Riverfront Property Proposal(s)?

[GaryP]

Maybe Duane's gonna build something that you'll love right here. And then you'll shop in Chicago a little less often.

The market wouldn't support it currently because it doesn't exist currently....if you follow that circuitous reasoning. Something this big really does turn into an "if you build it, they will come" scenario.

You may not buy that, but that's the reasoning behind it.

Now we know the local players, when do we get to find out who the tenants are?

[GRGyp]

Now with links to their homepage...

Consulting Architects/Designers

* Tower Pinkster Titus, Associates

* VIA Design

Planners

* RJM Design, Inc.

Contractors

* Dan Vos Construction

* Erhardt Construction

* Owen-Ames-Kimball (O-A-K Construction)

Parking

* Walker Parking Consultants

Civil Engineer

* Moore & Bruggink

Environmental

* King & MacGregor

Soils

* Materials Testing Consultants

Updated Owen-Ames-Kimball to the list

[Greedo]

I'm sure Duane's just snowed all these folks, too.

Yeah, he probably just showed them his RiverGrand letterhead and was like, "think about it... I DREW this myself. Billions of dollars. Just imagine the possibilities..."

/meeting

[Lplan]

"It does us no good to hide this somewhere and try to, in a sense, keep it a secret. This is something that's for Grand Rapids."

The GRPress article

[civitas]

Updated Owen-Ames-Kimball to the list

If he has anybody seriously commited he would be wise not to name them until after he controls the land. I wouldn't expect him to name names yet, but I would have hoped that he could have suggested that 40% of the space is spoken for (or some statement like that).

[Prankster]

"It does us no good to hide this somewhere and try to, in a sense, keep it a secret. This is something that's for Grand Rapids."

The GRPress article

ZING!!!!!!

[Rizzo]

Am I the only one that thinks this "speculation" could be correct. Show me the numbers, facts, and hard lines that say to the contrary that this market can't support this concept. I don't want speculation to denounce Fausts speculation. I still don't also understand why these companies would be hook, line and sinker.

[mgreven]

I hope the news stations now have new footage of Faust to show when they talk about this. My wife always jokes about the same footage of him walking to his desk they show OVER and OVER!

[Rizzo]

"Family oriented entertainment complex"

Telling: http://video.woodtv.com/?video_id=3152

[GRGyp]

Am I the only one that thinks this "speculation" could be correct. Show me the numbers, facts, and hard lines that say to the contrary that this market can't support this concept. I don't want speculation to denounce Fausts speculation. I still don't also understand why these companies would be hook, line and sinker.

Faust is saying that 9 million people live in a 60 mile strip from Grand Rapids to Detroit. I assume he is including the lakeshore in this number as well. All have to go to either Detroit or Chicago to get a "quality shopping/entertainment" experience. He also says over 50% of these people live closer to GR than Detroit or Chicago. The scary thing is, this was a very ambigous statement to be making.

From MSA data we can figure out how many of the people living closer to GR live in heavier populated metro areas.

2005 Census info

Grand Rapids/Wyoming MSA 771,185

Holland/Grand Haven MSA 255,406

Muskegon/Norton Shores MSA 175,554

Kalamazoo/Portage MSA 319,348

Battle Creek MSA 139,191

Lansing/East Lansing MSA 455,315

Niles/Benton Harbor MSA 162,611

Total 2,278,619

So that leaves, assuming Faust's numbers are correct, about 2.3+ million people living in areas like Clarksville, Sparta, Greenville, etc that are outside of an MSA in this area.

That's about an even split in population between large area/high density population centers and small area/medium density population areas. I would guess that that the demographics for what people consider a "quality shopping/entertainment" experience are going to vary quite a bit because of this in this area.

How similar are the shopping/entertainment expectations of the population in the outlying areas surround Grand Rapids, to the remaining 50% that live closer to Detroit? If Faust is making the assumption that the tastes and expections of the population are homogenous in that 60 mile band from Detroit to the lakeshore. Is that really the case?

That's the question some astute reporter needed to ask. Are you basing this project under the assumption that you have 4.5+ million potential customers similar to the customers closer to and surrounding Detroit and Chicago? If so, assuming that the more urban population would actually go for this, do you really think that the 2.3+ million people that live outside the larger MSA's in West Michigan are going to act like their counterparts near Detroit and Chicago and come to big city Grand Rapids for a bigtime "quality shopping/entertainment" experience? If not, how would only reaching 50% of the population you expected to reach effect this development?

[localtalent]

On another related topic, anyone know the typical timing of these sorts of city RFP processes? Didn't City Centre go through the same process? How long did that take?

Word is leaking out of certain local governmental offices that the "taskforce" won't even meet again until late July or early August. This after going weeks overdue on their replies to the initial letters of interest.

What motivation would the city have for delaying the whole process? Anyone who can provide an answer that's not ridiculous gets a cookie.

[Kayak1]

Word is that Tom Dowling hand picked the team. The companies did not approach Faust.

[GRGyp]

What motivation would the city have for delaying the whole process? Anyone who can provide an answer that's not ridiculous gets a cookie.

One possibility is that the subject matter is very sensationalized. Stringing the process out longer allows for the media hype to die down. Decision making can be more level headed, rather than a knee-jerk reaction to media induced public pressure.

