Who do we like for Governor?

[GRDadof3]

The JD Powers studies are mainly surveys of customers. The customer may not even know the defect is there. Even the Lexus plant they talk about had 32 defects per 100 vehicles. So if a plant produces 50,000 RX300's in a year, then the plant has on average 15,000 defects in a year. That's a lot if you ask me. And the way they classify "defects" is also subjective. If a car comes off of an assembly line and is tested for quality, it may register 350 defects, but only 100 or so are deemed so defective that the process needs to be fixed or the car has to be fixed. The rest of the defects are shipped to the consumer, unbeknownst to them. You have to read publications put out by the Society of Automotive Engineers or other automotive engineering publications to get the real story.

The real problem is is that American made cars usually register 2 - 3 times that amount in either defects or design flaws, but still a whopping improvement of 10 years ago.

My whole point is while the Big 3 are busy chasing the Japanese, they (and the Japanese) are going to get their a**ses handed to them by the Koreans and Chinese.

[civitas]

My whole point is while the Big 3 are busy chasing the Japanese, they (and the Japanese) are going to get their a**ses handed to them by the Koreans and Chinese.

I would suspect that the Japanese manufacturers will rise to the occasion. I'm not confident that the American work ethic (welfare ethic) will allow American manufactures to make the same improvements.

To bring this thread back on topic - CLICK HERE.

[Rizzo]

I would suspect that the Japanese manufacturers will rise to the occasion. I'm not confident that the American work ethic (welfare ethic) will allow American manufactures to make the same improvements.

To bring this thread back on topic - CLICK HERE.

By "welfare" do you mean for the good of the whole, economic assistance, or promoting of well being?

[GRDadof3]

I would suspect that the Japanese manufacturers will rise to the occasion. I'm not confident that the American work ethic (welfare ethic) will allow American manufactures to make the same improvements.

To bring this thread back on topic - CLICK HERE.

You're right, sorry. One other thing and then I'm through on that topic (for a while). The Japanese may step up, but they will not be able to compete on the pricing. Hyundai and Kia may not be up to the same quality standards yet (or ever), but a car that's 40% cheaper, has a 10 year warranty, gets better gas mileage, and the fact that most people only hold on to a car now for 5 years tops, pretty much negates the top quality awards for a lot of people. 95% of Americans can't afford a Lexus anyway. It doesn't help that the largest Korean steel company is State run (I believe), and the same with China's, which gives them unbelievable market force over a very large chunk of an automobile's cost, combined with dirt cheap labor. The only thing that may save the American car makers and manufacturers would be a "labor revolution" in these low-cost labor markets like Mexico, Central America, Asia and Eastern European countries, similar to our own labor revolution in the early 1900's.

[End prophecy of doom].

What does everyone think of Devos claiming he won't take a salary? I personally think he should have saved that one for after the election (if he wins). Now it just makes him look too rich to the average working joe, and it gave the Detroit News an opportunity to splash the headlines with Devos' three homes, one of which is 16,000 square feet on the Thornapple River.

[GRGridGirl]

Big D has invested a lot of money in Heartside and has a history of being very high-design in every building he has been involved with (as has the rest of his family and Betsy and her family in Holland).

Does small g have any personal experience in community building or development outside of state subsidies?

civitas,

You didn't answer my question and for as old as you are, I don't take you as the question for question game type. I wasn't asking how much money the big D has invested in historic districts, but what his platform is on historic preservation.

In case you didn't know: "Context Sensitive Design uses a collaborative, interdisciplinary approach that includes early involvement of key stakeholders to ensure that transportation projects are not only

[civitas]

civitas,

You didn't answer my question and for as old as you are, I don't take you as the question for question game type. I wasn't asking how much money the big D has invested in historic districts, but what his platform is on historic preservation.

In case you didn't know: "Context Sensitive Design uses a collaborative, interdisciplinary approach that includes early involvement of key stakeholders to ensure that transportation projects are not only "moving safely and efficiently," but are also in harmony with the natural, social, economic, and cultural environment."

-3G4G

tricky, tricky.....

Sorry. I have no idea what his formal platform is, I only know what his background has been. I suspect that one will inform the other.

I missed the point of the quote. Where is it from?

