Riverfront Property Proposal(s)?

[GRDadof3]

Developer tries to ease fears.....GR Press

Interesting quote from Sam Cummings:

"They're fluff, but everybody has fluff," he said.

"But by the nature of them, they obviously have worked with these people before.

"They couldn't just walk in to these people and say, 'Will you write a letter of credit?'"

Same with Hill International Construction. If I e-mailed over my sketchup stuff, they'd say "Uhhhh, what?".

[mgreven]

I think the "end of discussion" comments were simply another way of saying let's not get

When I said, "It dumb to debate that" I meant in this Riverfront thread...I didn't want to see it get taken over by another discussion.

[HolidayInnExpress]

It might be factoring into people's opinions. I say might, because saying it is makes such a statement just as prejudice as any racist comment.

The fact is Faust is getting prejudiced on more than just his skin tone.

1) He's being prejudiced against for his perceived lack of money.

2) He's being prejudiced against because his "vision" is bold and unrestrained compared to others of more conservative natures.

3) He's being prejudiced against because his name is Faust from California, and not Meijer, DeVos, or VanAndel from Grand Rapids.

4) He's being prejudiced against for being an unknown name

5) And he might be being prejudiced against because he is black.

Fact: Faust is not in Grand Rapids' "inner circle" so he's going to have to fight prejudice over a much broader range than just his skin tone, and he'd have the same thing in any other city, state, or nation in the world today.

I don't understand why 1- 4 are absolute certainties, based upon how you presented them, while 5 is spurious? How can you bare witness to the thoughts of the pool of critics to make a determination of which is certainty and which is conjecture? I think at best all one can do is

[francishsu]

Bias based on skin color could very well be A factor in people's opinions of Duane Faust, but I counter that those who argue that racism is the primary factor in the evaluation of Mr. Faust are just as naive. Those that would argue that a positive CONSENSUS opinion of Mr. Faust would exist if he were a white man I believe are sadly mistaken. At best, you can argue the degree of negativity would be less, but there are a number of events that occured which, in my opinion, makes skepticism reasonable in this case. The same goes for the other two proposals as well.

UPDATE:

Well, I have to admit that this made me think about the OJ Simpson polls. After reading the poll numbers taken in 2004, maybe I am indeed the naive one in speculating about the impact of race.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5139346/

Q1: From what you've heard, do you think O. J. Simpson murdered Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

Total White Black Other

Yes 77% 87% 29% 68%

No 22

[tamias6]

Okey, here my take on this project from how I understand it. First I think, its flattering that a developer is even thinking about investing up to 2.5 billion dollars in this humble mid sized mid western city we call Grand Rapids, a city in a state who's econamy is reminecent to all the abandoned factories rusting away all over the state. That's great. But wait did we hear 2.5 billion dollars, and up to 10,000 jobs added to the local economy? Those numbers are huge! They would translate into a development of a magnatude not seen in GR since the Urban Renewal Project that took place in the 60's resulting in Culder Plaza. At 2.5 Billion dollars maybe this proposed development would make that 60's Urban Renewal Project look like a little kid's sand box. Added to that those 10,000 jobs would be a very big shot in the local economy's arm.

Granted I would love to see something this big happen in GR. The city desperately needs the revenue that it would garner from the massive amount of property tax it would collect from a 2.5 billion dollar development as well as the taxes generated from those 10,000 jobs and the sales tax garnered from the retail portion of the developent. But if I were the city and I heard these kind of big numbers being tossed around, esp. from a developer that has never tackled a project this big and who was keeping alot of info vailed in mystery, I would be asking questions. I would want to know this developer's creditials. I would be asking questions to cities with projects done by this developer. Are his developments providing positive or nagative impacts to the cities to which they were built in.? I would like to see a portfolio of past projects. Are they beautiful or ugly? I'm no expert when it comes to city planning. But when something as big as what is being proposed here comes out of the blue, common sence should be the court and a bit of coution should be the judge. As much as I would like the city to give the green light to somthing as big as this proposol, I don't want Grand Rapids to go into this blindly and risk ending up with a 2.5 billion dollar monument to urben blight ethier. Therefore at this stage of the game I think the city is right to be asking questions.

[GRGyp]

I don't understand why 1- 4 are absolute certainties, based upon how you presented them, while 5 is spurious? How can you bare witness to the thoughts of the pool of critics to make a determination of which is certainty and which is conjecture? I think at best all one can do is

[HolidayInnExpress]

Because nobody has come right out and questioned his ability to pull this project off because he is black. Yes, some maybe thinking it, but no one has said it. The other four have been concerns actually voiced via the news and in this forum as well.

