Riverfront Property Proposal(s)?

[Greedo]

Just by looking at these proposals, they are some of the most unprofessionally produced business documents I've ever seen.

Moch's TV interviews were weak and did not convey any confidence, but

Faust's is the worst. Who scribbles a flippin' logo and then uses one of the 12 fonts from Word? Maybe it's just me, but presentation speaks almost as loudly as the content.

"How dare we turn our noses"? I'll welcome anyone with a real plan, but don't give us grief for defending our city from unprofessional carpetbaggers looking to make a quick buck on who they probably perceive as naive Midwesterners.

Duane Faust is nothing more than a 21st century Henry Hill.

[DwntwnGeo]

This place cracks me up at times... One day is positive, the next day is negative.

This is a start of a long drawn out process. The proposals that were submitted were only an overview of their visions for the area. I say give them all the chance to go to the next phase so that we they review more of their plans, including time lines and financials etc. Even if we ask them to proceed it doesn

[civitas]

...Is it unfair to the developer? Probably.

Public scrutiny may be unfortunate for a developer from a number of perspectives, but it is not unfair. That is especially true when public property or money is involved or when a development's success or failure has the potential for a major impact on others. All are true in this case.

In defense of the three groups, a developer never wants to expose his brilliant idea before he has control of the property. Once the idea is made public, others may steal the idea or offer more for the property. This is a very awkward dance between the buyer and the seller and it is complicated by the fact that it is a public process. The city can negotiate to buy property in closed meetings. They cannot, however, close meetings to negotiate the sale of public property (although there will likely be closed meetings for "legal opinions" from time to time).

The developers, if they really have a plan, will resist all efforts to publically expose that plan without a commitment that the city will actually sell them the land. On the other hand, the city will want to see as much as possible to be assured that they are selling to the "right" developer. The dance has begun.

[GRGyp]

Public scrutiny may be unfortunate for a developer from a number of perspectives, but it is not unfair.

Public disclosure has to happen at some point, and under normal circumstances would have occurred for Faust's group on the 22nd. The disclosure isn't what I was saying was unfair, it was the earlier disclosure and subsequent sensationalization by the media that was commenting on. It's probably unfair to the developer to have to endure all the hype and speculation the news media created during a time period that the developer wasn't going to be able to openly discuss the project for the reasons you just listed.

In the end, however, if the developer has planned properly and the project is solid, it still should go through once it's reached this stage.

[localtalent]

By stating that the "home team" has decided "to play by a different set of rules", you seem to be implying that this was not the case and Faust was promised something more than just being allowed to present his plan and be given the opportunity to win the city over into accepting it. Is there something you know that the rest of us don't?

Yes, I guess. Though some here may know more of the history of this project than they let on.

I wasn't referring to the current process being switched mid-stream.

[FlawlessDeveloper]

After reading all the different proposals, I feel like I am qualified to do better than those 3!!!

I am a dirt broker, I don't build anything. I rezone the dirt and sell the new dirt. If I rezoned those 30 acres for something attractive I'd have bidders from all across these fruited planes trying to jump in. The problem is not in the financing, the problem has been the reluctance of West Michigan to allow outsiders to help determine its future.

have it zoned for entertainment until 5:00 am it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for riverfront residential. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for high end retail. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for office. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for all of those, and sweep it down. any developer would have a home run!

I was just told infomally this weekend. I could get $500 Million for something like that.

I'd like to see Mr. Faust get it, because I have a GOOD idea, how it would play out!

[GRGyp]

After reading all the different proposals, I feel like I am qualified to do better than those 3!!!

I am a dirt broker, I don't build anything. I rezone the dirt and sell the new dirt. If I rezoned those 30 acres for something attractive I'd have bidders from all across these fruited planes trying to jump in. The problem is not in the financing, the problem has been the reluctance of West Michigan to allow outsiders to help determine its future.

have it zoned for entertainment until 5:00 am it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for riverfront residential. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for high end retail. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for office. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for all of those, and sweep it down. any developer would have a home run!

I was just told infomally this weekend. I could get $500 Million for something like that.

I'd like to see Mr. Faust get it, because I have a GOOD idea, how it would play out!

