Who do we like for Governor?

[torgo]

poll last night said that 68% thought Granholm won, and 32% said DeVos won.

Granholm 1, DeVos 0.

[AlexPKeaton]

Meh, neither are eloquent speakers. DeVos sounds like a robot, and Granholm just doesn't have any weight to her voice. I'm much closer to DeVos idealogically so I'll be voting for him. I wish he would have countered the whole "investing in China" argument with how much he and his family have invested in West Michigan over the years.

Also, the ads attacking DeVos for "eliminating" 1400 jobs or so at Amway are misleading as well. Amway is a business, and they're not there just to keep people employed. If Amway is to compete globally it has to remain profitable. If a company isn't profitable it goes out of business and then nobody is employed.

Free trade hurts in the short term, but in the long term benefits surely outweight short-term protectionist policies.

-nb

[francishsu]

Latest Zogby poll (no details available) for the last week of September has Granholm at 50% and Devos at 41%. That's the second recent poll with Granholm at the 50% mark. If she receives a slight uptick in the polls from the first debate, then it will be possible for her seal the election at the next debate, in my opinion.

[localtalent]

Where did I say research is ever going to disprove Intelligent Design? In fact, no research can disprove a Creationist theory, because of our miniscule presence and understanding of the universe. All I said is that I think many proponents of ID are going to come to regret some of the research that is spawned by it. How do you feel about creating genetically engineered advanced life forms? That's one way of providing strong support for ID. If we achieve that, then we could have very well been engineered ourselves. And if we were engineered, then what's wrong with mankind becoming creators of new life forms as well?

OK, sorry...I read something that wasn't there. My bad.

Reading comprehension skills lacking this morning.

[civitas]

Devos' position on this issue is consistent with yours then. And I don't believe it is representative of the majority of the people in any state in this nation. Scientific research into ID is certainly understandable, but introducing it at the K-12 level in science class is simply putting the cart before the horse. And I suspect that many of the ID supporters, who seem to be out to "prove" that their faith is fact, are not going to be so thrilled with some of the future research it's going to spawn.

I don't intend to spark a debate about faith in general, but I feel a need to offer a few clarifications about faith and fact from a believer's point-of-view.

People of true faith don't need to "prove" that their faith is fact. By definition (Webster), faith is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof." The Bible says the same, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see...."

The Bible also says that God is clearly seen in creation. "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." In that regard, I believe that any sincere study of the universe will offer a glimpse of God. And to that end, I am much more concerned that the educational system continues a strong emphasis on science than I am about what you call it.

Regarding ID, scientists work with hypothesis, theory and physical law. The first two are ideas that are not "proven" and even the last is always open to being proved false. Evolution is a theory (it cannot be proven through experimentation). If intellegent design is a reasonable hypothesis or a theory, it seems that it should also be taught and considered. If we sincerely study the wonderful complexities of the universe, it is hard for me to imagine anyone at least not wondering about an intelligent designer. Aren't we way too "wonderfully made" to completely reject the thought?

[allbusiness]

Gosh, and I was so surprised to hear that DeVos personally molested all those elderly Alzheimers patients. What a cheesy thing for the governor to bring up in the last 5 minutes of a debate. She seemed desperate to sling some mud at her opponent and grabbed at some obscure issue to do it.

The guy invested in a company that hired some employees that committed some pretty awful crimes. They were prosecuted. He dropped the investment. Move on. Trying to attach him to the crimes that were committed is just a pathetic attempt on her part.

There are real issues in Michigan that are not even being discussed.

[gvsusean]

Please define what you mean by "American goods". Something where you'd see a label "Made in USA" on it?

People in Asia LOVE American products and ideas... Im not talking shirts our VCR's but selling of chains of restaurants, rights/patents to use products, hell even Amway junk

[gvsusean]

Don't know about that. At the rate China is going, it will surpass the US as the world's largest economy within the next twenty years. Quite frankly, that makes me very nervous because with being the largest economy in the world the status of being the world's most powerful nation may soon follow.

