Who do we like for Governor?

[Allison Slater]

All I notise is China China China. I'll probably be voting for Dick just because of Granholm's negative ads. But I'll save final judgement until after a debate.

[gvsusean]

If you look at some of the organizations DeVos helps fund you'll see his support for big and intrusive government. His foundation has given money to the likes of the Acton Foundation, The Heritage Foundation, and Focus on the Family. Remember his ten million dollars wasted on the school vouchers initiative. Being someone who sent my child to Catholic school I still opposed the idea of the state funding what was essentially a religous choice. Also, Ruth Johnson has continually voted agianst school funding. The truth is DeVos will probably not do any better for the Michigan economy than Granholm, but even if he could his social standings are somewhat scary. I love his commercial stating he had to build in China to sell in China........hmmm, maybe they are on to something there......oh, thats not very free trade of me is it. Ah Ha, free trade...maybe that could have something to do with our current problems.

free trade is not what occurs between china and the US... The closer the world gets to true free trade the better off everyone is.

[francishsu]

For those who may not know, the first of the three debates will air tonight starting at 8pm on WGVU, and I assume other PBS stations in Michigan as well.

[krylonics]

All I notise is China China China. I'll probably be voting for Dick just because of Granholm's negative ads. But I'll save final judgement until after a debate.

The USCC released a report stating 54,313 Michigan jobs were lost due to trade with China between 1989-2003. Now that China has increased their capacity for auto parts manufacturing that number is bound to rise. Considering DeVos's past history of lobbying for normal trade relations with China I don't see an end to this if he becomes governor. Lest we forget that a large chunk of our net job loss problem happened between 2000-2003. Granholm took office in 2003 inheriting the problem, what has happened since, job loss has slowed. Is this a result of her policies? Maybe not, but neither is the job losses. With the current state of the auto industy and our states dependence on it, job loss will be inevitable in our near future. No amount of tax breaks, tax restructuring, or the continued lowering of our median income will solve that.

[krylonics]

free trade is not what occurs between china and the US... The closer the world gets to true free trade the better off everyone is.

Our trade with China is not free, its extremely scewed in thier favor. In a some manner I see what you are saying but so far the only thing free trade has done is increased the desparity between haves and have nots.

[francishsu]

One recent story that hasn't received much coverage is the passage of the earned income tax credit. This is one accomplishment that I believe can firmly go to Granholm, with the help of Republican incompetence in crafting their minimum wage increase legislation:

Working poor get tax credit

Alarmed business leaders have said that including mandatory overtime for some workers would drive up costs and probably force them to lay off employees. But Granholm and the Democratic legislative minority held out for a deal that led to the tax break. A goal of Democrats for more than a decade, the credit applies to families at or below the poverty level -- just under $20,000 a year, for example, for a family of four.

The average credit for the approximately 600,000 eligible families is going to be $880.

The only reason the Republicans were willing to finally pass this tax cut, after a decade of opposing it, was because their hastily crafted minimum wage increase legislation inadvertenly created overtime eligibility for some classes of workers who previously would not have had it. Sweet irony.

[RustTown]

What happens with China may be free trade, but it's most definitely not fair trade. It does a good job of making the merchant class richer, but with little benefit for those back home. It seems like most of the money being made over seas by these big corporations rarely come back home to the home employees in a significant way. It seems that these profits actually go back, mainly, to making the administration more wealthy. It would be different if the homes workers were actually seeing substantial increases in their pay/benefits, but they aren't.

[michaelskis]

It would be a nice change if someone would say why they are voting for Granholm based on what Granholm has done, and not what they think that DeVos won

[gvsusean]

Our trade with China is not free, its extremely scewed in thier favor. In a some manner I see what you are saying but so far the only thing free trade has done is increased the desparity between haves and have nots.

the disparity may have increased but it is becoming less haves vs. have-nots and more Haves vs. haves more

[gvsusean]

What happens with China may be free trade, but it's most definitely not fair trade. It does a good job of making the merchant class richer, but with little benefit for those back home. It seems like most of the money being made over seas by these big corporations rarely come back home to the home employees in a significant way. It seems that these profits actually go back, mainly, to making the administration more wealthy. It would be different if the homes workers were actually seeing substantial increases in their pay/benefits, but they aren't.

the workerss may not be seeing a great increase in pay, but they are keeping their jobs (apart from auto industry) the money is with the people and China is beginning to get a middle class with disposable income, a market of 1.3 billion people who want american goods.... we will end up the ones on top.

