Riverfront Property Proposal(s)?

[torgo]

I dont think anyone knows. Sounds like all they really got was poeple sayin "I'm gonna build this big cool thing", ignoring the feasibility aspect of it.

[GaryP]

Committee members also greeted plans for a $150 performing arts center from Moch International LLC with skepticism. A center of that size should be larger than two Van Andel Arenas, DeVries said.

I'm also a little skeptical about a $150 performing arts center.

http://www.mlive.com/newslogs/grpress/inde..._05.html#144738

[GRGyp]

Committee members also greeted plans for a $150 performing arts center from Moch International LLC with skepticism. A center of that size should be larger than two Van Andel Arenas, DeVries said.

I'm also a little skeptical about a $150 performing arts center.

http://www.mlive.com/newslogs/grpress/inde..._05.html#144738

That means the arena cost $75! So that's why they named it after a Dutchman...

[Phizzy]

"Faust's plans would generate 10 million to 20 million square feet of office..."

I didn't see this in Faust's letter of interest. Where'd they get those numbers?

[civitas]

"Faust's plans would generate 10 million to 20 million square feet of office..."

I didn't see this in Faust's letter of interest. Where'd they get those numbers?

$1.5 billion at $100 / SF

[joeDowntown]

You know, I just don't care about this project. It's weird, but I could care less if some developer tries to come in and build a Mega-opolis from scratch.

I like the organic growth that Grand Rapids is going through. Screw the pie-in-the-sky proposals. I have enough *REAL* development to keep my mind occupied.

Joe

[civitas]

hmmmmm.....

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=4936357

This was approved a couple of days ago in Preston, CT. It sounds very familiar. It is huge, has been going on for years, and still hasn't happened. Studios too.

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/gbase/News...?oid=oid:155004

"According to its organizers, the $1.3 billion Utopia Studios in Preston will not only be a full production studio with facilities for all aspects of motion picture production, but it will also be a sprawling tourist attraction.

[snoogit]

That means the arena cost $75! So that's why they named it after a Dutchman...

In 1998 the arena cost $60 Million, today if it were built it would cost $75 Million. So yeah it should be about two VAAs VAA COULD be converted to a big PAC (Shoot all you'd really have to do is install a permanent stage at the blank end, and some gallery-style seats in the arena area.), and someone could come in a build a big NBA/NHL size arena in the dream development and GR would be all set

but thats dreamin'

[GRDadof3]

You know, I just don't care about this project. It's weird, but I could care less if some developer tries to come in and build a Mega-opolis from scratch.

I like the organic growth that Grand Rapids is going through. Screw the pie-in-the-sky proposals. I have enough *REAL* development to keep my mind occupied.

Joe

I'm with you Joe. And the panelists may be thinking the same:

"Personally, I wasn't thrilled with any of them" - Architect Samuel Ojo

"If he has some major tenant that we just don't know about, that he has in his back pocket, that's a little different," says task force member Michael DeVries.

"I asked him that question. He doesn't," was the answer from City Attorney Richard Wendt.

civitas: That Utopia project is eerily similar.

[Rizzo]

"If he has some major tenant that we just don't know about, that he has in his back pocket, that's a little different," says task force member Michael DeVries.

"I asked him that question. He doesn't," was the answer from City Attorney Richard Wendt.

Yah this thing will draw to a close quite quickly now that's out of the bag.

[CK1]

You know, I just don't care about this project. It's weird, but I could care less if some developer tries to come in and build a Mega-opolis from scratch.

With only three proposals submitted, and none of them apparently blowing anyone away, what are the odds that the city simply walks away from all three of them and goes back to the drawing board to rethink how they want this area of town redeveloped, or at least change the requirements for redevelopment to make it more appealing to a wider range of investores/developers?

[localtalent]

With only three proposals submitted, and none of them apparently blowing anyone away, what are the odds that the city simply walks away from all three of them and goes back to the drawing board to rethink how they want this area of town redeveloped, or at least change the requirements for redevelopment to make it more appealing to a wider range of investores/developers?