If evidence comes forward showing that someone doesn't beleive Faust can't do this simply because he's black, then we'll have a certainty on the racial issue. Until then it's just an educated assumption at best.

I'm not naive enough to beleive that the race card might be out there in someone's mind, but I tend to think the other four issues Faust is being prejudiced against are more contributing factors to the opposition he is facing right now than the color of his skin. The way some people are acting, it's only the color of his skin that's effecting this process right now.

Well, I think that it was the Temptations that had a song with lyrics that said that one should believe half of what they see and nothing that they hear. You seem to suggest the belief in the veracity of everything that people say in an age where communication is used as much, if not more so, for creating deception than to communicate truths. Obviously in this day and age where people fear the scarlet letter of being labeled racist they likely use some other vocalized rationalization for being in opposition to a person of color. I am not suggesting that this is what happened in regards to Faust, but I think that it is highly unlikely that anyone wants to go on record for casting aspersion due to his color and face the implications.

Again, unless you can read peoples mind, 1- 4 are still uncertainties because what people say is no guarantee for what they actually believe or are being motivated by. Two things I know are certainties, however. One: This nation has come a longs ways in race relations. Two: This nation has a long ways to go in relations. I think that sometimes the former prematurely convinces people that the latter is not true.

[twoshort]

Do you have some sort of radar for discussions like this??

[HolidayInnExpress]

Do you have some sort of radar for discussions like this??

Yes I do. My wife is African American. That does not make me an expert on African Americans but my awarness to racial conscerns has greatly increased. I see things now that I did not see in the past.

Besides....it seems that you have a radar that is out to detect others radars so that you can jam them? Is this the case?

[mejane]

Two things I know are certainties, however. One: This nation has come a longs ways in race relations. Two: This nation has a long ways to go in relations. I think that sometimes the former prematurely convinces people that the latter is not true.

This nation has come a long way in race relations due to the Civil Rights Movement.

We'd all like to believe that humanity and our society would have just evolved

naturally to a place where race is disregarded when summing a person up, but it took

a movement to make discrimination based on race illegal.

The resulting laws governing treatment, protection, and inclusion of all citizens was born

on the backs of the brave seeking truth and justice. Those of you who were born after

this movement have benefited with a more educated view and have grown up with a

better awareness based on these laws having been implemented.

However, racism remains, and will, until humans develop a better understanding of

each other on all sides, historically, culturally, and socially.

Today, racism is not the soprano note in the song, it is not the melody, it's the bass

note, the low hum that doesn't take a break. It isn't overt, but it hasn't disappeared, -

it's still there.

Whether Duane Faust may or may not be worthy of defending, pilloried, or applauded

will be based on his ability to deliver this project to the city of Grand Rapids. There is

much speculation based on his experience, or lack thereof. The questions concerning

his business acumen raise more suspicions than give reassuring answers. This is valid.

But underneath it all, the low hum of racism contributes to the mix.

[Rizzo]

There's no such thing as race.

[twoshort]

Yes I do. My wife is African American. That does not make me an expert on African Americans but my awarness to racial conscerns has greatly increased. I see things now that I did not see in the past.

Besides....it seems that you have a radar that is out to detect others radars so that you can jam them? Is this the case?

No, I don't care if you discuss racial issues at all, I just think you should start a thread devoted to it. The topic of this thread is not whether or not Duane's race is a factor in his probability of success, nor is it about how much we have or have not progressed in the battle against racism since start of the civil rights movement.

The radar comment was just because we dont' hear from you for what seems like months and then all of the sudden you're posting every few minutes when the race issue comes up. It was a joke relating to how you spot these topics. I'm not jamming, I just want to keep the discussion on track.

[Rizzo]

Lets talk about Riverfront proposals and their implications on the economy, the city, the etc...

[twoshort]

Lets talk about Riverfront proposals and their implications on the economy, the city, the etc...

That's all I'm sayin.. thanks Rizzo.

[Rizzo]

Faust Plan: If the proposal keeps with the rumored "national signifcance" then I would assume there might be a swing in prospects for downtown housing space in the near future.

I don't know of any billion dollar investments in midsize cities that we can use as a model so predicting outcomes may be a little bit hard.

Spending hard costs on local talent would throw a lot of money into the local economy.

EDIT: I think we should discuss this over anything right now... Debating race is one of thoes futile situations.