Judging by the RiverGrand feasibility study that leaked out from Faust and Co. a month back, I think that's what they plan to do. Buy the land and rezone it from industrial to residential/commercial. The land value then rises allowing you to leverage more capital to build on the site.

-or-

You can buy the land, get it rezoned, sell it piece meal at a inflated mark up to other developers and run off smiling all the way to the bank.

The latter option is American capitalism at it's "best". The danger, however, is that you get sold on a grand vision, the land sells piece meal to developers that don't share the vision, and nothing happens...

[Rizzo]

Why is 201 Market up for sale, what is the original motivator?

[civitas]

After reading all the different proposals, I feel like I am qualified to do better than those 3!!!

I am a dirt broker, I don't build anything. I rezone the dirt and sell the new dirt. If I rezoned those 30 acres for something attractive I'd have bidders from all across these fruited planes trying to jump in. The problem is not in the financing, the problem has been the reluctance of West Michigan to allow outsiders to help determine its future.

have it zoned for entertainment until 5:00 am it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for riverfront residential. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for high end retail. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for office. it'd be attractive to other builder/developers.

have it zoned for all of those, and sweep it down. any developer would have a home run!

I was just told infomally this weekend. I could get $500 Million for something like that.

I'd like to see Mr. Faust get it, because I have a GOOD idea, how it would play out!

The city would be happy to rezone the land for any of those uses. If you are a land speculator, you also know that the marketablity of your "new dirt" is subject the marketability of the ultimate use. Given the local market for office, retail and residential and the existing or proposed building inventory in each of those markets, which would you invest in?

"Show us the money" isn't necessary here. Show us the market. If there is a market, the money is the easy part. If there isn't a market, I would caution anyone not to invest $35,000,000 in a site that they will carry (taxes, insurance, interest, etc.) for a very long time.

[GRDadof3]

The latter option is American capitalism at it's "best". The danger, however, is that you get sold on a grand vision, the land sells piece meal to developers that don't share the vision, and nothing happens...

Celebration Village happens....

No offense flawlessdeveloper, but your flaws are showing. Something like that carries a great amount of risk, and someone saying that you could make $500 Million informally becomes quite different if that same person were asked to personally guarantee it. If it's that great of a deal, why didn't they submit a proposal? Or why didn't half of Grand Rapids? They all saw the shell game/rezoning tactic in the draft Faust proposal.

[quoteme3]

Why is 201 Market up for sale, what is the original motivator?

I'd say that is a very good question..... better question is WHEN. Answer that and you might know the motivator.

I know its not apples to apples, but didnt the city once get burned trying to will development downtown

in the old Herps building?

[FlawlessDeveloper]

Celebration Village happens....

No offense flawlessdeveloper, but your flaws are showing. Something like that carries a great amount of risk, and someone saying that you could make $500 Million informally becomes quite different if that same person were asked to personally guarantee it. If it's that great of a deal, why didn't they submit a proposal? Or why didn't half of Grand Rapids? They all saw the shell game/rezoning tactic in the draft Faust proposal.

Not saying that I would do it. There are indeed several market studies that would have to be done. the $500M is only what people think I am worth investing in, not what I think I could earn, (time value of money and all) but I would still have to submit a package to prove it to them. And like many developers in the region, I don't think I could do it. I'll stick with Nascar Tracks and hotels for a while. But that is the first stage of development. Rezoning.

[FlawlessDeveloper]

Judging by the RiverGrand feasibility study that leaked out from Faust and Co. a month back, I think that's what they plan to do. Buy the land and rezone it from industrial to residential/commercial. The land value then rises allowing you to leverage more capital to build on the site.

-or-

You can buy the land, get it rezoned, sell it piece meal at a inflated mark up to other developers and run off smiling all the way to the bank.

The latter option is American capitalism at it's "best". The danger, however, is that you get sold on a grand vision, the land sells piece meal to developers that don't share the vision, and nothing happens...

You are right. But that is the limit of my expertise. there are rezoning specialists at the first level. (Dirt Brokers) Construction guys (build and sell ) and Real Estate investors (those who build, hold and rent) (Trump, Evergreen Properties) as U get higher up the scale your risks increase because the capital investment gets higher.

