Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[js4life]

The biggest issue for DMU trains along either NS or CSX right of way will be their reluctance to share because of the potential growth Inter modal will play for both. Proximity to multiple ports & being within 1 day delivery of a large portion of the  east coast & upper midwest is why Charlotte is expected to have a larger role in the supply chain network . The cost of keeping both happy is likely to much

[orulz]

You would need to double track the entire CSX line and build the CSX/NS grade separation - no question about that whatsoever. Whether CSX would demand more than that, I cannot say. However, the cost of triple tracking the existing CSX corridor would certainly be lower than adding a double track light rail line alongside it, since there would only have to be ~18 feet between track centers, rather than ~50ft that would be required for light rail, and the electric lines would not be necessary.

The BNSF line in Chicago sees a ridiculous number of trains per day: about 100 passenger trains per weekday combined with somewhere in the vicinity of 50 freight trains. This is on a three- to four- tracked corridor. Admittedly, though, the BNSF has low off-peak frequecy, mostly hourly.

[kermit]

^ nice point on costs. I had not thought of that.

[rancenc]

Recent article about Charlotte's streetcar debut...title of the article is not very flattering!!

http://urbanedge.blogs.rice.edu/2015/07/29/a-streetcar-named-disaster-debate-ensues-as-latest-project-debuts/#.Vb-xtvlVhBf&sref=https://delicious.com/unccuifeed

 

[orulz]

I think Charlotte's streetcar will be more successful than most since it actually is fairly well-conceived from a transportation perspective.

1. It follows a proven demand corridor - the Gold Rush and the high-ridership bus routes on Central and Beatties Ford
2. It mostly goes in a more-or-less straight line, or at least the route it follows is sane with no confusing one way pairs and odd switchbacks.
3. It has a meaningful connection to the rest of the city's transit network
4. Trade street is not a super important street when it comes to handling vehicular traffic, so at some point, the streetcar probably could be converted to mostly dedicated lanes.
5. There is already significant development interest in locations along its route from Plaza-Midwood through Elizabeth, the Square, Gateway, and JCSU

I could see additional spurs on either end. Maybe down Cedar-Morehead-Freedom on the west and Kings-Kenilworth-Scott on the east. A line to the airport should be DMU like the SE (silver) line, not streetcar.

[jtbell]

Despite my focus on problems I really would like to see the DMU model work. Given the number of active rail lines that remain around Charlotte this strategy could be a game changer.

I think a natural candidate for this would be the former P&N route to Gastonia. NCDOT owns most of it, and it's either mothballed (Cedar St. to Pinoca) or has little freight traffic (certainly the Mt. Holly to Gastonia section, and I think also Pinoca to Mt. Holly, the section owned by CSX). You'd have to figure out a way to get it into the heart of Uptown, though.

Edited August 5, 2015 by jtbell

[dubone]

A line going west that skips the airport is DOA.   Yes, I can see some use of the P&N line for a short spur off the streetcar network , but realistically Gastonia is not the destination, the airport is.  We are extremely lucky to have an airport that is 4-5 miles away from the CBD.  It is a no-brainer to add transit between the two in the long range plans.  Who cares about Chemway and Gastonia (rhetorically)?   They are not optimum destinations with a lot of commuter traffic into the Charlotte transit network.  

 

The DMU concept is in order to use existing freight lines, but I think that is still tricky because it needs to be on freight tracks that can be reliably scheduled around, not just passing the safety rules.   Amtrak CAN run on freight tracks, but not reliably, and there is constantly hours late.   We can't have that on an urban transit line.    

 

 

[archiham04]

  They are not optimum destinations with a lot of commuter traffic into the Charlotte transit network.  

 

So do we wait until Gastonia commuter traffic gets to crisis point and then build a commuter train there to their unwalkable exurbs, or do we act proactively and build a commuter train to a community that folks can build around the line and organically create a walkable community.

We REALLY need to change the way we are thinking.  Status quo will continue to drive us into the grave.

