Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[orulz]

I seriously doubt that Dicky Walia and Sanjay Mundra are pulling the money out of their pockets to build this tower. They are developers, not investors or a bank or something. They find a site and bring the necessary parties to the table (land owners, architects, hotel chains, contractors, investors, marketers, etc) to assemble the project, but for something this size, there almost has to be an external source fronting the money to actually turn the plans into reality. In this case, that source might be in India.

[uptownliving]

Have they applied for the building permits yet?

I tried doing some digging this afternoon and could not find anything on the Wake Co website.

[RALBOI]

what is the deal with the soleil tower, is this project in trouble, anyone with current information please advice ?

[Eastwestrob]

what is the deal with the soleil tower, is this project in trouble, anyone with current information please advice ?

Why do you ask this? Have you heard something?

[JTsaysToYou]

Why do you ask this? Have you heard something?

I don't think they heard anything. I think they just thought that the project hasn't had any news in a while. I got a little suspiscious for a little bit, but I think they are just doing last minute design/tennant stuff. Although RBC was announced way after soleil, and RBC already broke ground. It just seems like the momentum they had in the beginning has slowed. Probably because of details now. But alas, it will proceed. Don't get too worried Eastwestrob.

[ChiefJoJo]

Well, they are selling the condos for up to $2M ea... it's gonna take a while to fill up--esp when you can now buy a condo in the middle of Raleigh with even better views, within walking distance of many jobs, food, drink, and play all for a fraction of the cost. Where would you buy?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Well, they are selling the condos for up to $2M ea... it's gonna take a while to fill up--esp when you can now buy a condo in the middle of Raleigh with even better views, within walking distance of many jobs, food, drink, and play all for a fraction of the cost. Where would you buy?

Downtown without a doubt!!!

[JTsaysToYou]

GOD IT IS SO GREAT! DOWNTOWN IS WINNING OVER SOLEIL!!!!!!

And we used to think soleil was the death of downtown, FAT CHANCE!

DOWNTOWN WILL ALWAYS BE THE BEST!

[MR-2]

Calm yourself, padowan.

[Dale]

Downtown or not, Soleil looks pretty sweet.

[RaleighLover]

I still say this is a disaster. I can't imagine paying that much for a condo with a view of The Cheesecake Factory in a building that will be prone to flooding along with the rest of the area.

[carynative]

From reading several of the threads, it occured to me that it's not going to be as obnoxious as I thought it was. When I first heard 43 (or whatever stories) I was imagining 2 Hanover with about a 12 story addition going next to Crabtree. No doubt it will be big, but the majority of it will be tucked in down behind the huge hills at Crabtree, blocking its view. Then I read that the floors are shorter b/c of the hotel nature and It's really not going to be that much bigger than II Hanover. I think it will be a good addition to Raleigh, I just really WISH that it was downtown. If it was on one of those lots next to the Gov. manison and hisotry museum, it'd fill in the money shot QUITE nicely.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

No doubt it will be big, but the majority of it will be tucked in down behind the huge hills at Crabtree, blocking its view.

What hills? It lies on a flat flood plain that backs up to a hill. Coming from other areas,(Creedmore rd, Gleenwood, the beltline,etc.), is won't be too visible, but once you are actually in the valley, it will stick out like Durham's pickle!

[sax184]

These people buying for $2 million per unit will not be able to sell for that price, assuming this thing ever gets built. Once people realize that oh, I live in this plush skyscraper but the neighborhood is a total suburban wasteland, they'll have trouble getting what they paid for their place when they try to sell.

[NCMike1981]

I have a feeling that the Glenwood and Six Forks area is going to see some taller buildings built, probably in the midrise range so I don't think this building will be a large tower surrounded by lowrises like University Tower. Perhaps if Durham lifted height restrictions outside it's core University Tower would have some midrise company but alas that has yet to happen. The height restrictions are one of the reasons why the tower has stuck out like a sore thumb for the past 20 years...

[dmccall]

These people buying for $2 million per unit will not be able to sell for that price, assuming this thing ever gets built. Once people realize that oh, I live in this plush skyscraper but the neighborhood is a total suburban wasteland, they'll have trouble getting what they paid for their place when they try to sell.

don't you think the developers and their financial backers have done some research on this? There is a serious demand for nice condos in that part of town. Because there is no difference to being on the 2nd floor vs. the 40th floor, you might as well be efficient and include the condos in with all of the services of the hotel.

Think about this. The condos are on levels 20 thru 43. There are only 1 or 2 condos per floor. Let's say that 80% of the floors have 2 condos and 20% have 1. That makes 11 floors of 2 condos and 3 floors of 1 condo, or 25 condos. If they stuck 25 condos in a 3 story building where Steak and Ale was while building a 20-story Westin, would people be making such a fuss? The impact on the area is exactly the same, however these condos are MUCH more desirable than a bank of low-risers on the hill. You want to talk about a bad view!