[FlawlessDeveloper]

Doesn't the City of GR know that when you put out an RFP (request for proposal), that interested parties will respond within the guide lines? in your proposal you outline exactly what you are going to put together. it includes financials, pro-formas, timelines etc. But when you ask for an LOI (letter of intent or interest) It is going to be vague?

If the city wanted more meat, they should have dropped the LOI altogether, and asked for the final submission. My LOI's are generally "lame". They begin with a very simple offer/acceptance "subject to" type of stuff.

[torgo]

Is the city required by law to ask for letters of interest first? just asking

[FlawlessDeveloper]

Is the city required by law to ask for letters of interest first? just asking

If so...then it would be the first I've heard of it.

[civitas]

Is the city required by law to ask for letters of interest first? just asking

The typical process on a complex issue is to first ask for a statement of interest and qualifications (usually called an RFQ-Request for Qualifications).

After short listings the capable and interested parties, the next step is a Request for Proposals (RFP) sent only to those on the short list. The RFP asks for much more detail than the RFQ.

[terra firma]

Is the city required by law to ask for letters of interest first? just asking

Nope. But, if they go to an RFP process (which is the next step) then they have established guidelines and timeframes they must follow ie: less flexibility.

My understanding is that if they fell in love with a particular LOI from one of the submittals, they could select it without going through all the RFP criteria.

Could be wrong but I think that's the deal.

[civitas]

Nope. But, if they go to an RFP process (which is the next step) then they have established guidelines and timeframes they must follow ie: less flexibility.

My understanding is that if they fell in love with a particular LOI from one of the submittals, they could select it without going through all the RFP criteria.

Could be wrong but I think that's the deal.

Do they have to take bids to sell public property?

Can they sell at less than appraised value?

[GRDadof3]

City Committe a huge disappointment

I'm glad the Business Journal said this first and not me. What IS up with this committee? Along with the Journal's scathing editorial, here's a couple of quotes from this Ojo guy on the committee (anyone ever heard of him?):

"He said the riverfront project should be more like Baltimore Harbor or Navy Pier". Does Ojo realize a project the size of Navy Pier would stretch from the island to John Ball Park?

"We have enough hotels". Is he a hotel expert? What about by 2010?

"People in Grand Rapids don't rent that much"

And half the committee did not show up for the first meeting. Eric must have taken them ALL golfing?

[mgreven]

City Committe a huge disappointment

I'm glad the Business Journal said this first and not me. What IS up with this committee? Along with the Journal's scathing editorial, here's a couple of quotes from this Ojo guy on the committee (anyone ever heard of him?):

"He said the riverfront project should be more like Baltimore Harbor or Navy Pier". Does Ojo realize a project the size of Navy Pier would stretch from the island to John Ball Park?

"We have enough hotels". Is he a hotel expert? What about by 2010?

"People in Grand Rapids don't rent that much"

And half the committee did not show up for the first meeting. Eric must have taken them ALL golfing?

I thought the same thing, what dumb quotes....we have enough hotels? Why did we appoint a committee who isn't excited or doesn't think big? Are they the "throw cold water on those wanting to invest in our community" committee?

[snoogit]

City Committe a huge disappointment

I'm glad the Business Journal said this first and not me. What IS up with this committee? Along with the Journal's scathing editorial, here's a couple of quotes from this Ojo guy on the committee (anyone ever heard of him?):

"He said the riverfront project should be more like Baltimore Harbor or Navy Pier". Does Ojo realize a project the size of Navy Pier would stretch from the island to John Ball Park?

"We have enough hotels". Is he a hotel expert? What about by 2010?

"People in Grand Rapids don't rent that much"

And half the committee did not show up for the first meeting. Eric must have taken them ALL golfing?

Sheesh you'd think this committee was made up of residents from the suburbs...

oh wait...

[MJLO]

Bah, do you guys think anything will come of this? Sounds like this committee is a sit and spin kind of deal.

[torgo]

I think they should call a few UPers. We'll show them how to do things!

[Rizzo]

Wow, what a suprise... I like the Ojo guy, he's a great character. I thought the River Grand develop ment was supposed to have an inner harbour design.