Their economic growth rate is enormous approx. 9% It is doubtful they will be able to maintain that for the near future... In fact they are trying to slow it done to prevent a severe crash. Even if they manage to garner a greater GDP they have a LONG way to surpass our GDP per capita which is 30 times greater (and we are growing at approx. 2-3% a year

Dude Americans don't buy American goods. Don't get culture confused with tangible goods.

ok???? I didnt say Americans buy American goods?? but that corn I had last night was great

[francishsu]

Regarding ID, scientists work with hypothesis, theory and physical law. The first two are ideas that are not "proven" and even the last is always open to being proved false. Evolution is a theory (it cannot be proven through experimentation).

Just to clarify, you must be addressing "macroevolution". The processes of mutatation and natural selection have already been observed many times over within a species, to the point where even most intelligent design proponents concede that evolution at a smaller scale, e.g. "microevolution" does indeed occur.

[civitas]

Just to clarify, you must be addressing "macroevolution". The processes of mutatation and natural selection have already been observed many times over within a species, to the point where even most intelligent design proponents concede that evolution at a smaller scale, e.g. "microevolution" does indeed occur.

Amen

[AlexPKeaton]

I would expect China to surpass us, and that's not a bad thing necessarily. They have a lot more people than the US, so eventually they will carry more weight. Just think though, once they have a middle class similar to what we have in the US, wages there won't be so cheap in comparison. I'd be much more worried about how much our government spends and how little Americans save.

-nb

[craig d]

Gosh, and I was so surprised to hear that DeVos personally molested all those elderly Alzheimers patients. What a cheesy thing for the governor to bring up in the last 5 minutes of a debate. She seemed desperate to sling some mud at her opponent and grabbed at some obscure issue to do it.

The guy invested in a company that hired some employees that committed some pretty awful crimes. They were prosecuted. He dropped the investment. Move on. Trying to attach him to the crimes that were committed is just a pathetic attempt on her part.

There are real issues in Michigan that are not even being discussed.

Well, you missed her point...and that is really her fault because she didn't express it clearly enough. She wasn't attacking him for molesting Alzheimers. She was attacking him for not disclosing this investment in his comprehensive tax document which he stated had all of his investments in. This would obviously lead the critical thinking public of what other investments did he not include. But I agree with you that she seemed desperate to sling mud at that point.

gvsusean - I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I should have finished my 'Americans don't buy American goods' with 'so why would you expect the Chinese?' Not every Chinese person is in the market to become a restaurant owner and the food they would serve (Americanized) would certainly be bought in Asia and prepared by trained Chinese cooks to taste "American." I guess I'm just not sold on the idea that the Chinese are hungry for American products..simply because most of our popular culture products are made in other countries in the first place.

[Weallneedhistory]

Well, you missed her point...and that is really her fault because she didn't express it clearly enough. She wasn't attacking him for molesting Alzheimers. She was attacking him for not disclosing this investment in his comprehensive tax document which he stated had all of his investments in. This would obviously lead the critical thinking public of what other investments did he not include. But I agree with you that she seemed desperate to sling mud at that point.

1. I don't think anyone, including the Gov., suspected DeVos of physically molesting Alzheimer patients (I hope no one did, good grief). However I found it in poor taste that Granholm felt the need to drag the extra information onto the floor, instead of just asking why he didn't include Altera in his list of investments,( if he did in fact not include it in his list. I have not seen the list).

2. What is it that people are hoping to find by DeVos releasing his tax records, apart from fulfilling their own curiousity on how much money he himself has apart from his father? Or are people just filled with a curiousity or desire to know everything he owns or holds stock in. Or are people hoping that by showing how much money he has, that this somehow makes him unfit to be Governor?

a. If he has invested illiegally, has holdings that are not legit, or has somehow cheated on his Tax Returns, thats the IRS' job to track, not the general public.

b. If you are undecided, and need to know what he has donated money towards before you vote, understand he is a strong GOP member. Do people really think he would fund anything that is non-GOP oriented? Whether or not he owned stock in a nursing home once would not change my vote, whether or not he included it on his "public issue statement." (I realize there is a worry about conflicts of interest. If he becomes governor, I do think more would be made public...by him or by others. I don't think there needs to be a worry over conflict of interest. Besides, he'll have Congress to deal with still, we're not a Totalitarian government here).

I personally believe more people want him to release his tax info. just because people are nosy than for any worries over political influence for personal gain.