These condos will be from the 20th floor up. When you've relaxed in the City Club or Cardinal Club (with its B sanitation grade), did you focus on the ugly roof of the Civic Center? What about the neat roof of the legislature? No. You were looking out at the horizon. These residents will, too.

The location is fantastic. The area has always held its value and always will. The completion of Edwards Mill Rd to Wade Avenue makes this property extremely convenient for people who go to RTP and the airport a lot. As far as them not being able to take in an urban experience, I challenge you to find many people in high rises of small cities who walk to their destination more than 5% of the time. People in the RBC tower will be getting in their cars just as much as Soleil residents.

Funny that nobody was complaining about the floods when the plan for this property was to drastically renovate the Sheraton with a 3:2 room resizing. I don't really see how it is more wrong to build a skinny 43 story building in the flood plane than it is to build a hulking 2 story building, especially one with much rentable square footage at street level. If Soleil floods, they'll just have to renovate the elevator lobby.

I also don't see why a tall building there is an "eyesore" when if the very same building were downtown it would be "beautiful". It's the same building! Durham's University Tower (pickle) stands out because Durham disallowed more tall buildings in the area.

Maybe we should disallow tall buildings in Durham because they aren't in downtown Raleigh. Oh! We can't because that is one of the area's population foci ....so is Crabtree and so is North Hills. At one time they weren't any more of a part of Raleigh than Durham was. Cities don't have a constant fabric of density. They are a merely a dalmation of population foci. People who have a bias for one focus are called, what? Focists? Don't be a Focist!

[MR-2]

Maybe we should disallow tall buildings in Durham because they aren't in downtown Raleigh. Oh! We can't because that is one of the area's population foci ....so is Crabtree and so is North Hills. At one time they weren't any more of a part of Raleigh than Durham was. Cities don't have a constant fabric of density. They are a merely a dalmation of population foci. People who have a bias for one focus are called, what? Focists? Don't be a Focist!

Don't revert to the slippery slope. Durham's in another county with its own central business district. It has tall buildings of its own to create context. Context is basically what people are criticizing the Soleil tower for. It has none. With two other towers going up nearby, that might not be relevant anymore.

[ChiefJoJo]

It has nothing to do with density and everything to do with setting and context of the highrise. Would we have the same issues with a 15 story building of the same exact density? No, I wouldn't, but a 480-ft building in the context of Crabtree puts Soleil very much out of it's element. It's a beautiful design, just bad planning.

[JTsaysToYou]

^^^ agreed, its the height, not the density, that frustrates people. I honestly have no clue how it will look, or how this area will accomodate it, we'll just have to wait and see.

[sax184]

don't you think the developers and their financial backers have done some research on this? There is a serious demand for nice condos in that part of town. Because there is no difference to being on the 2nd floor vs. the 40th floor, you might as well be efficient and include the condos in with all of the services of the hotel.

Actually, I think the developers could care less about resale prices the owners may get years later. Once the developers have sold all the units, found a hotel to buy the hotel section, made their initial profit, and extricated their money, why should they care?

On the other hand, I'm sure there is serious demand for nice condos in that area. You could probably build extremely nice condos for about $400,000 a pop, not $1-3 million each. And this is where context matters for resale. Downtown Raleigh is improving in its urbanity and residential population. There may be a grocery store downtown in the next 3-6 years that you can walk to, which is usually a tipping point indicator for urban living.

Crabtree is not going urban. It will remain a crappy suburban experience at the ground level. If in 8-10 years, some Soleil dweller puts their unit on the market and there are other luxury units available downtown, especially at similar heights, the lack of cachet of Crabtree compared to downtown will put the resale of Soleil units at a distinct disadvantage.

The number one rule of real estate remains location, location, location. I'm sure the developers know what they're doing and can get 55-odd buyers for these units prior to construction. I just think that many of those buyers won't know exactly what's "missing" until after they're living there and they realize that as nice as the views are, they still live across the street from Crabtree Valley Mall. When those people try to sell, if there is a strong luxury market downtown and a healthy swath of monster homes available in the exurban areas, Soleil will be weaker in price per square foot than either other luxury market because the building is a mismatch for its context.

[Transplant]

Crabtree is not going urban. It will remain a crappy suburban experience at the ground level. If in 8-10 years, some Soleil dweller puts their unit on the market and there are other luxury units available downtown, especially at similar heights, the lack of cachet of Crabtree compared to downtown will put the resale of Soleil units at a distinct disadvantage.

I get confused by statements like this. So, on one hand: Crabtree area is a leader in suburban sprawl. On the other hand: efforts to add density to this area are ubsurd. I don't understand what you want.

Is Downtown going to have the shopping experience that Crabtree does? Who knows? Theres a good chance that it will not. Further, will Crabtree look like it does now? Will the mall be razed and built into city blocks? Maybe its re-built like North Hills, with the retail level above the flood plain.

My point is this: I read here about how crappy the suburbs are. Yet any effort to remake the suburbs is lambasted. Not every dense development will be in the downtown area.