How egotistical and short-sighted of us....and the city....to think that we could toss a chunk of property out there, wait for the world to beat down our door, and then deem the proposals unworthy even of consideration.

This is a process that normally takes years. In the case of the Faust group, they've been working this for years. Now they finally get the city to play ball, after getting burned the first time, and the home team decides to play by another different set of rules. And yet still, these people want to try to put $2 billion of investment into this city. It really amazes me. They must be gluttons for punishment.

But for some reason, all you Monday morning quarterbacks and critics are concerned that the proposals demanded by the city on ridiculously short notice for a ridiculously overpriced piece of land aren't up to your high standards (or the high standards of development in our fair city).

How dare we turn our noses at someone who's come into our city willing to risk a lot of cash and opportunity cost to significantly improve its' business climate and livability?

Not excited by it? Fine, fair enough. Sit back and wait for the show to end. But these attacks on the viability of a project NO ONE has seen details of is sophomoric and inane.

Please understand that this is entirely my personal opinion.

[civitas]

civitas: That Utopia project is eerily similar.

Here's another the same guy is working on...

"The studios would be used for feature films, commercials, television shows, music recordings and music videos. Gentile said he has 41 parties, some of them "household names," already interested in the 25 lots."

http://www.studiorecordingengineer.com/art...-print-404.html

With retail projects developers will learn that a retailer is interested in an area and will rush to accommodate that need. Like with Cabela's in Walker/Muskegon, sometimes developers compete with each other. The first developer with a "hard" deal wins.

It is possibly that the recording industry has determined a desire to concentrate facilities and a few developers are trying to accommodate that desire. If they are chasing the same market, the Conn. developer appears to be much more qualified to deliver the product.

[GRDadof3]

How egotistical and short-sighted of us....and the city....to think that we could toss a chunk of property out there, wait for the world to beat down our door, and then deem the proposals unworthy even of consideration.

This is a process that normally takes years. In the case of the Faust group, they've been working this for years. Now they finally get the city to play ball, after getting burned the first time, and the home team decides to play by another different set of rules. And yet still, these people want to try to put $2 billion of investment into this city. It really amazes me. They must be gluttons for punishment.

But for some reason, all you Monday morning quarterbacks and critics are concerned that the proposals demanded by the city on ridiculously short notice for a ridiculously overpriced piece of land aren't up to your high standards (or the high standards of development in our fair city).

How dare we turn our noses at someone who's come into our city willing to risk a lot of cash and opportunity cost to significantly improve its' business climate and livability?

Not excited by it? Fine, fair enough. Sit back and wait for the show to end. But these attacks on the viability of a project NO ONE has seen details of is sophomoric and inane.

Please understand that this is entirely my personal opinion.

I've been trying to be optimistic and open-minded regarding Faust's plans, but even I feel like I'm being asked to extend A LOT of faith localtalent.

Do you think this might be the same group civitas? And if it were getting so close to closure in Connecticutt, why would the Atlanta law firm still be involved with Faust's version, I wonder.

If I were advising the city, I'd tell them to put the whole property on the market/MLS in chunks, with the ability of someone to buy 1/3, 2/3's or the whole thing. It might take a few years, but it might also give it some more time to be exposed to a wider audience. They don't HAVE to move the city service buildings.

[gvsusean]

How egotistical and short-sighted of us....and the city....to think that we could toss a chunk of property out there, wait for the world to beat down our door, and then deem the proposals unworthy even of consideration.

This is a process that normally takes years. In the case of the Faust group, they've been working this for years. Now they finally get the city to play ball, after getting burned the first time, and the home team decides to play by another different set of rules. And yet still, these people want to try to put $2 billion of investment into this city. It really amazes me. They must be gluttons for punishment.

But for some reason, all you Monday morning quarterbacks and critics are concerned that the proposals demanded by the city on ridiculously short notice for a ridiculously overpriced piece of land aren't up to your high standards (or the high standards of development in our fair city).