 

EDIT:  Sorry, we are in the Streetcar thread... not the regional transportation thread... off soap box.  

Edited August 6, 2015 by archiham04

[15895]

So do we wait until Gastonia commuter traffic gets to crisis point and then build a commuter train there to their unwalkable exurbs, or do we act proactively and build a commuter train to a community that folks can build around the line and organically create a walkable community.

We REALLY need to change the way we are thinking.  Status quo will continue to drive us into the grave.

Gaston County should be the ones pushing for it and being the leaders. Not Mecklenburg. I just don't see much benefit for Mecklenburg building a rail to Gaston

 

At least to Iredell you hit Lake Norman towns, North Lake. South towards SC is South Charlotte, Pineville and Ballanetyne area, to Union you go through east Charlotte and Matthews Mint Hill area. To Cabaruss you go through University. 

 

Then you have our airport and SouthPark areas that should see increased mass transit.

 

so as far as I'm concerned a rail to Gaston would benefit Gaston much more than Meck

[ChessieCat]

^Everyone seems to be missing the point that Norfolk Southern ALSO serves Gastonia from Charlotte.  East of Gastonia, the old P&N and NS lines are mere feet apart.  NCDOT has been trying to figure out for years what to do with the redundant P&N line and the latest short-line railroad operating that section won't renew the contract.  Two lines were redundant from the beginning and that's why P&N went bankrupt and its acquirer CSX eventually abandoned the section from Cedar St to I-85.

If CATS eventually decides to build an airport line with DMU's along the NS corridor (instead of a streetcar along Wilkinson), then Gaston county should lobby for commuter rail but it would require expensive double-tracking and bridge upgrades to cross the Catawba river west of the airport.  

 

 

[archiham04]

 

so as far as I'm concerned a rail to Gaston would benefit Gaston much more than Meck

I understand that when you cross the imaginary politically drawn county line in our MSA your tax dollars go into another bucket... but think a bit more broadly for a second.  Don't we tout the status of our MSA population, and our economic impact of our MSA.  Why wouldn't we be concerned about how the entire economic region grows and perpetuates. Market demand does not stop at the county line... or state line for that matter.  Just ask Union County or York.  What is good for Gaston should be good for Meck.  If Gaston sprawls, Meck will be clogged.  

[Deleted.]

Rode the trolley for the first time today, and I absoloutely loved it. Going towards Elizabeth there was only 5 people on board, but going back to the CTC the trolley was full and I had to stand.   

EDIT- Thinking about it, the trolley brings a lot of charity to Elizabeth and personally I think it's a good use of money and it will be even better with modern streetcars running on it. 

As for the line to Gastonia, I agree with asters:

I'm a native of the western foothills. It's possible I'm misjudging the region -- I didn't grow up in Gastonia, and I'm not as familiar with its politics as I am with the politics further west. Still, I am leery of commuter rail outside the county; first, because Charlotte/Mecklenburg are already huge (Mecklenburg is 525 square miles; for comparison, Philadelphia County in Pennsylvania is 134, Washington DC is about 60, Arlington VA is 25, Denver CO is 150). We have so many needs internally that developing to outlying regions seems unnecessary. Gastonia is about 15 miles away, but would involve crossing the Catawba and South Fork Catawba. If we develop out that way, we'll sell suburban houses for commuters in another county, and the line will then compete for state funding with transit plans that need to be built inside the city. Second, the cost will be borne, at least partially, by Charlotte/Mecklenburg, and there will be fewer stations inside the county than there would be with another light rail or even BRT lines. Keep in mind, too, that in NC there are no regional taxes; anyone who moved into commuting distance of a hypothetical Western Line would be paying Gaston, Cleveland, or Lincoln county taxes.

Once commuter lines are well-developed in Mecklenburg, then we should consider expanding out to Gastonia and other out-of-county areas. 