[RustTown]

It would be a nice change if someone would say why they are voting for Granholm based on what Granholm has done, and not what they think that DeVos won

[francishsu]

the workerss may not be seeing a great increase in pay, but they are keeping their jobs (apart from auto industry) the money is with the people and China is beginning to get a middle class with disposable income, a market of 1.3 billion people who want american goods.... we will end up the ones on top.

Please define what you mean by "American goods". Something where you'd see a label "Made in USA" on it?

[francishsu]

It goes both ways. I don't get the impression that even most DeVos supporters are excited about him. It seems like they are simply voting against Granholm instead of for DeVos, so you can't complain about it. In fact, I'd venture to say that far more people for DeVos are voting against Granholm, than people for Granholm voting against DeVos.

Very well stated, although I don't know if I'd dare take a guess as to your last sentence. Really, Granholm is the open book here. If a person were to take the time, they could do the research and find out what pieces of legislation she supported and signed. Her accomplishments and failures are a matter of public record. Dick Devos does not have a legislative track record and only certain broad aspects of his business accomplishments and failures are public.

[dbrok]

Well, it looks like DeVos is already struggling on the air within the first 5 minutes. Granholm is a better debater and more eloquent speaker. Still it's hard to determine who would be a more effective governor.

[torgo]

I don't get the impression that even most DeVos supporters are excited about him.

I am never "excited" about any politician. I often find myeslf voting for the one I disagree with the least.

They are all a bunch of idiots.

[tamias6]

the workerss may not be seeing a great increase in pay, but they are keeping their jobs (apart from auto industry) the money is with the people and China is beginning to get a middle class with disposable income, a market of 1.3 billion people who want american goods.... we will end up the ones on top.

Don't know about that. At the rate China is going, it will surpass the US as the world's largest economy within the next twenty years. Quite frankly, that makes me very nervous because with being the largest economy in the world the status of being the world's most powerful nation may soon follow.

[GRDadof3]

Well, it looks like DeVos is already struggling on the air within the first 5 minutes. Granholm is a better debater and more eloquent speaker. Still it's hard to determine who would be a more effective governor.

I think the momentum has shifted now. I keep asking myself every time Granholm speaks, "How is what you are saying different now than it was 4 years ago?". "Why is the 21st Century jobs fund only coming together now?" "What good is further investment in education if these students will just take that investment and leave the State?"

[RustTown]

Did anyone watch the debate? DeVos held his own, but he came off looking like he was doing a commercial with every response, cheesy grin and all. I was actually waiting for him to say that he approved his statements. lol Very fake to say the least. Granholm didn't do as well as I thought she would, but I don't think there is any debate that she didn't lose the debate. It was very awkward, really, and I doubt it's going to sway much of anyone.

BTW, being from Lansing I found the question about the Ricky Holland case was done in bad taste. I wanted to see both candidates end it quick, but they ended up dragging it on and going into other subjects. It should have just been dropped altogether.

[francishsu]

I thought Granholm was too verbose in some of her answers. Lots of specifics, but I didn't remember most of them. There were a few positives, like her mannerism when responding to Devos' position that rape and incest should not be exceptions in anti-abortion legislation. Seemed very heartfelt to me. And she did nail him pretty good on that undisclosed $100+ million investment in the care center for Alzheimer's patients where sexual and physical abuse is alleged to have taken place. Devos' answer to that was very evasive in my opinion. The $15 million "Amway tax break" three weeks after a $1 million contribution to the RNC was a good one too.