[MJLO]

With all of this debate, I suspect that whomever may be in office come election time. My money, however not my vote being on Granholm. That you will see little difference in your quality of life, or the way the state is run. The way I see it, in order for Devos to win this election he has to position himself so far in the center from where his family is on the right. That when in office if his policies didn't reflect his campaign it would be political suicide. Granted I have little idea where things stand on this, being that I'm in Phoenix 2000 miles away. But I do know this,

Michigan is the poster child for the American moderate. So whatever candidate wins, will be the most middle of the road, boring soul. This debate is centered in West Michigan. However Michigan politics are influenced, almost entirely by the much more populous I-75 corridor.

[francishsu]

Korean automakers like Hyundai and Kia, along with newcomers from China like Chery are more of an immediate threat to the Big Three than to Honda and Toyota. Ford and GM keep having to offer ridiculous incentives just to try to stave off losing more market share and having more and more competition from a pricing standpoint is going to hurt them first.

Honda and Toyota not only have quality and reputation working for them, but their innovation as well. They are ahead in the race for producing viable alternative fuel vehicles, and the Korean and Chinese automakers have no chance of beating them in this decade or the next. Hyundai and Kia recently had to postpone their first hybrid vehicles to 2009. That's just ridiculous. For anyone who believes that a Korean or Chinese automaker is going to surpass Honda or Toyota in market share, I'd like to know how many years out they are projecting for that to happen.

[gvsusean]

who cares if devos is a millionaire, the face that he wont take the salary is very respectable, he would volunteer thousands of hours over his governship. GO DEVOS

[GRDadof3]

Honda and Toyota not only have quality and reputation working for them, but their innovation as well. They are ahead in the race for producing viable alternative fuel vehicles, and the Korean and Chinese automakers have no chance of beating them in this decade or the next. Hyundai and Kia recently had to postpone their first hybrid vehicles to 2009. That's just ridiculous. For anyone who believes that a Korean or Chinese automaker is going to surpass Honda or Toyota in market share, I'd like to know how many years out they are projecting for that to happen.

Hybrids are still such a small share of the U.S. market (and actually shrinking), that I don't think innovations in those technologies are going to thrust anyone ahead. As the rising cost of autos continues to outstrip rises in income (much like housing) the low cost options are going to continue to eat up market share.

I would say in 10 years. Remember, it was only about 15 - 18 years ago when the Japanese made junky cars. When I was much younger, I owned a 1986 Honda Accord that was the biggest piece of junk and had tons of problems with it. In fact, the factory installed sun-roof rusted right out and flew off of the car on the interstate. A year later, the shocks rusted right through the quarter panels.

Some of you might be too young to remember those days. The movie Gung Ho in 1986 was right about the time when the Japanese automakers were starting to make some inroads.

[francishsu]

I would say in 10 years. Remember, it was only about 15 - 18 years ago when the Japanese made junky cars.

Only 10 years? Well, at least I'll say you've got some guts to make that prediction. I happen to have access to detailed automotive sales forecasts, currently through 2012, and I see no chance of that in 10 years.

And my argument regarding the alternative fuel technologies is that they will continue to solidify Honda and Toyota as a leader in innovation and quality. And those technologies will trickle down into their low-end offerings as well. Inferior imports and domestics will continue to be forced to offer multi-year 0% financing on competing models, in addition to lower prices, in order to sway customers who would otherwise be willing to pay more for a better brand. Those concessions hit automakers' bottom line and further hurt their ability to complete long-term.

As for your history lesson, you leave out the fact that domestic automakers were complacent and slow to adapt to the changing market. You aren't going to see that with Honda or Toyota.

[RustTown]

who cares if devos is a millionaire, the face that he wont take the salary is very respectable, he would volunteer thousands of hours over his governship. GO DEVOS

Huh? The whole point that he doesn't need the money just makes the promise all the more hollow. To say that the fact that he doesn't need it doesn't make a difference is ridiculous. It's like people giving up candy for Lent. It's not impressive, and rings very hollow. Actually, it's downright insulting to any thoughtful person's sensibilities. You give away things/pleasures you want and like to show committment and selflessness, not things you don't need.