Edited August 8, 2015 by Piedmont767

[asthasr]

Politically speaking, I don't think the western corridor will ever align with Charlotte. Gastonia, Kings Mountain, Shelby, and so on are all extremely conservative. Most of the cities don't even see themselves as being connected to the Charlotte MSA. Given the large swaths of Mecklenburg that aren't served by transit yet, worrying about pulling reluctant little siblings along seems premature.

[cltbwimob]

Politically speaking, I don't think the western corridor will ever align with Charlotte. Gastonia, Kings Mountain, Shelby, and so on are all extremely conservative. Most of the cities don't even see themselves as being connected to the Charlotte MSA. Given the large swaths of Mecklenburg that aren't served by transit yet, worrying about pulling reluctant little siblings along seems premature.

I think these sentiments, and not just your sentiments but anyone else who holds a similar viewpoint, do nothing but create false dilemmas between Meck and metro cities/counties when we as a regional community should be propping up each other.  

Regarding transit, Gastonia and Gaston County have made very strong overtures in support of commuter rail.  At one point, they even considered asking the state to drop the Garden Parkway and divert part of the funding toward building a commuter rail line between Gastonia and Charlotte.  Charlotteans should be inviting this initiative, not shunning it.

I also don't buy the opinion that those towns consider themselves completely separate from Charlotte.  Gaston county has been part of metro Charlotte since at least 1990, and the commuting ties, the measure OMB uses to define metro areas, have only gotten stronger over the years.  If anything this indicates increasing integration.  Perhaps Shelby is a little more disconnected, but it is still part of the region at large.

Gaston County and all our metro counties are important to the region, and if we are going to ever embrace a truly regional identity, then we have to accept that fact.  We can not keep setting up these Meck vs. Outlying cities/counties false dilemmas that seem to sometimes permeate this board.  Economic ties do not recognize county lines.

Edited August 8, 2015 by cltbwimob

[asthasr]

I'm a native of the western foothills. It's possible I'm misjudging the region -- I didn't grow up in Gastonia, and I'm not as familiar with its politics as I am with the politics further west. Still, I am leery of commuter rail outside the county; first, because Charlotte/Mecklenburg are already huge (Mecklenburg is 525 square miles; for comparison, Philadelphia County in Pennsylvania is 134, Washington DC is about 60, Arlington VA is 25, Denver CO is 150). We have so many needs internally that developing to outlying regions seems unnecessary. Gastonia is about 15 miles away, but would involve crossing the Catawba and South Fork Catawba. If we develop out that way, we'll sell suburban houses for commuters in another county, and the line will then compete for state funding with transit plans that need to be built inside the city. Second, the cost will be borne, at least partially, by Charlotte/Mecklenburg, and there will be fewer stations inside the county than there would be with another light rail or even BRT lines. Keep in mind, too, that in NC there are no regional taxes; anyone who moved into commuting distance of a hypothetical Western Line would be paying Gaston, Cleveland, or Lincoln county taxes.

Edited August 8, 2015 by asthasr

[kermit]

Regarding transit, Gastonia and Gaston County have made very strong overtures in support of commuter rail.  At one point, they even considered asking the state to drop the Garden Parkway and divert part of the funding toward building a commuter rail line between Gastonia and Charlotte.  Charlotteans should be inviting this initiative, not shunning it.

Wow, this is (was) news to me. I would love to learn more about this -- is there any additional info you can share about this? (when, who, how it got shot down, etc.) PM if you prefer.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2015 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

I'm a native of the western foothills. It's possible I'm misjudging the region -- I didn't grow up in Gastonia, and I'm not as familiar with its politics as I am with the politics further west. Still, I am leery of commuter rail outside the county; first, because Charlotte/Mecklenburg are already huge (Mecklenburg is 525 square miles; for comparison, Philadelphia County in Pennsylvania is 134, Washington DC is about 60, Arlington VA is 25, Denver CO is 150). We have so many needs internally that developing to outlying regions seems unnecessary. Gastonia is about 15 miles away, but would involve crossing the Catawba and South Fork Catawba. If we develop out that way, we'll sell suburban houses for commuters in another county, and the line will then compete for state funding with transit plans that need to be built inside the city. Second, the cost will be borne, at least partially, by Charlotte/Mecklenburg, and there will be fewer stations inside the county than there would be with another light rail or even BRT lines. Keep in mind, too, that in NC there are no regional taxes; anyone who moved into commuting distance of a hypothetical Western Line would be paying Gaston, Cleveland, or Lincoln county taxes.