3. Creation taught in public schools is completely different from Creation taught in public school science classes.

I was disappointed in both speakers last night. DeVos obviously has less talent as a debater. He seemed to grasp the question, formulate it in his head, and then seek out the closest pre-written reply his campaign party had given him. I don't like that, its not natural, he doesn't appear that way in real life.

Granholm on the other hand did have some off-hand remarks, and needed to let of the China argument. Both of them need to have their mic's cut off at the end of the 3o seconds or minute they're allotted.

Can't wait for WOOD-TV8's debate.

[civitas]

Well, you missed her point...and that is really her fault because she didn't express it clearly enough. She wasn't attacking him for molesting Alzheimers. She was attacking him for not disclosing this investment in his comprehensive tax document which he stated had all of his investments in. This would obviously lead the critical thinking public of what other investments did he not include. But I agree with you that she seemed desperate to sling mud at that point.

While she didn't say that DeVos personally molested anyone, she did clearly suggest that he was somehow personally responsible. I thought that was the low point of her debate. She sounded like a thug and wasn't very good at it.

Isn't that the kind of mud that a politician has someone else leak so they don't get their hands dirty?

[Weallneedhistory]

While she didn't say that DeVos personally molested anyone, she did clearly suggest that he was somehow personally responsible. I thought that was the low point of her debate. She sounded like a thug and wasn't very good at it.

Isn't that the kind of mud that a politician has someone else leak so they don't get their hands dirty?

I am in complete agreement. That was pretty low. I thought DeVos looked somewhat surprised, but who could fault him? I would be suprised if someone accused me of being responsible of a terrible crime in a company, just because I owned some stock in it.

[Michi]

1. I don't think anyone, including the Gov., suspected DeVos of physically molesting Alzheimer patients (I hope no one did, good grief). However I found it in poor taste that Granholm felt the need to drag the extra information onto the floor, instead of just asking why he didn't include Altera in his list of investments,( if he did in fact not include it in his list. I have not seen the list).

I agree with you that it is a bit weak to have had to go as far into it as she did. I am, however glad that she did bring it up. I think it was a valid speculation as to why he DIDN'T disclose that particular tax information. After bringing it up, I would have simply passed it along to DeVos to explain himself, but Granholm stuck with it too long which made her look weak and a bit uncertain by the time she was done with it. That was the one part of the debate that made me nervous for Granholm. But then Dick bombed it by not providing any clearity, which gave Granholm a rebound.

[GRDadof3]

Apparently, the Democrats are ramping up on the nursing home thing:

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5492994

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...NEWS99/61003013

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/in...st=newsmichigan

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily...ss/15671037.htm

That's just scummy. She did very much try to infer that he was responsible for what happened because he was a very large shareholder. That's ludicrous, and makes her look like she doesn't understand what a shareholder is.

I thought Granholm was supposedly the clear winner???

[Michi]

While I agree with you on both the scummy referral and that democrats are going over board with this, I think it is a fair comparison to DeVos' belief that Granholm is responsible for Selepak and Ricky Holland simply because she is governor. She has a responsibility to the prison and judicial system, as chief of state, and if DeVos truely feels this way, he should take accountability by recognizing the parallel that his investment in the nursing home has to the governor's fault.

I think it was an acceptable way to segue into the "hidden agendas" question by offering a specific incident, but in all fairness, he DID respond...and plus it makes the company look bad. Democrats should drop it now.

[francishsu]

The Alterra investment was a smart move by Granholm. It rattled Devos, putting him on the defensive and got exposure in the media. I'm not sure how the less than 1% of shares claim made by Devos is reconciled with the information in the Alterra 10-K filing in 2003.

This also happens to be an example of where Devos made a large investment in a company which was about to restructure. Along with the investment, the Devos family effectively got to pick four of the nine board members, including the board chairman. Three years later, Alterra had to file for bankruptcy and got broken up and sold in pieces. In between were the allegations and investigation of sex abuse.

[GRDadof3]

While I agree with you on both the scummy referral and that democrats are going over board with this, I think it is a fair comparison to DeVos' belief that Granholm is responsible for Selepak and Ricky Holland simply because she is governor. She has a responsibility to the prison and judicial system, as chief of state, and if DeVos truely feels this way, he should take accountability by recognizing the parallel that his investment in the nursing home has to the governor's fault.