[GRDadof3]

Only 10 years? Well, at least I'll say you've got some guts to make that prediction. I happen to have access to detailed automotive sales forecasts, currently through 2012, and I see no chance of that in 10 years.

And my argument regarding the alternative fuel technologies is that they will continue to solidify Honda and Toyota as a leader in innovation and quality. And those technologies will trickle down into their low-end offerings as well. Inferior imports and domestics will continue to be forced to offer multi-year 0% financing on competing models, in addition to lower prices, in order to sway customers who would otherwise be willing to pay more for a better brand. Those concessions hit automakers' bottom line and further hurt their ability to complete long-term.

As for your history lesson, you leave out the fact that domestic automakers were complacent and slow to adapt to the changing market. You aren't going to see that with Honda or Toyota.

Thank you.

Honda and Toyota may stay the leaders in innovation and quality, but will that automatically translate into sustained high levels of sales? Don't underestimate the Walmart mentality of the American public. You may have access to sales "forecasts", but what did those same forecasts predict where Hyundai and Kia would be today? Most likely not quadruple the growth they've attained. So maybe they won't supplant Toyota and Honda, but they'll certainly be right on their tails.

[civitas]

When I was much younger, I owned a 1986 Honda Accord that was the biggest piece of junk and had tons of problems with it. In fact, the factory installed sun-roof rusted right out and flew off of the car on the interstate. A year later, the shocks rusted right through the quarter panels.

I think you had a lemon (or else you haven't told the whole story about how you drove your Honda . Come on, you can tell us. We won't tell your kids.

I bought two Honda accords in 1981 and thought they were fine cars. Before that I drove a Toyota Celica that was even better. After the Accords I had a Mazda RX7 that was fantastic.

Except for a short time with an Oldsmobile station wagon while the kids were young, I've been driving German cars ever since. Although the Japanese cars didn't have the luxuries of a BMW, I thought they were well made and dependable. I can't recall any problems related to manufacturing that made me take them back for repair. I'm sure they weren't perfect (although I'm pretty fussy with cars), but they were dependable and were far better than comperable American iron.

I spent a summer working on the assembly line at Oldsmobile. That experience kept me in college. Missed a part, don't worry, someone will catch it down the line.

[francishsu]

Huh? The whole point that he doesn't need the money just makes the promise all the more hollow. To say that the fact that he doesn't need it doesn't make a difference is ridiculous. It's like people giving up candy for Lent. It's not impressive, and rings very hollow.

I agree, and with the Republican controlled legislature, the legislation he signs will do more to increase his personal fortune than the salary he would get as governor.

[Rizzo]

Huh? The whole point that he doesn't need the money just makes the promise all the more hollow. To say that the fact that he doesn't need it doesn't make a difference is ridiculous. It's like people giving up candy for Lent. It's not impressive, and rings very hollow. Actually, it's downright insulting to any thoughtful person's sensibilities. You give away things/pleasures you want and like to show committment and selflessness, not things you don't need.

I don't think anyone could have said it any better.

[civitas]

Huh? The whole point that he doesn't need the money just makes the promise all the more hollow. To say that the fact that he doesn't need it doesn't make a difference is ridiculous. It's like people giving up candy for Lent. It's not impressive, and rings very hollow. Actually, it's downright insulting to any thoughtful person's sensibilities. You give away things/pleasures you want and like to show committment and selflessness, not things you don't need.

The State of Michigan needs the money more than DeVos. Its a small gesture for him, but maybe one that allows others to keep their jobs. Its just a gesture. You can judge it to be a big or small gesture, but you shouldn't be "downright insulted" by it.

Remember when Lee Iaccoca was head of Chrysler and cut his salary to $1 when they were in deep doo-doo? He didn't need the money either, but it was a huge gesture for him to take the first step when he didn't have to. The unions followed and major entertainers did Chrysler ads for $1. Chrysler was saved from bankruptcy under his leadership.