How dare we turn our noses at someone who's come into our city willing to risk a lot of cash and opportunity cost to significantly improve its' business climate and livability?

Not excited by it? Fine, fair enough. Sit back and wait for the show to end. But these attacks on the viability of a project NO ONE has seen details of is sophomoric and inane.

Please understand that this is entirely my personal opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly...... These people have visions for land, that b4 all this hobub started, most people thought little if anything at all of....

[GRCentro]

localtalent, didn't you say earlier that you knew, not thought, that the mystery development was nothing but hot air?

[gvsusean]

localtalent, didn't you say earlier that you knew, not thought, that the mystery development was nothing but hot air?

this is true....

[civitas]

Do you think this might be the same group civitas? And if it were getting so close to closure in Connecticutt, why would the Atlanta law firm still be involved with Faust's version, I wonder.

Probably not the same development group, but I wouldn't be surprized to learn that they're both attempting to serve the same market.

Back in the 70's the city floated a proposal for the revitalization of Monroe Center. As I recall, the land was the old dime store area - generally where the Big "O" is located now. This was before the Paul Friedberg pedestrian mall was built. The biggest and most promising proposal was from James Rouse (Columbia, Reston Town Center, etc.). Rouse had been developing large urban projects that he called festive marketplaces. He was the best in the world at such developments and was more than able and willing to build one in GR. I can't remember why, but the city opted to reject his proposal and the idea died. GR built the pedestrian mall in the late 70's and it has taken the next 25 years to see reasonable vitality in the downtown area. I would hate for the city to loose a big opportunity again.

However, The Rouse Corporation was a huge corporation with significant history with similar projects. The GR proposals are from no-names with no experience. If the city sells the land to a buyer who fails, they will have forever lost control of the property. They must be very, very careful.

I have been cheerleading for downtown Grand Rapids since I moved my office here in 1979, but I remain very skepical about the 3 proposals. I've been assured by insiders that Faust is very real, but they better prove it pretty quick or the city may mothball the whole idea.

[Phizzy]

Regarding the Utopia project in Connecticut - the developers claim that the themepark portion of Utopia will outdraw Disney World in Orlando 200 days of the year. Does that seem a little pie-in-the-sky?

[localtalent]

localtalent, didn't you say earlier that you knew, not thought, that the mystery development was nothing but hot air?

No. You may have misinterpreted something I was saying.

For a while, I was actively trying to lower expectations, as some on here had turned it into a combination Google headquarters and Universal Studios theme park. The speculation was a bit far-fetched.

[joeDowntown]

You're meshing your criticisms. I said I didn't care. I don't try to speak to the viability of a project (not my expertise) but the fact of the matter is, when you ask yourself them simple questions, it doesn't add up. Without specific names lined up (he doesn't have to reveal them, but a simple "Yes, I do have tenants" would do), this thing will be fighting a serious up-hill battle.

$2 million dollar projects fail because of a lack of users, how would a $2 billion dollar project be any different?

I stopped speculating long ago about the Mystery Development. I guess I will continue to do so.

Joe

Not excited by it? Fine, fair enough. Sit back and wait for the show to end. But these attacks on the viability of a project NO ONE has seen details of is sophomoric and inane.

Please understand that this is entirely my personal opinion.

[civitas]

No. You may have misinterpreted something I was saying.

For a while, I was actively trying to lower expectations, as some on here had turned it into a combination Google headquarters and Universal Studios theme park. The speculation was a bit far-fetched.

I think what is generally agreed on is that anything that isn't a brand new imported market (like Google or a theme park) is far fetched. No one can invest $1 or 2 billion in GR on speculative buildings that are intended to serve any local market.

If anyone says a billion dollars they have to also say far fetched because, with all due respect for the vitality in downtown GR, there's nothing here that justifies that much investment.

[GRDadof3]

I think what is generally agreed on is that anything that isn't a brand new imported market (like Google or a theme park) is far fetched. No one can invest $1 or 2 billion in GR on speculative buildings that are intended to serve any local market.

