Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[pdxheel]

As far as tall buildings outside of downtown goes, that's everywhere. The King and Queen buildings in Atlanta are fantastic looking takes on 80's glass highrises and give that area of the monotonous suburbs some character. Like someont above said: some of y'all complained about the condo/hotel tower being a big solitary thumb. Now it wont be. Maybe the guys up the hill will quit building 3-5 story buildings and go up, putting in a livable town.

I guess I have a different perspective because I'm not originally from the Triangle or the South. Having grown up in Portland and lived in Seattle it is very unusual for tall buildings to be built outside of DT (the Durham Pickle is a prime example). The cities I'm used to are much more dense and focused around the CBD. I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people in Raleigh, and the Triangle in general, would not settle for any type of development or tall building but seriously consider the LT ramifications of having DT type developments outside of DT. Portland and Seattle have been very successful at encouraging private developers to use private money to build DT. There is no reason Raleigh, with a little more leadership, cannot do the same. The City is just giving in because they think a 42 story building is good, no matter where it is. That is not progressive thinking.

[jlblaes]

I guess I have a different perspective because I'm not originally from the Triangle or the South. Having grown up in Portland and lived in Seattle it is very unusual for tall buildings to be built outside of DT (the Durham Pickle is a prime example). The cities I'm used to are much more dense and focused around the CBD. I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people in Raleigh, and the Triangle in general, would not settle for any type of development or tall building but seriously consider the LT ramifications of having DT type developments outside of DT. Portland and Seattle have been very successful at encouraging private developers to use private money to build DT. There is no reason Raleigh, with a little more leadership, cannot do the same. The City is just giving in because they think a 42 story building is good, no matter where it is. That is not progressive thinking.

It took $20M to get a convention center hotel downtown.

JB

[jlblaes]

I guess I have a different perspective because I'm not originally from the Triangle or the South. Having grown up in Portland and lived in Seattle it is very unusual for tall buildings to be built outside of DT (the Durham Pickle is a prime example). The cities I'm used to are much more dense and focused around the CBD. I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people in Raleigh, and the Triangle in general, would not settle for any type of development or tall building but seriously consider the LT ramifications of having DT type developments outside of DT. Portland and Seattle have been very successful at encouraging private developers to use private money to build DT. There is no reason Raleigh, with a little more leadership, cannot do the same. The City is just giving in because they think a 42 story building is good, no matter where it is. That is not progressive thinking.

One other thing to consider is that the complex geopgraphy (eater bodies & terrain) discourage the sprawling development we see here.

JB

[pdxheel]

It took $20M to get a convention center hotel downtown.

JB

That is usually the case during the beginnings of a DT's revitalization. From my experience, 5 years from now developers like the one for Soliel will be willing to build DT without tons of public funds. My point is we shouldn't just approve any development..sometimes it is better to wait a couple of years.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I guess the critical question here is: Are downtown and Crabtree in the same "market"? There are plenty of companies who seek office space "anywhere but downtown". So in that case, they go out to Six Forks and Strickland, or a 540 intersection and build build build. If there were a 20% occupancy rate downtown these companies still wouldn't consider being downtown. So in this case, I agree with Raleighsfinest (for once ) Also, for years the most expensive class A office space has been anything-close-to-Glenwood/440. I imagine demand is still high in that area. This bodes well for the mall, btw (different topic, I know)

On the other hand, we definitely don't want to over build like it appears that we did in 1990. For years the two 29-story buildings had too much empty space. But! Things are definitely different with downtown, the market, and the leadership than they were in 1988. DT has WAY more momentum with the influx of restaurants and residential.

As far as tall buildings outside of downtown goes, that's everywhere. The King and Queen buildings in Atlanta are fantastic looking takes on 80's glass highrises and give that area of the monotonous suburbs some character. Like someont above said: some of y'all complained about the condo/hotel tower being a big solitary thumb. Now it wont be. Maybe the guys up the hill will quit building 3-5 story buildings and go up, putting in a livable town.

I think it is time to revisit the Glenwood/440 interchange and explore branching off across from the Ridge Rd. area.