A commuter line to Gaston County will not compete against light rail for state-level funding.   The state has been very clear about the fact that they intend to take no part in light rail and streetcar projects beyond the BLE.  However, the state has, at least on paper, been somewhat more receptive to commuter rail projects.  The idea that one will hurt the others chances for funding at the state level is fallacious. 

I do agree that there are more pressing needs than commuter rail to Gaston, but to couch that argument in terms of development-just like couching it in politics-is wrongheaded.  Yes, you may prefer dense development in Mecklenburg, but at some point you must realize, there is also a suburban component to our metropolitan area, and our nine suburban counties account for the majority of the metro population.  Completely ignoring those counties sets up a situation where road based sprawl will continue to be the norm whereas giving outlying counties a commuter rail option can help mitigate the problem by creating dense nodal development around train stations.  Me personally, I would much prefer a situation where suburbanites can live in dense towncenter-style developments outside Mecklenburg or even within a short drive to the nearest train station rather than insisting on Meck-only rail projects which force non-Meck residents to drive long distances on already overcapacity streets and highways. 

I think it is the benefits beyond housing/development that people miss when they set up false dilemmas between intra-county transit and inter-county transit.  In this case, benefits of inter-county transit such as reduced congestion, better air quality, increased roadway safety, and increased roadway efficiency get lost in the "housing/development in Gaston vs. housing/development in Mecklenburg" arguments.  Those types of dilemmas replace big picture thinking about the transportation system as a whole with myopic arguments that undermine the true synergistic nature of a multi-modal transit system and serve no point but tho sharpen the divide between Mecklenburg and everyone else.  We need to get to a point where we realize that our economic fortunes are interwoven and are not separated by arbitrary political or geographic boundaries.

Back on the subject of streetcar, I really wish that CATS and the city would consider building multiple short streetcar lines emininating in multiple directions from center city rather than building a single, 10-mile streetcar line.  Just imagine how much more functional a multi-pronged streetcar network would be with lines reaching the Met, CMC, Queens University, FreeMoreWest, and other destinations in addition to Presby, JCSU, and Beatties Ford.  In my dream alignments in the attached map, much of it could be built in dedicated ROWs (The Plaza median, Queens Rd medians, central lanes of Freedom Dr.) which would make it much more like a European tram system, and less like a clunky relic of the early 20th century.  But alas...

[asthasr]

I actually do think that TOD in our outlying counties would be awesome... but it won't work without the prioritization of in-town transit first. Let's say, for example, that they build a 20 mile rail line to Gastonia. Great! They could put ten stops along the way, and lease the land in order to capture rents to help pay for the lines. Here's the problem, though: jobs won't exist for everyone in those TOD zones in center city Charlotte, and everything else is unreachable. Some significant percentage of the people who move there will end up working in Ballantyne, or Rock Hill, or University City. All of those people, despite being in TOD zones, will simply contribute to more congestion. Looking to make commuter-oriented pockets of density before we have a functional way to go to South Park or Ballantyne just won't work. Given that, when people look at houses in the outlying cities, even with commuter rail the logical thing to do will not be to buy in the TOD areas, because they don't do a lot for you. Change jobs, or have the company relocate within the city, and your 30 year mortgage is a bad thing.

I also understand that the majority of our MSA is suburban. Heck, most of Mecklenburg is suburban. The expense of serving those suburban counties with transit will be much greater than the expense of serving in-town neighborhoods, though, because of their lack of density--with the ever-present risk of turning out like Atlanta (MARTA should be our "under no circumstances" anti-model).