[MJLO]

I've heard different things, but as I remember Lee Iococa, was pretty legendary as a leader

I've heard different things, but as I remember Lee Iococa, was pretty legendary as a leader

[RustTown]

Civitas, any follower or politics should be insulted when any politician downright panders to the general public to get votes knowing what they are doing, and that includes Granholm, as well. As has been said, Granholm needs her salary to support her family, and she already gives back a small percentage of it (5%):

BTW, here was a good Detroit News editorial today by Nolan Finley, and Nolan Finley isn't exactly a Granholm supporter, and that's an understatement:

DeVos blunders off economic message

Nolan Finley

September 24, 2006

J obs. Jobs. Jobs. Whenever Dick DeVos hears himself talking about anything else for the duration of the gubernatorial campaign, it should be a clue for him to just shut up.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../1008/OPINION01

I really do wish the Michigan GOP would have came up with a better candidate.

[civitas]

I really do wish the Michigan GOP would have came up with a better candidate.

In all the years I've been voting I don't think I've ever not said about everybody running for office in both parties. They all seem to be less than perfect for one reason or another and it is always a disappointment when they do silly things for votes - but they all do it. I'm afraid that the sucking up to the average (majority) voter is a necessary part of the election process.

How many times have you heard an election reduced to the need to vote for "the lessor of 2 evils"? We are by nature critical and suspicious and we look for faults more than strengths. That's not a bad trait, but, unfortunately, we all have faults and then our candidates begin to look less like the heroes we wish they could be.

For me the Democratic party has been more about entitlements, welfare, justice for the working man (unions). The Republican party cares about people too, but believes that a strong economy based in strong companies that produce jobs is the road to success. It seems to me that Michigan is at a point where it is in critical need of leadership that will focus on the failing business climate more than it needs a focus on social programs. I know that's a gross oversimplification of the parties, but I think the point is valid.

I can't imagine why Dick DeVos would want to be governor of Michigan, but I know that he has much more experience with business than Granholm and will surround himself with experts who know even more than he does. I don't think either candidate is the lessor of 2 evils. They are both good people. But given the state of this State, a serious business focus wins for me.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Winston Churchill

[gvsusean]

All right, fine. Ill run for the Libertarian party. All hail Emporer Sean, Lord of ALL Living Things

[francishsu]

Thank you.

Honda and Toyota may stay the leaders in innovation and quality, but will that automatically translate into sustained high levels of sales? Don't underestimate the Walmart mentality of the American public. You may have access to sales "forecasts", but what did those same forecasts predict where Hyundai and Kia would be today? Most likely not quadruple the growth they've attained. So maybe they won't supplant Toyota and Honda, but they'll certainly be right on their tails.

If you continually innovate and deliver quality at a reasonable price for cars, I believe that does lead to sustained high level of sales. I don't believe that the Wal-Mart mentality is as strong a factor for car sales as you imply. The Wal-Mart mentality is strongest for purchasing disposable goods. Cars, on the other hand, are multi-year investments, where things factors like image, reliability and resale values come into play. And many people seem willing to stretch their finances to the limit to get the car they want.

[snoogit]

All right, fine. Ill run for the Libertarian party. All hail Emporer Sean, Lord of ALL Living Things

If you're a libertarian, wouldn't you be against a Monarchy?

[RustTown]

Civitas,

I think you misunderstand me. To me, DeVos is a particularly bad candidate, and especially for a state like Michigan. Elections usually are choosing between the lesser of two evils, but, for me, DeVos seems particularly out of step and out of sync with mainstream Michigan, and probably one of the most lackluster "stars" of the Michigan GOP. It should come as no surprise that I'm not a Republican, but being as objective as I can be, it seems to me that Betsy's influence and Dick's money got him the nomination, because the Michigan GOP doesn't seem to be all to excited about him, and that's an understatement. It just seems like he forced himself in, better GOP candidates be damned. Forget my objection to his far right wing social beliefs, what bothers me just as much, if not more, is that he seems like a Bush prototype. You know, the candidate with a rich and famous (or infamous) father that wouldn't have even been an option for the GOP if it were not for his name and money. I just hate people who wouldn't have otherwise ever been considered for public service, considered because of their name and money be it DeVos, Bush, or any of the Kennedy's. You put all that together, and for me, at least, the guy is a total disaster for this state. Granholm has her faults, but if you want to talk the lesser of two evils, she can do far less to hurt Michigan than DeVos could. An underwhelming choice, and setting the bar low, I know.

[GRGridGirl]

I walked by the Big D this afternoon, he's unusually tan for this time of the year.