary lighting on interstates, interchanges, ramps, etc, is the safety of someone should they breakdown and have to pull over to the side of the road. It isn't just about cars that are actively travelling. I've been brokendown on the side of I-40 at night between Asheville and Hickory -- SCARY stuff -- cars and trucks flying by and likely no one will see you until they are right on you if there isn't some type of lighting other than headlights.

[JerseyBoy]

I wish NCDOT would take some lessons from Florida when it comes to lighting freeways. Even Salisbury gets better treatment with lighting on their widened stretch of 85.

[jfuptown]

Does anyone know if it is illegal or a traffic violation to stop in the middle of a cross walk instead of at the white line?

I am really sick of close calls when walking to and from work in Uptown. People seem to think it