I totally agree with the above comments. If this is to hurt any place in the triangle, it would hurt the office development on 6-Forks road near the Forum or in Cary/North Raleigh. I don't see this as a competitor of DT to any great degree. Just as I don't see the condos in the first building as a competitor to DT. Certain businesses and people will not buy or live or work DT. No way around that. And trying to drive them to move DT, you might as well pay an incentive package to set them up in Richmond or Charlotte because that is where the jobs will go, especially with Class A office space.

Plus, how is the Triangle to grow when no large office space is opened? Plus, I would not underestimate the Triangle market. Where do all these people who live here work?

Again, just my humble opinion.

[jlblaes]

That is usually the case during the beginnings of a DT's revitalization. From my experience, 5 years from now developers like the one for Soliel will be willing to build DT without tons of public funds. My point is we shouldn't just approve any development..sometimes it is better to wait a couple of years.

This pains me to sound like this since it is adverse to most of my political beliefs but the property owners want to invest a lot of cash in a property and their investment is consistent with the Raleigh comprehensive plan and the local neighborhood plan, the city shouldn't block it just because they would rather it be downtown.

Sure I'd rather it go downtown and I rather Raleigh's skyline look like NY but these guys want to invest a lot in the city, lets work with them.

JB

[Transplant]

30 years from now, I can foresee Raleigh looking completely different than it is now. By then, what we consider DT will be built out, and the new understanding of DT will expand east and south. In places like Crabree, North Hills, Cameron Village, Brier Creek, and other shopping areas, density will replace the shopping sprawl that is there now.

Hopefully we'll have a mass transit system to facilitate easy access. The Soleil Center(s) are just the begining. Density doesn't have to be in DT, and will probably be spread out. Access to highways is important to many business, and DT Raleigh doesn't provide that. At least not as much as something int Crabtree, BC, NH areas might.

I like the plans for a second building. If there aren't other buildings to compliment Soleil I, we'll have the Raleigh Pickle.... which no one wants.

[willrusso]

I dunno... For some reason I've always liked cities that had tall buildings scattered all over the place along major highways. Sort of like Houston or Atlanta, etc. It would be cool to drive along the beltline and see random tall buildings on either side. Just look at the effect the Highwoods development on Atlantic Ave/ 440 gives.

[Raleighsfinest]

I dunno... For some reason I've always liked cities that had tall buildings scattered all over the place along major highways. Sort of like Houston or Atlanta, etc. It would be cool to drive along the beltline and see random tall buildings on either side. Just look at the effect the Highwoods development on Atlantic Ave/ 440 gives.

I know. I think it's very cool. People here bash ATL and Houston, but iv'e always admired their suburban development. I mean heck, it's better than having another boring, stuccoed, short, and spread out office complex. Alot of people are afraid of change.

There is alot of comparing going on between Durham and Raleigh. It strikes me that people actually think they're in the same league. Raleigh is twice the city Durham is for christ's sake! Even with that being said alot of people admire the pickle tower, which in actuality is very slim, therefore making it appear tall. It's on a hill . Also Durham's office market is small. When the buildine was erected, Durham was only a little over 100,000.

[MR-2]

I think it's important to consider that this project is another magnitude larger than Durham's pickle.

Watch RBC Centura scrap plans to build their now very expensive headquarters and move into Soleil instead.

[jlblaes]

Watch RBC Centura scrap plans to build their now very expensive headquarters and move into Soleil instead.

I wouldn't count on that. The RBC building is being adjusted slightly but it is still on its way.

I would think that the "Reynolds Tower" which has been in the works for seemingly years is likely to get shelved or shaved down quite a bit.

JB

[Justin6882]

I think it's important to consider that this project is another magnitude larger than Durham's pickle.

Watch RBC Centura scrap plans to build their now very expensive headquarters and move into Soleil instead.

That might be stretching it just a little. I'm pretty sure RBC and Highwoods are dedicated to DTRaleigh - even thought Soliel will be the tallest building in Raleigh, I still don't think that the 18-story building would be as high profile as an HQ downtown would be.

[Tayfromcarolina]

That might be stretching it just a little. I'm pretty sure RBC and Highwoods are dedicated to DTRaleigh - even thought Soliel will be the tallest building in Raleigh, I still don't think that the 18-story building would be as high profile as an HQ downtown would be.

