Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[Pack52]

Not that i am against this project, but how did this project get approved and the Kane office buildings (where the firestone and the Exxon sat/sit) next to six forks road not get approved? More just curious about the rationale...

[MR-2]

Actually, one can see hints of the Crabtree already, and the Duke Raleigh Hospital quite clearly from the top floors of the BB&T building, so I imagine one will be able to see downtown from the GlenTree.

I get inspired driving toward the buildingS (note the S) in the high-rise areas of big cities, too. Point being that Raleigh is not yet a market able to support a single high-rise center (downtown) let alone multiple ones. I think the building (note the lack of an S) will look lonely for years to come, a la University Tower still standing out there on 15-501 by itself in Durham.

Durham didn't help by lowering the height limit to 3-ish floors there after it was built. Now it'll always be solitary. But they can't afford any more towers outside their city center as theirs has been doing even worse than Raleigh's until very recently. I noticed while visiting that Target that the building is hardly lit at all, except for the spire. Not a lot of tenants I guess. Maybe they'd have better luck if they just tore it down and rebuilt it downtown, where economic development is actually happening.

Really, compounding all of the stuff going on downtown, the convention center is basically the only important thing that's actually currently being built. The Reynolds and RBC Centura towers are still in the planning stages, and any number of things could get in the way. I'm constantly on the lookout for any signs that someone will coax them into the suburbs with a great lease on space.

It's really telling what a sorry state Raleigh's core is in if at the most it can hope for two new towers after thirteen years of nothing. We don't have much on the drawing boards. Just a bunch of possibilities for things that could potentially happen if a few generous people pull the right strings at the right times.

I can only see the Convention Center helping downtown. That's a pretty sound government project, and it should free up space for some great things across from Progress 1. Whatever covers up that ugly box, unless it's another box, is an improvement. Fayetteville street's rennaissance could wind up failing. The cultural center projects could get indefinately postponed if nobody wants to move in. The contemporary art museum could fail. All manners of things are possible.

[dmccall]

I wouldn't get too upset. Downtown Atlanta went about 10 years without any significant impact on their skyline. Meanwhile the Lenox area was growing like wildfire. Now downtown (really midtown) is taking off again.

[waynehead]

Jeebus Mr-2, you're quite the killjoy.

[romec]

While there are only 2 major office towers planned, the number of residential projects is more important imho. Office buildings put people in your city 9-5 and give your city more national exposure. Residential projects put people downtown 24/7 and the retail/office will follow.

And cut us some slack, most of the country has had a glut in office space for the past several years, you'd only see large speculative projects in the larger markets. The trick isn't the 13 year gap we've had, the trick is to see how long the gap is after these two go up. Hopefully we will have some momentum, increase our national profile and gain a couple more solid HQ relocations.

[ChiefJoJo]

While there are only 2 major office towers planned, the number of residential projects is more important imho. Office buildings put people in your city 9-5 and give your city more national exposure. Residential projects put people downtown 24/7 and the retail/office will follow.

I totally agree. Once the condos come online and Fayetteville Street opens, then the new conv center opens, RBC opens, and the hotel opens, things will be much more alive down there and spur additional development.

[DanRNC]

While there are only 2 major office towers planned, the number of residential projects is more important imho. Office buildings put people in your city 9-5 and give your city more national exposure. Residential projects put people downtown 24/7 and the retail/office will follow.

And cut us some slack, most of the country has had a glut in office space for the past several years, you'd only see large speculative projects in the larger markets. The trick isn't the 13 year gap we've had, the trick is to see how long the gap is after these two go up. Hopefully we will have some momentum, increase our national profile and gain a couple more solid HQ relocations.

Couldn't agree more. I would rather have people living in the downtown and action going on at the street level rather than some type of postcard skyline with soulless towers where everyone packs up and heads out to the burbs at 5. The bottom line is that the Triangle is not a spec market, however, this area is attractive for businesses due to its excellent K-12 education, higher education, low cost of living relative to other large metros, skilled work force, and cultural and recreational activities. The Triangle has had more business recruits (corporate relocations) than any other area in NC or most of the southeast in the last year. If this keeps up then downtown Raleigh will get more businesses there and more building.

[Jones_]

I agree, the hundreds of new residents make downtown...not office towers....and between the First Union and BB&T buildings and the proposed Reynolds and RBC buildings were Progress 2 and the Quorum...15 and 19 stories...not insignificant at all. Get ten more at that height and things will be looking pretty good. Actually there are about that number of buildings planned from 6-20 stories.....the Reynolds 'other' buildings accross from 2nd empire, CC Hotel, N&O building, Wake County office building, Two buildings at the old CC site, Raleigh Office supply condos/apartments, RBC and Reynolds 30+.....that is nine right there.

[avery]

I agree, the hundreds of new residents make downtown...not office towers....and between the First Union and BB&T buildings and the proposed Reynolds and RBC buildings were Progress 2 and the Quorum...15 and 19 stories...not insignificant at all. Get ten more at that height and things will be looking pretty good. Actually there are about that number of buildings planned from 6-20 stories.....the Reynolds 'other' buildings accross from 2nd empire, CC Hotel, N&O building, Wake County office building, Two buildings at the old CC site, Raleigh Office supply condos/apartments, RBC and Reynolds 30+.....that is nine right there.