Fundamentally, also, I think that it's a mistake to think that our economic fortunes are intertwined. They aren't, except insofar as "as goes Charlotte, so goes the region." Charlotte is not significantly affected by Lincoln county or Gaston county employment; we are actually harmed by York County employment. Charlotte is nearly ten times larger than the second largest city of the MSA (Concord at 85k), and Mecklenburg is four times larger than the second largest county (York at 250k).

I'd like to see a light rail or streetcar to the airport before we branch out more... then some lines with trolleybuses because, yes, our system needs to be more than a T or +.

[orulz]

Agree with multiple branches on the streetcar but it needs to be long enough to get high ridership. Going out to Central would get way more ridership than going up The Plaza, don't you think? For the south/east spur how about Trade->Kings->Kenilworth->Scott by Midtown, CMC, and Dilworth,

As for comparing the areas of Arlington, DC, Denver, and Philadelphia with Mecklenburg - you're comparing apples to frying pans to cell phones. The numbers you provide are irrelevant. The areas of all of them are just products of the political system that they were created under, and not to mention their suburbs (and transit systems!) extend well beyond their borders.

I say if you can get cooperation from Gaston, Union, or York county, and get them to cover an appropriate share of commuter rail to Gastonia, Monroe, or Rock Hill, go ahead and build it. This is not news, but sprawl is already going full tilt in those areas. Commuter rail will not really provide extra incentive for people to live out there - that's already well underway - but it WILL provide a greater incentive for businesses and entertainment to focus on central Charlotte, rather than having most of these people drive to suburban jobs.

[asthasr]

Of course their suburbs extend far beyond their borders... and, to some extent, their transit systems do, too. However, the numbers aren't irrelevant because in order to make financial sense the lines must generate more economic opportunity than they cost. To take an example, Gastonia is 20 miles away from Trade and Tryon. SEPTA--which is a pretty good transportation system, although underfunded as always--has as its furthest point Norristown, which is 15 miles from Broad & Market. The end of the orange line from Washington (the one that runs through Arlington, which I include because I view it as a poster child for the potential for TOD) is only 12 miles from the White House. 

I may be an idealist, but I would like to see sustainable infrastructure, lines that are going to be maintainable simply based on the opportunity they generate. I could care less about traffic from far-flung suburbs as long as we aren't building more roads to try to service it (which doesn't work anyway; see SoCal and Atlanta). In the long run, anything we do must be maintainable, or we simply will end up doing the same thing with our commuter rail that we do with our aging highway infrastructure: wring our hands when it needs repair and wait for it to fall down and kill someone.

Specific to us, we need a line to the airport because it is the gateway that businesses see; the potential for development along the neglected Wilkinson corridor is quite large. We need a line to SouthPark, because it is an emergent "second center." A line to Eastland (and a transformative development there) would be great because it would provide opportunity in a neglected area. Then, fundamentally, we need better local service (i.e. buses and/or low-overhead trolleybuses). In my opinion, commuter rail is a nice to have, but separating it from politics or pretending that an MSA is anything other than a descriptive statistical tool is self-defeating in the long run.

[cltbwimob]

Of course their suburbs extend far beyond their borders... and, to some extent, their transit systems do, too. However, the numbers aren't irrelevant because in order to make financial sense the lines must generate more economic opportunity than they cost. To take an example, Gastonia is 20 miles away from Trade and Tryon. SEPTA--which is a pretty good transportation system, although underfunded as always--has as its furthest point Norristown, which is 15 miles from Broad & Market. The end of the orange line from Washington (the one that runs through Arlington, which I include because I view it as a poster child for the potential for TOD) is only 12 miles from the White House. 

I may be an idealist, but I would like to see sustainable infrastructure, lines that are going to be maintainable simply based on the opportunity they generate. I could care less about traffic from far-flung suburbs as long as we aren't building more roads to try to service it (which doesn't work anyway; see SoCal and Atlanta). In the long run, anything we do must be maintainable, or we simply will end up doing the same thing with our commuter rail that we do with our aging highway infrastructure: wring our hands when it needs repair and wait for it to fall down and kill someone.