Devos was the opposite when it came to specifics. I heard very little and it seemed like his only message was that the Governor needs to be accountable and that he would provide the leadership he said was lacking. I expected, as a rich businessman that he'd do better at selling his positions. He failed in this debate, in my opinion, but he's got two more chances. His best moment, in my opinion, was when he talked about the suburb/urban divide. Even though his response lacked specifics, his sounded confident while Granholm got into technicalities.

[craig d]

the workerss may not be seeing a great increase in pay, but they are keeping their jobs (apart from auto industry) the money is with the people and China is beginning to get a middle class with disposable income, a market of 1.3 billion people who want american goods.... we will end up the ones on top.

Dude Americans don't buy American goods. Don't get culture confused with tangible goods.

[francishsu]

I think the momentum has shifted now. I keep asking myself every time Granholm speaks, "How is what you are saying different now than it was 4 years ago?". "Why is the 21st Century jobs fund only coming together now?" "What good is further investment in education if these students will just take that investment and leave the State?"

I would agree with the last two questions you asked in particular and I think these questions would be good follow-up ones to be asked at the next debate. My guess to the answer to the last question is that the types of companies that Granholm wants to bring into Michigan are attracted to a large pool of candidates with higher education degrees. If these new tech companies come to Michigan, then the college graduates will stay in Michigan.

[RustTown]

I thought Granholm was too verbose in some of her answers. Lots of specifics, but I didn't remember most of them. There were a few positives, like her mannerism when responding to Devos' position that rape and incest should not be exceptions in anti-abortion legislation. Seemed very heartfelt to me. And she did nail him pretty good on that undisclosed $100+ million investment in the care center for Alzheimer's patients where sexual and physical abuse is alleged to have taken place. Devos' answer to that was very evasive in my opinion. The $15 million "Amway tax break" three weeks after a $1 million contribution to the RNC was a good one too.

Devos was the opposite when it came to specifics. I heard very little and it seemed like his only message was that the Governor needs to be accountable and that he would provide the leadership he said was lacking. I expected, as a rich businessman that he'd do better at selling his positions. He failed in this debate, in my opinion, but he's got two more chances. His best moment, in my opinion, was when he talked about the suburb/urban divide. Even though his response lacked specifics, his sounded confident while Granholm got into technicalities.

That's what confuses me. Do undecides want someone that knows what they are doing stating specifics, or do they want someone that gives off the impression that they know what they are doing better than the other guy (or girl in this case)?

Granholm may have been great if she had more time, and was talking to an even smaller audience, but I'm not sure how well her specificities are going to fly in a debate where time is a premium. DeVos did give off the apperance of confidence, but I saw right through it. He literally looked like a prereheased robot spoutting off the same things he's been spouting in his commercials, unfortunately.

I wasn't impressed with either. Granholm does great in front of a crowd when the event is unscripted and uncontrolled where she can feed off of the crowd, but it seems she has a hard time being brief and hitting bullet points which may not help her in a debate. She was on her game, but maybe too much show considering the premium on time. DeVos is great with little, memorable catch phrases, but that's about it for substance. Looking into his eyes is like looking directly threw the guy. No one seems to be home.

[Veloise]

Remember "Mystery Science Theatre 3000"? It was like that in the Dem HQ on Cherry Street. Next debate, we're going to make it a drinking game. Every time DV says that he is so very "disappointed," take a drink.

Sure beat sittin' home with the funky TV antennas connected to coax, coathanger, and duct tape.

[francishsu]

That's what confuses me. Do undecides want someone that knows what they are doing stating specifics, or do they want someone that gives off the impression that they know what they are doing better than the other guy (or girl in this case)?

I believe they do want specifics, but you gotta pick and choose a few of the most important (or convincing). You can cite ten specifics, rather than five, in a minutes time, but I bet that most people would remember more in the latter case. I think Clinton was one of the best. He did list his points in a bullet format, with enough pauses between each point to let the listener digest his message. Truly a brilliant debater.

[WOT]

This is an unbelievable train wreck.

For both candidates I might add.

OMG, our state is in more trouble than I thought. The retirement investment accusation was way out of bounds and someone apparently forgot to tell their guy that it is OK to simply answer a question and not revert to a 30 second soundbite.