[localtalent]

One possibility is that the subject matter is very sensationalized. Stringing the process out longer allows for the media hype to die down. Decision making can be more level headed, rather than a knee-jerk reaction to media induced public pressure.

So your contention is that it's the Geha's fault.

Interesting perspective.

I wouldn't have thought the city would give two rips about the media furor around the proposals. Especially since it has been focused on the developers rather than the city.

However, should they decide to try to run off certain developers through a series of calculated delays....that might draw some unpleasant media attention towards the city process, don't you think?

[GRGyp]

So your contention is that it's the Geha's fault.

Interesting perspective.

I wouldn't have thought the city would give two rips about the media furor around the proposals. Especially since it has been focused on the developers rather than the city.

However, should they decide to try to run off certain developers through a series of calculated delays....that might draw some unpleasant media attention towards the city process, don't you think?

Either that or fnord...fnord...fnord...

[Phizzy]

From MSA data we can figure out how many of the people living closer to GR live in heavier populated metro areas.

2005 Census info

Grand Rapids/Wyoming MSA 771,185

Holland/Grand Haven MSA 255,406

Muskegon/Norton Shores MSA 175,554

Kalamazoo/Portage MSA 319,348

Battle Creek MSA 139,191

Lansing/East Lansing MSA 455,315

Niles/Benton Harbor MSA 162,611

Total 2,278,619

So that leaves, assuming Faust's numbers are correct, about 2.3+ million people living in areas like Clarksville, Sparta, Greenville, etc that are outside of an MSA in this area.

Not to nitpick, but "downtown" Sparta is just 15 miles from downtown Grand Rapids, located within Kent County, and firmly with the Grand Rapids-Wyoming MSA. So is Clarksville.

[GRGyp]

Not to nitpick, but "downtown" Sparta is just 15 miles from downtown Grand Rapids, located within Kent County, and firmly with the Grand Rapids-Wyoming MSA. So is Clarksville.

I was generalizing, since I don't know the areas each MSA incorporates. Not so much saying that Sparta is outside an MSA, as indicating that there areas similar to Sparta that lie outside of MSAs. Only half of the population Faust is targetting for this development lies in the more urban MSAs. Where is the other half of the population that Faust is targetting for this development? It has to be spread out in little towns, and parts of counties not included in an MSA. Does their demographic travel to Chicago and Detroit often to shop and be entertained?

[GRDadof3]

I think Faust is just saying what we all know (should know) about Michigan, and what maps like this represent: most of Michigan's population lives in the Southern Lower Peninsula:

http://www.neiu.edu/~tpastaj%20/Color%20As...ent%20%233C.jpg

And to get a true "Urban Entertainment Experience", you have to go to Chicago and/or Detroit (to a lesser extent).

[gvsusean]

On another related topic, anyone know the typical timing of these sorts of city RFP processes? Didn't City Centre go through the same process? How long did that take?

Word is leaking out of certain local governmental offices that the "taskforce" won't even meet again until late July or early August. This after going weeks overdue on their replies to the initial letters of interest.

What motivation would the city have for delaying the whole process? Anyone who can provide an answer that's not ridiculous gets a cookie.

the reason is you are not a local developer... your not van andel, your not devos, and im pretty sure your not Fred Meijer, so the board is all nervous and iffy..... nobody has ever brought 2.5 billion dollars into GR, combine the vanandels Devoses and Meijers then maybe.

[localtalent]

the reason is you are not a local developer... your not van andel, your not devos, and im pretty sure your not Fred Meijer, so the board is all nervous and iffy..... nobody has ever brought 2.5 billion dollars into GR, combine the vanandels Devoses and Meijers then maybe.

That's the easy and obvious answer, but it still doesn't satisfy me.

If the city gets a price for their land that's well above market (no pun intended) and a developer that's willing to take on nearly all the risk associated with the project, what's the motivation on the city side to delay and chase that developer away?

[gvsusean]

That's the easy and obvious answer, but it still doesn't satisfy me.

If the city gets a price for their land that's well above market (no pun intended) and a developer that's willing to take on nearly all the risk associated with the project, what's the motivation on the city side to delay and chase that developer away?

my answer may be obvious, but as much as I hate to say it, I dont think they like Daune or river grand... For no reason I am sure, but its kinda like Jack BBV and his hotel oon calder plaza, they def, have favorites and you best be one.

[localtalent]

my answer may be obvious, but as much as I hate to say it, I dont think they like Daune or river grand... For no reason I am sure, but its kinda like Jack BBV and his hotel oon calder plaza, they def, have favorites and you best be one.

They weren't just playing favorites against Jack. And you may have hit on the deeper issue behind this....you're getting dangerously close to earning a cookie.

[GaryP]

They weren't just playing favorites against Jack. And you may have hit on the deeper issue behind this....you're getting dangerously close to earning a cookie.

Its because they really want to keep Mark London isn't it?

[gvsusean]

They weren't just playing favorites against Jack. And you may have hit on the deeper issue behind this....you're getting dangerously close to earning a cookie.

could the "IN" crowd be delaying this???

[GRDadof3]

I thought the next round of meetings or due dates was June 21st?