If anyone says a billion dollars they have to also say far fetched because, with all due respect for the vitality in downtown GR, there's nothing here that justifies that much investment.

And in defense of our fair city, the only place I know of where they're speculatively building $1 - $2 Billion developments is Dubai and cities in China. Both of which we are not.

Faust admitted to City Attorney Wendt that he does not have a large tenant lined up.

[CK1]

I think what is generally agreed on is that anything that isn't a brand new imported market (like Google or a theme park) is far fetched. No one can invest $1 or 2 billion in GR on speculative buildings that are intended to serve any local market.

If anyone says a billion dollars they have to also say far fetched because, with all due respect for the vitality in downtown GR, there's nothing here that justifies that much investment.

Is it possible that GR is just not at the point where a project of this magnitude even makes sense? There is a LOT of development going on downtown and around the city right now, both currently being constructed and being planning.

If proposals for the riverfront property aren't what was envisioned by the city, would it be more prudent to digest what's already on our plate versus forcing more food into our mouth? Just an observation that I am sure is an option city officials have always thought about...

[GRGyp]

How egotistical and short-sighted of us....and the city....to think that we could toss a chunk of property out there, wait for the world to beat down our door, and then deem the proposals unworthy even of consideration.

This is a process that normally takes years. In the case of the Faust group, they've been working this for years. Now they finally get the city to play ball, after getting burned the first time, and the home team decides to play by another different set of rules.

But for some reason, all you Monday morning quarterbacks and critics are concerned that the proposals demanded by the city on ridiculously short notice for a ridiculously overpriced piece of land aren't up to your high standards (or the high standards of development in our fair city).

How dare we turn our noses at someone who's come into our city willing to risk a lot of cash and opportunity cost to significantly improve its' business climate and livability?

Not excited by it? Fine, fair enough. Sit back and wait for the show to end. But these attacks on the viability of a project NO ONE has seen details of is sophomoric and inane.

Please understand that this is entirely my personal opinion.

I seem to remember reading that the city did not promise that this land was going to be sold just because they sent out requests for proposals. The main plan was to gauge the market for what that piece of property is, what it could be used for, and what it could sell for. During that process if a plan came forward that was promising enough they'd sell. If not, they'd wait another 5 to 10 years and put it on the block again.

By stating that the "home team" has decided "to play by a different set of rules", you seem to be implying that this was not the case and Faust was promised something more than just being allowed to present his plan and be given the opportunity to win the city over into accepting it. Is there something you know that the rest of us don't?

I also don't think it's egotistical or short-sighted to be critical of these opening proposals. We are talking about a large chunk of land near the heart of the city. If a proposal is chosen in haste and then fails because people weren't critical enough, downtown GR could easily end up like downtown Detroit with loads of empty high rise buildings being left set to rot on their foundations.

A good developer that can do this job isn't going to be ruffled by the opening comments of a committee that wants to see more and expresses concerns about potential flaws that they see. If anything a good developer is going to welcome such a thing because they now know what they have to do to win the job. In Faust's case, show that this development is not as far-fetched as some may think. Show that he has the backing and team that can pull this off. Show that businesses want to move into GR, that are only looking for the right place to do so, and that the RiverGrand plan is the way to do it.

If this group wasn't critical, I'd be worried. That they are critical is a good sign. If Faust, Moch, or Barnes/Stevens have a plan that withers just because someone says they are "underwelmed" or "need to see more", they don't have much of a plan with which to begin. They said they were "underwelmed", if the plan is good the developer should already have the answer to all the criticisms and be able to overwelm the committee in the end.

The old saying says: "It takes pressure to make a diamond". It's unfortunate the news got ahold of this story early because it certainly added the even harsher light of the public eye onto anything a developer is proposing. Does it make the job harder? Yes. Is it unfair to the developer? Probably. But if the project can stand the pressure now and still get built, it should be something truly special.