I think the infill will do as much for the skyline and downtown as will a couple of tall towers. I think of Cinncinnati as a perfect example. There are no huge buildings there, but tons of medium sized towers and it looks awesome.

The tax revenues and money brought into the neighborhood economy can exceed that of 2 high profile buildings.

[Raleighmark]

Not that i am against this project, but how did this project get approved and the Kane office buildings (where the firestone and the Exxon sat/sit) next to six forks road not get approved? More just curious about the rationale...

I think the reasoning behind turning down the Kane office projects at North Hills was that there was no setback to the buildings; that is the entire height was right up against Six Fork Road. The Glen-Tree project will be well away from both Edwards Mill Road and Glenwood Ave.

[plus2]

Pack52,

I believe the North Hills buildings weren't approved because they were too close to the street (six forks). I imagine once the hotel and condo towers are constructed they may resubmit an office plan for that spot. But they are building North Hills piece by piece so it won't be for a couple years anyway.

The other thing to look out for is what is Kane going to do with the other parcels of land he owns on the other side of Six Forks. Are there any taller buildings in the works?

[ChiefJoJo]

I think the reasoning behind turning down the Kane office projects at North Hills was that there was no setback to the buildings; that is the entire height was right up against Six Fork Road. The Glen-Tree project will be well away from both Edwards Mill Road and Glenwood Ave.

Isn't that what WE want in an urban mixed use environment? Maybe Raleigh isn't ready for that yet.

[NCMike1981]

I heard that there are alot of Nimby's around North Hills, especially compared to Crabtree...

[dmccall]

The truth is that the "North Hills Association" which fought Kane tooth and nail only represents 5% of the houses in the geographic area they claim. But they are VERY squeaky wheels. I joined just so I could see what these idiots were up to and I was there for the big North Hills vote. I think 3 of us voted FOR Kane's plan (to something like 35 against). All of these whiners property values have grown handsomely.

[plus2]

The North Hill's nimby's were complaining about the condos along Pamlico and Rowan Streets though. I doubt there was nimby sentiment against the towers on Six Forks.

[JunktionFET]

I think the reasoning behind turning down the Kane office projects at North Hills was that there was no setback to the buildings; that is the entire height was right up against Six Fork Road.

I don't understand why some people oppose minimal setbacks. I think it looks splendid. What do they want instead? A large parking lot in front, or a bunch of wasted space filled with chemically treated grass or twiggy baby trees? What is the compelling argument against minimal setbacks?

[Raleighsfinest]

I don't understand why some people oppose minimal setbacks. I think it looks splendid. What do they want instead? A large parking lot in front, or a bunch of wasted space filled with chemically treated grass or twiggy baby trees? What is the compelling argument against minimal setbacks?

Those are my thoughts exactly. To have responsible growth, you must expect some minor setbacks. BTW, does anyone know what the plans are for the land accross the street on sixforks?

[dmccall]

The North Hill's nimby's were complaining about the condos along Pamlico and Rowan Streets though. I doubt there was nimby sentiment against the towers on Six Forks.

Yes, the primary focus was about the setback and traffic impact of the condos on Pamlico and Rowan, but there was much angst about traffic congestion on Six Forks and building heights on the North Hills property.

[Germaine]

I think the reasoning behind turning down the Kane office projects at North Hills was that there was no setback to the buildings; that is the entire height was right up against Six Fork Road. The Glen-Tree project will be well away from both Edwards Mill Road and Glenwood Ave.

That's a shame. Buildings close to the street encourange pedestrian traffic. I thought the goal of Kane's project was to make that area more ped-friendly. Ditto Glen-Tree.

I don't understand why some people oppose minimal setbacks. I think it looks splendid. What do they want instead? A large parking lot in front, or a bunch of wasted space filled with chemically treated grass or twiggy baby trees? What is the compelling argument against minimal setbacks?

Precisely!

[avery]

I don't understand why some people oppose minimal setbacks. I think it looks splendid. What do they want instead? A large parking lot in front, or a bunch of wasted space filled with chemically treated grass or twiggy baby trees? What is the compelling argument against minimal setbacks?

I guess it is the city's efforts to continue "The City of Oaks" moniker. I am sure that there are certain "green space" requirements on developments (for that area). They must have made the requirement as a benchmark for all developments. There might be a legal argument in the future if another developer were not allowed the same "minimal setback".

I agree that the original plan looked good though.

[Flash]

Alright, here's the first of several simulated renderings based off of my view of what the Glentree will look like. This is a vantage point at the intersection of Glenwood Avenue and Creedmore Road viewing from Glenwood at dusk.

Comparison graphic:

[Raleighsfinest]

WOW!!!!

[MR-2]

Well at least it isn't *bad* architecture overall. I guess everyone's counting on the site elevation to make Hannover II look taller from most angles.

[orulz]

Flash, that's incredible. You never cease to amaze me with your skill for photography and graphics.

[waynehead]

Very cool.

"mock"