Well put justin. Plus we have to remember that there was already a midrise in that location already and that this will just tack on some more floors to that spot. This just goes to show that the Soleil project is going to provide a synergy to that area not seen in a long while. It is a totally seperate office sub-market than downtown or even the Forum and Highwoods area. I like the idea. And RBC tower is going to be downtown as a status symbol of there dedication to the area and basically downtown will provide a way more prominent image than a displaced corporate office would i.e. First Citizens booo.

[sax184]

I know. I think it's very cool. People here bash ATL and Houston, but iv'e always admired their suburban development. I mean heck, it's better than having another boring, stuccoed, short, and spread out office complex. Alot of people are afraid of change.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask. What, specifically, do you admire about Atlanta and Houston's suburban development? The degree to which stuff is disconnected and derivative of development everywhere else? The way in which the haphazard development creates 9 PM traffic jams?

Here's the thing. Soleil and its little 18-story brother aren't change. They're more of the same because they are part and parcel of the auto-dependent detritus that covers most of Wake County. When you walk out the front of the Soleil center, you're simply stuck at Crabtree's auto slum. You can't walk anywhere- you continue to have a SUBURBAN experience.

The only difference about Soleil and Soleil II is that they're going to generate even more hard-to-mitigate traffic in an already congested area while do nothing to make the area more functional because they are auto-dependent skyscrapers. These buildings do NOTHING to improve the urban condition of Raleigh.

Those who are excited about $185 million in private investment, yes, it is a good deal of money, but it doesn't equal greatness. Tall, shiny buildings do not a great city make.

The magic of the city exists in quality of the PUBLIC realm, not the private. This magic comes from uncertainty- from the novelty of discovery, the jarring of expectations, and the shattering of preconceptions that occur when people interact. The suburbs, by ignoring the public realm and exalting the private realm, where all interactions can be managed to engineer away the unexpected, are designed to prevent this magic from ever occurring.

Around Crabtree and Soleil, the public realm is CRAP, and the $185 million is not going to change that.

When Raleigh sets the stage for these type of interactions in the way development occurs, it will gain in urban stature. Of course, Raleigh has tried to go down this path a bit, but seems uncommitted to seeing these efforts through.

For all its faults, Durham would never make such a mistake.

[ncwebguy]

When the initial Soliel tower was approved, the issue of traffic congestion was snuffed out because it was just a hotel and condos, and there was no office spaces. The traffic difference would be negligable because a hotel being replaced by a less dense hotel and condos that totaled up to about the same.

Now they want to replace the 4-5 story Capital Bank/old Cotton industry office building with a 18 story building to "compliment" the tower. This appears to be the plan all along, so why wasn't it all proposed at the same time? Because such a large proposal couldn't be so swiftly pushed through city council.

The hotel and office buildings suffered *because* of the traffic they genereated (plus Crabrtee in the Christmas shopping season). Tenants sought other options -- ECPI moved to Lynn Road and Glenwood, the Cotton industry moved to Centennial Campus, and Capital Bank is moving to DT. This mistake has already been made. Just because someone is willing to finance it does not mean the city should allow it.

It should not generate controversy because it isn't as tall? Wow. If Solei I was not there, it would be out of place, 10 stories taller than any office building for miles at one of the busiest intersections in the city. An intersection that is congested without Soliel I, let alone Soliel II. Few, if any, people will take public transportation here.

New synergy? BS. There is the same "synergy" that existed between the Sheraton Four Seasons, Cotton/Capital Bank, ECPI, and the travel agency building.

The market can handle this? Umm, no. The land behind Circiut City is a one story office strip mall because that is all the market (and maybe the earth under it) could support 3 or 4 years ago. Why were hotels, and not offices, built on the west side of 440 south of Glenwood? Why is the Class A office park on Edwards Mill only starting to build its second building? Why are the Galleria plans scrapped/on hold? Because the market is not there in this submarket.

5-6 3 story building complexes are not built simultaniously, and they are not built in the middle of nowhere. They are built one, or maybe two, at a rate the market can absorb the new space. They are built near existing high capacity roads or near future corridors. The Westin was promoted as an assett to offices in that area. Now office projects that were approved before Soliel I (including Brier Creek) should be SOL because they want an oversized Soleil II? Ask west Raleigh, the area around six forks/Strickland/540, Regency Park in Cary, etc. how "underestimating" the office market worked out. The Soliel group won't be the only people who suffer if this project fails, but they will be the only group to propser if it succeds?