Specific to us, we need a line to the airport because it is the gateway that businesses see; the potential for development along the neglected Wilkinson corridor is quite large. We need a line to SouthPark, because it is an emergent "second center." A line to Eastland (and a transformative development there) would be great because it would provide opportunity in a neglected area. Then, fundamentally, we need better local service (i.e. buses and/or low-overhead trolleybuses). In my opinion, commuter rail is a nice to have, but separating it from politics or pretending that an MSA is anything other than a descriptive statistical tool is self-defeating in the long run.

I think we are arguing two sides of the same coin here.  Once again, I agree that there are more pressing needs than commuter rail to Gaston, Union, York, or any of the others.  Indeed, I think that our top priorities should be light rail to the airport, some form of dedicated guideway transit to Southpark, and the Silver Line vs. commuter rail lines reaching far flung suburbs.  However, it is fallacious to say that we should not try to "pull" our metro area along because some counties are more right-leaning and not as progressive as Meck, or because commuter rail will incentivize living in outlying counties vs the central county.  Both claims are flawed, but they are the basis of your argument, at least the way I read it.

I also would like to make note that MSA definitions do have meaning well beyond their use as a descriptive statistical tool-they are powerful formulations that help define the true extent of a region beyond political boundaries.  To see how this is true, consider the differences between metro Charlotte and metro Atlanta.  The primary counties of the two regions, Fulton and Mecklenburg, have roughly the same population, and median incomes are fairly similar as well; however, when you look at the economic heft of the two regions, Charlotte and Atlanta are not in the same ballpark.  Why? Because metro Atlanta's population, as delineated through the use of MSA definitions, is 2.5 times as large as metro Charlotte.   Atlanta's massive suburban population, plays no small part in the city's economic well-being.  It is the reason that Atlanta is considered one of the top 50 global power cities whereas Charlotte is not, it is the reason Atlanta is able to attract Fortune 500/1000 companies galore whereas Charlotte has lost a substantial portion of its Fortune 500/1000 HQs, it is the reason Atlanta can sustain flights to all corners of the globe, it is the reason Atlanta is a primary logistics hub, it is the reason Atlanta has more hotels and sports teams, and the list goes on and on and on.  If not for the MSA, Atlanta and Charlotte would play on a roughly equivalent playing field in terms of their economies because the central counties are approximately the same size.  However, because of the larger MSA, Atlanta plays in a league completely different than Charlotte.  To say that the economic fortunes of the central cities/counties are not tied to the suburbs is completely false.  If it were true, Atlanta and Charlotte would likely be in the same tier of cities, but because Atlanta's metro population is so large, it is able to compete in a league with global cities whereas Charlotte is not.

Agree with multiple branches on the streetcar but it needs to be long enough to get high ridership. Going out to Central would get way more ridership than going up The Plaza, don't you think? For the south/east spur how about Trade->Kings->Kenilworth->Scott by Midtown, CMC, and Dilworth,

I don't think that ridership along Central will be that high because of the way that the streetcar line is designed (i.e. mixed traffic, copious amounts of stops, etc).  I think it will be too slow to attract riders beyond PM because of it's slow speed.  The average speed for mixed traffic streetcars is 6-10 MPH .  Heck, it takes 10-12 minutes to go from the hospital to CTC, imagine how long it will take to go from, say, Eastland to CTC.  As such I expect it to not be attractive for long trips which will hurt its ridership.  Conversely, if CATS was designing it to have a dedicated ROW along Central and signal prioritzation, I think that would change the equation entirely.  However, the way the line is currently designed/conceptualized, beyond PM I expect the streetcars to be sparsely used.

The better proposal in my opinion is to route the Silver Line along Central by converting the inner lanes of the road into a dedicated guideway for light rail that could then continue onto Matthews via a Sharon Amity-Monroe Rd-CSX-Independence Point Pkwy routing.  See the attached maps.  Notice I also have a concept for how the Silver Line could be extended to the airport.