[Cary NC]

How do we know what will happen in 8-10 years from now near crabtree, DT, or anywhere for that matter. Did anyone for see the massive $$$ being poured into DT raleigh now, 8-10 years ago? NO.

8-10 years ago, everyone supposedly saw light rail in the triangle in 2006/07. It is here? NO. It won't be here for a while.

My point is that with the amount of growth we are experiencing 8-10 years is so far away. Let us look thru the glasses of 3-5 years. (ie 2009-2011.) We can be a little more certain with those projections/predictions.

[sax184]

I get confused by statements like this. So, on one hand: Crabtree area is a leader in suburban sprawl. On the other hand: efforts to add density to this area are ubsurd. I don't understand what you want.

Is Downtown going to have the shopping experience that Crabtree does? Who knows? Theres a good chance that it will not. Further, will Crabtree look like it does now? Will the mall be razed and built into city blocks? Maybe its re-built like North Hills, with the retail level above the flood plain.

My point is this: I read here about how crappy the suburbs are. Yet any effort to remake the suburbs is lambasted. Not every dense development will be in the downtown area.

My point is that Soleil isn't remaking Crabtree. At the base of Soleil, the design is auto-oriented and suburban. It's more of the same. Just because a building is tall, doesn't mean it is urban. You can have density without urbanity, and I am continually surprised how well Triangle area developers manage to pull this off. Brier Creek is a terrific example. There are lots of apartments there, probably at densities that would be very transit-supportive if it had been organized with any urban design principles. Check out this satellite photo:

Google Maps of Brier Creek

Look at all the higher-density housing on the left side of Brier Creek Parkway, and look at all the retail on the right side. The two are separated by a huge, high-speed road with acres of parking at both. It would be hard to intentionally design a more pedestrian-hostile setup. It's ridiculous to separate this stuff as Raleigh has done because they have guaranteed that every time someone who lives along Brier Leaf Ln needs a gallon of milk, they're getting in the car to get it, adding unneeded congestion to US 70 and Brier Creek Parkway.

Soleil Center does nothing to make the Crabtree area more pedestrian-friendly or to integrate uses in a way that facilitates urban life. Yes, there will be a restaurant or two in the hotel of the Soleil Center, but unless condo residents treat it like a cafeteria (they won't), any trips reduced by residents dining downstairs will be minimal.

If you're talking about glitzy architecture, then yes, I guess Soleil is interesting. If you're talking about URBANITY, then it's another crappy suburban building structure extending its middle finger to other portions of the urban fabric. From an urbanity perspective, Carpenter Village near Morrisville is much more interesting and a step in the right direction, especially if the retail there develops well.

[Transplant]

My point is that Soleil isn't remaking Crabtree. At the base of Soleil, the design is auto-oriented and suburban. It's more of the same. Just because a building is tall, doesn't mean it is urban. You can have density without urbanity, and I am continually surprised how well Triangle area developers manage to pull this off. Brier Creek is a terrific example. There are lots of apartments there, probably at densities that would be very transit-supportive if it had been organized with any urban design principles. Check out this satellite photo:

Google Maps of Brier Creek

Look at all the higher-density housing on the left side of Brier Creek Parkway, and look at all the retail on the right side. The two are separated by a huge, high-speed road with acres of parking at both. It would be hard to intentionally design a more pedestrian-hostile setup. It's ridiculous to separate this stuff as Raleigh has done because they have guaranteed that every time someone who lives along Brier Leaf Ln needs a gallon of milk, they're getting in the car to get it, adding unneeded congestion to US 70 and Brier Creek Parkway.

Soleil Center does nothing to make the Crabtree area more pedestrian-friendly or to integrate uses in a way that facilitates urban life. Yes, there will be a restaurant or two in the hotel of the Soleil Center, but unless condo residents treat it like a cafeteria (they won't), any trips reduced by residents dining downstairs will be minimal.

If you're talking about glitzy architecture, then yes, I guess Soleil is interesting. If you're talking about URBANITY, then it's another crappy suburban building structure extending its middle finger to other portions of the urban fabric. From an urbanity perspective, Carpenter Village near Morrisville is much more interesting and a step in the right direction, especially if the retail there develops well.

There is no doubt that Brier Creek is a mess. And I agree that Soleil by itself is not urban in any fashion.

My intended points were these: Soleil residents, guests and workers will be within 2 min. walk of Crabtree Mall. Someone has to start a trend, hopefully Soleil will be the first with others to follow. Looking so far as UP Forums, though, you will see how much people gripe about (relatively dense) development around this area. I see no problem with Kidd Hill but folks want it kept as is AND want Crabtree urban. We can't have both.

What I see is the only solution to many issues (sprawl, lack of transit, etc) comes down to poor leadership. The city council has to be blamed, including the mayor.

[plus2]

The building won't stand out like a sore thumb once its accompanying 20-story office building and the neighboring 10-story building are completed.