[Prankster]

I don't know of any billion dollar investments in midsize cities that we can use as a model so predicting outcomes may be a little bit hard.

What is being proposed by the LDS church in Salt Lake City may be comparable, if/when they come out with their proposal. As of right now, it is being kept under wraps, for like the past 2 years.

[HolidayInnExpress]

No, I don't care if you discuss racial issues at all, I just think you should start a thread devoted to it. The topic of this thread is not whether or not Duane's race is a factor in his probability of success, nor is it about how much we have or have not progressed in the battle against racism since start of the civil rights movement.

The radar comment was just because we dont' hear from you for what seems like months and then all of the sudden you're posting every few minutes when the race issue comes up. It was a joke relating to how you spot these topics. I'm not jamming, I just want to keep the discussion on track.

Thats not true. I have posted in several threads making points on development matters that were ignored. When people respond to my commentary I simply respond back and when they don't I leave it at that.

Ok...I have said my two cents in regards to race and Faust. Lets move on....

[GRGyp]

Again, unless you can read peoples mind, 1- 4 are still uncertainties because what people say is no guarantee for what they actually believe or are being motivated by.

I can only go by what people say until their actions prove otherwise. As I said before, I'm not naive enough to say a race card isn't being played in this. I'm have having a tough time believing, however, that it's the leading culprit with the criticisms directed at Faust & Co. Given the sensitivity of the race card, I don't think it's correct to start throwing it out this early with the small amount of evidence being shown (leaked) to us through the media. I'm simply following the theory of Ockham's razor right now, and saying that the simplest explanation of the criticisms have more to do with his finances and lack of experience right now. If he can provide sufficient answers those questions and there is still criticism, then we need to start thinking about the race card being played upon him.

Two things I know are certainties, however. One: This nation has come a longs ways in race relations. Two: This nation has a long ways to go in relations. I think that sometimes the former prematurely convinces people that the latter is not true.

I agree completely with this statement. Call me a cynic in that don't think the race card will ever entirely disappear, but we still have work to do to continue to minimize it's effect and level the playing field.

In the end, I really hope the Faust plan is a success. The other two plans, in my mind, have the either the least to offer (Moch), or have even more concerns about financing and the ability to produce (Barnes/Stevens) than the Faust group has.

In the end, however, I think race is least of the prejudices Faust will have to overcome. If he can overcome being labelled as the inexperienced outsider, I think we will have a awesome new stepping stone for growth in this area.

Ok...I have said my two cents in regards to race and Faust. Lets move on....

(Caught this after posting and returning to the thread.)

I agree, the thread is heading down the rabbit hole. Time to move on and discuss on topic stuff related to the thread.

Show me the renderings!

[GRDadof3]

I think what all of us can do here (at least) is promise not to judge Faust's plan based on his race, but on the merits of his proposal. Just strike his race completely from our minds. And use the same measuring stick for each and every proposal, including background checks and tax records (not using information provided on a fancy website).

And if you overhear people in the community judging his merits or his project by his race, tell them how you feel about their racist remarks.

We should be doing that anyway.

Thanks for the debate.

I hear Faust may be in town as we speak.

[grrwymg]

I hear Faust may be in town as we speak.

You're worse than a 22 year-old girl wearing a tight-shirt to the bar!!! Tease!!!!

[Rizzo]

I think what all of us can do here (at least) is promise not to judge Faust's plan based on his race, but on the merits of his proposal. Just strike his race completely from our minds. And use the same measuring stick for each and every proposal, including background checks and tax records (not using information provided on a fancy website).

And if you overhear people in the community judging his merits or his project by his race, tell them how you feel about their racist remarks.

We should be doing that anyway.

Thanks for the debate.

I hear Faust may be in town as we speak.

I wonder if this is him prepn' for an anouncement on the local talent.

[PBJ]

I wonder if this is him prepn' for an anouncement on the local talent.

maybe even WITH the localtalent

[6th Gen local]

If this project finally does take off, what happens further West on Market and South on Godfrey? There is a building on the West side of Godfrey at Market with an interesting look at the corner and the Mcinerny spring and Wire facility may someday be reborn if this project really does happen.

Does anyone else see potential for growth West on Market and south on Godfrey?

[torgo]

WOOD says that on Wednesday:

"Duane Faust is expected to meet with city officials and introduce ten local companies that have agreed to work on the project."

[Kayak1]

The local talent have a meeting today. I believe they are meeting at the PR firm. Is Lambert and Edwards doing the PR?