Does the "anywhere but downtown" crowd really want to be in the next closest to downtown area? How can North Hills denied because it was too close to six forks, but this will be ok so close to Glenwood? Highwoods has not sparked *any* further development near by. There is plenty of available land and good access to 440.

Where do all these Raleigh residents work? Downtown for the state government and other existing offices, the Wake Forest and Six Forks office corridors, RTP, or service industry jobs. The office market is not tight *anywhere*.

This *is* a public subsidy via stomping the rest of the office submarket competition. There is *no* subsidy for Site 1, Site 4/Layfayette, Quorum or Reynolds Tower. In all but the Quorum project, the city is earning money from land sales. There is also the public subsidy of "this is unlike anything else in Raleigh".

Raleigh as a whole may be growing, but this area is not. Companines are not going to relocate from RTP to here because it is close to a mall and two hotels. The RTP Govenor's Inn, the closest *three* star hotel, has had no effect on the office market surrounding it.

As with Soliel 1, opposition to this is not because of a "fear of change" but a fear of imbalance and gridlock the likes of which this area has never seen and is not prepared for.

[dmccall]

The only difference about Soleil and Soleil II is that they're going to generate even more hard-to-mitigate traffic in an already congested area while do nothing to make the area more functional because they are auto-dependent skyscrapers. These buildings do NOTHING to improve the urban condition of Raleigh.

1) The completion of 540 and Edwards Mill Road has drastically improved the traffic situation in the Crabtree area. Mind you, most of the traffic in the morning and afternoon is not from people leaving this area going home. It is people passing thru.

2) If we ideally had a "car-free" city, wouldn't be more efficient to have several different dense pods instead of one central one? With one pod disproportionately dense there is much congestion at peak times (morning/afternoon commutes). At the carfreecities website, they fancy this design:

With this design the center pods are the most dense, but that doesn't rule out the need for density in the leaves. None of these pods, BTW, are "high" density. It is a low-rise community. The most efficient transit system is one that doesn't take too much demand at one time in one direction, right? So the densification of Crabtree as a "city center", like the Raleigh master plan calls for, seems to indeed lend itself as a high-prority transit destination.

[Eastwestrob]

I think it's important to consider that this project is another magnitude larger than Durham's pickle.

Watch RBC Centura scrap plans to build their now very expensive headquarters and move into Soleil instead.

I seriously doubt that will happen MR-2. RBC is not too far from breaking ground. Coming from a corporate construction background, I can assure you that major moves don't just blow in the wind like that. There is way too much time and resources already invested in the DT-HQ plan and the Exposure is nowhere as big as DT Raleigh. Crabtree is great exposure on a local level. Besides...If RBC would even consider Soleil II, then that would really set them back timewise to relocate to Raleigh.

[sax184]

Nice catch on the Carfree Cities website. Carfree Cities is one of the best books I've ever read. I tried to get the author, J.H. Crawford, to come from Lisbon, Portugal and speak in NC a few years back. Most of my colleagues thought he was "too progressive."

[DCMetroRaleigh]

How many actual feet tall will the building be? Because it is in a valley, how far out can the building be seen? I wonder if it will be viewable from far out on 70 west or I-40 near the airport.

[avery]

I like to see downtown projects as much as everyone else on here. Having said that, since Soliel I is already going to happen, I am all for a second tower in that location. It will help to balance out the 40+ floor monster being built there. Yes, it is not in the core of downtown, but I don't think it will take too much steam from downtown. There are new proposals announced every other week for downtown. The entire Triangle as a whole is growing unbelievably. I am much happier with an office building here than I would be if it were in Cary or Brier Creek.

If anything, it adds more appeal to the city and gives Raleigh a much bigger look and feel. We are a city of over 300K and it would be hard to tell looking at the city today. I think all of this development along the I-440 ring will only help Raleigh's image as the primary city in the region. The project is private money and it does add to the city's tax base. I hope it sails through the approval process.

[Transplant]

This *is* a public subsidy via stomping the rest of the office submarket competition.

Please explain how a privately funded building is a public subsidy.