I think it was an acceptable way to segue into the "hidden agendas" question by offering a specific incident, but in all fairness, he DID respond...and plus it makes the company look bad. Democrats should drop it now.

Yes, but she is the Chief Executive Officer of the State and the prison system. To be the largest (or large) shareholder is another story. Even to pick four board members doesn't put him in an executive position. Board members are usually just consultants anyway. The comparison by the Dems is weak at best.

With that being said, the Ricky Holland thing is just political opportunism as well. People have and will always slip through any system, no matter who's in charge.

[civitas]

Yes, but she is the Chief Executive Officer of the State and the prison system. To be the largest (or large) shareholder is another story. Even to pick four board members doesn't put him in an executive position. Board members are usually just consultants anyway. The comparison by the Dems is weak at best.

With that being said, the Ricky Holland thing is just political opportunism as well. People have and will always slip through any system, no matter who's in charge.

"He made a huge investment in this company," Michigan Democratic Party Chairman Mark Brewer said of Alterra Healthcare Corp., which went bankrupt in 2003 and was folded into another company. "Dick DeVos had the responsibility to care for vulnerable senior citizens at Alterra."

This sounds criminal. Shouldn't the governor have DeVos immediately arrested?

[craig d]

"He made a huge investment in this company," Michigan Democratic Party Chairman Mark Brewer said of Alterra Healthcare Corp., which went bankrupt in 2003 and was folded into another company. "Dick DeVos had the responsibility to care for vulnerable senior citizens at Alterra."

This sounds criminal. Shouldn't the governor have DeVos immediately arrested?

lol the democrats are such baffoons for pursuing this.

[AlexPKeaton]

For me the low point was the question at the end about how much influence each candidates spouses have in their decision making process. What a retarded and pointless question. How can you you even answer that? "Yes, my wife makes all my decisions for me" or "no, I don't listen to her, she's just a girl"?! And really, who cares!?

-nb

[francishsu]

Yes, but she is the Chief Executive Officer of the State and the prison system. To be the largest (or large) shareholder is another story. Even to pick four board members doesn't put him in an executive position. Board members are usually just consultants anyway.

Actually the chairman of the board that they picked, Jerry Tubergen, was president and CEO of the Devos family private investment company RDV Corporation.

[eagle]

Intelligent Design: I think people are confusing the teaching of intelligent design in science class with the teaching of religion in science class. Evolution is a theory and can not be proven. Many very credible scientists have shown the numerous holes in evolutionary theory. Intelligent design is also a theory that can't be proven. Many very credible scientists would argue though that there is just as much evidence, if not more, to prove intelligent design over a random big bang.

I don't want science teachers teaching our kids religion, how to be "saved" etc. I am very comfortable however with our science teachers teaching evolution as one theory and another theory that something larger than us created us. Could be the Christian God, or a giant Matrix like computer. I don't care. The fact is that many people, including scientists believe in an Intelligent Designer. This can be taught very reasonably without promoting a specific religion. I think it's very reasonable to look at the evidence and believe that some larger force out their created our univers. Again, this can be taught as a theory without teaching religion.

Altera Nursing Homes: I almost started laughing as Granholm used her best skills as an actress to make this accusation. How absurd. How many of us have ownership in a company either through a mutual fund or through a stock broker that could someday be accused of illegal actions? You can't possibly be responsible for the behaviors of every company you happen to own stock in. It was funny when it was revealed that Michael Moore actually owns Haliburton stock through a mutual fund.

Mr. DeVos disclosed the companies he has current ownership in. He doesn't currently own Altera stock. Do we honestly expect someone with millions of dollars to disclose every company he has ever owned stock in? What a lame attempt by the Governor. I was waiting for the Clinton Tears to start falling when she told of how Dick DeVos is responsible for sexually abusing our elderly.

I think he did an O.K. job of answering this attack. I also think he did a good job handling the accusation that he lobbied congress for a personal tax break. I hope the average undecided voter can understand how lobbying to remove a tax penalty can be good for the emplyees of a company.

The next two will be interesting.