[Raleighsfinest]

I think this also boils down to a matter of opinion. Some people actually look at the glass half empty. I happen to be on the other side of the spectrum. If any of the pessimists' noticed, Raleigh has continuosly broken every office and population projection for the past three years. Ok it's easy to get office space in Raleigh. What's wrong with staying ahead of the game? I never dought this city's prosperity (not even a little bit). The only doughts i have, are for the people who seek to hold this city back.

Also there is nothing wrong with me admiring Atlanta. Sure it's sprawly, but it's still a wonderful place to live,raise a family, and play. Not to may cities can claim that. If it was so bad, why would so many people move there?

[sax184]

I think this also boils down to a matter of opinion. Some people actually look at the glass half empty. I happen to be on the other side of the spectrum. If any of the pessimists' noticed, Raleigh has continuosly broken every office and population projection for the past three years. Ok it's easy to get office space in Raleigh. What's wrong with staying ahead of the game? I never dought this city's prosperity (not even a little bit). The only doughts i have, are for the people who seek to hold this city back.

Also there is nothing wrong with me admiring Atlanta. Sure it's sprawly, but it's still a wonderful place to live,raise a family, and play. Not to may cities can claim that. If it was so bad, why would so many people move there?

I think the biggest split of opinion is what makes a good place to live. I was drawn to this website because it is called urbanplanet, and I'm a big believer in traditional urbanism (walkable streets, dense 4-story to 8-story buildings, local retail, public transportation, vibrant live music/arts scene) and the benefits I believe it brings to human beings.

When I think of times when I've been pumped up about being in an exciting city, it's never been driving in a car, looking at the skyline in the distance thinking about how population and office space growth has exceeded projections.

95% of the growth in the Triangle is not urban- it is suburban. And I realize that this is fine with a lot of people. For me, and I imagine other urbanists here, living in suburban Atlanta, or Holly Springs, or Herndon, VA (what's the difference)- that would feel like a disappointing retreat of some kind from a more vibrant, engaged lifestyle.

[pdxheel]

I think the biggest split of opinion is what makes a good place to live. I was drawn to this website because it is called urbanplanet, and I'm a big believer in traditional urbanism (walkable streets, dense 4-story to 8-story buildings, local retail, public transportation, vibrant live music/arts scene) and the benefits I believe it brings to human beings.

When I think of times when I've been pumped up about being in an exciting city, it's never been driving in a car, looking at the skyline in the distance thinking about how population and office space growth has exceeded projections.

95% of the growth in the Triangle is not urban- it is suburban. And I realize that this is fine with a lot of people. For me, and I imagine other urbanists here, living in suburban Atlanta, or Holly Springs, or Herndon, VA (what's the difference)- that would feel like a disappointing retreat of some kind from a more vibrant, engaged lifestyle.

Well said transitman!

[Raleighsfinest]

I think the biggest split of opinion is what makes a good place to live. I was drawn to this website because it is called urbanplanet, and I'm a big believer in traditional urbanism (walkable streets, dense 4-story to 8-story buildings, local retail, public transportation, vibrant live music/arts scene) and the benefits I believe it brings to human beings.

When I think of times when I've been pumped up about being in an exciting city, it's never been driving in a car, looking at the skyline in the distance thinking about how population and office space growth has exceeded projections.

95% of the growth in the Triangle is not urban- it is suburban. And I realize that this is fine with a lot of people. For me, and I imagine other urbanists here, living in suburban Atlanta, or Holly Springs, or Herndon, VA (what's the difference)- that would feel like a disappointing retreat of some kind from a more vibrant, engaged lifestyle.

This isn't the northeast. The definition of "urban" has changed because of large ratail corporations and the automobile. Realistically speaking the only way to enjoy those qualities you stated is to basically move to the northeast. Southern cities will never be "pedestrian urban" throughout the entire city. Atleast not in our lifetimes. That "does not" mean they can't be enjoyable, fun cities. Atlanta is nicer than alot of dense urban locales IMO. Houston as well. Expecting urban styles of yore in the autombile age, in the "New South" is unrealistic. Although we can find ways to mix the two, but dismissing everything that is suburban is unrealistic and benighted.

Economics also plays a major role in metropolitan lifestyles.