 

[asthasr]

I think we are arguing two sides of the same coin here.  Once again, I agree that there are more pressing needs than commuter rail to Gaston, Union, York, or any of the others.  Indeed, I think that our top priorities should be light rail to the airport, some form of dedicated guideway transit to Southpark, and the Silver Line vs. commuter rail lines reaching far flung suburbs.  However, it is fallacious to say that we should not try to "pull" our metro area along because some counties are more right-leaning and not as progressive as Meck, or because commuter rail will incentivize living in outlying counties vs the central county.  Both claims are flawed, but they are the basis of your argument, at least the way I read it.

I think that the metro area will be pulled along in spite of themselves. I don't think we should put our (very limited) resources into an attempt to pull them along, because there are so many things to spend them on in our (already sprawling) core. I think that what would happen, if we build into the outer counties, is that we would end up bearing a large part of the cost despite the primary benefits accruing to the outer counties; or, political climates might nix a project in flight so that nobody gets the true benefit. I guess I would say something like this: assume $1.20 of result from $1 in investment in transit. (This is simplified, based on nothing but a hypothetical). If we build commuter lines, we might accrue ten cents, or half the "profit," while the outer county accrues ten cents as well. It's highly likely, though, that we'd end up bearing more of the costs, both in terms of direct tax funding as well as opportunity cost (if we spend half our transit investment on a suburban commuter line, we are giving up the opportunity to build other projects that will accrue greater benefits internally). Of course, it's also extremely likely that we'll also be subsidizing more suburban expressways, because that's the way America works, so it seems even worse by comparison.

I also would like to make note that MSA definitions do have meaning well beyond their use as a descriptive statistical tool-they are powerful formulations that help define the true extent of a region beyond political boundaries.  To see how this is true, consider the differences between metro Charlotte and metro Atlanta.  The primary counties of the two regions, Fulton and Mecklenburg, have roughly the same population, and median incomes are fairly similar as well; however, when you look at the economic heft of the two regions, Charlotte and Atlanta are not in the same ballpark.  Why? Because metro Atlanta's population, as delineated through the use of MSA definitions, is 2.5 times as large as metro Charlotte.   Atlanta's massive suburban population, plays no small part in the city's economic well-being.  It is the reason that Atlanta is considered one of the top 50 global power cities whereas Charlotte is not, it is the reason Atlanta is able to attract Fortune 500/1000 companies galore whereas Charlotte has lost a substantial portion of its Fortune 500/1000 HQs, it is the reason Atlanta can sustain flights to all corners of the globe, it is the reason Atlanta is a primary logistics hub, it is the reason Atlanta has more hotels and sports teams, and the list goes on and on and on.  If not for the MSA, Atlanta and Charlotte would play on a roughly equivalent playing field in terms of their economies because the central counties are approximately the same size.  However, because of the larger MSA, Atlanta plays in a league completely different than Charlotte.  To say that the economic fortunes of the central cities/counties are not tied to the suburbs is completely false.  If it were true, Atlanta and Charlotte would likely be in the same tier of cities, but because Atlanta's metro population is so large, it is able to compete in a league with global cities whereas Charlotte is not.

Atlanta is an interesting example. It is almost exactly what I would like to avoid--almost in every respect. In Atlanta, you see politically powerful suburban ring counties strangling the core, which has historically seen horrible disinvestment and which has seen multiple "cooperative" projects ruined by poisonous politics. Look at MARTA (complete with its hateful names)--they focused on a long commuter line, with the effect being that the rail corridor is next to useless. There's actually a five mile gap between two of the stations. That's incredible, for an urban rail system. I'd also argue that they actually punch below their weight class. Atlanta has a metro population of 5.5 million, which makes them larger than Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, and Minneapolis -- but all of those cities seem more prominent, and rising. That's debatable, of course, but I definitely don't think Atlanta should be our model.

 

[ChessieCat]

^Agree with you completely.  The Braves are the classic example, moving north to Cobb county cause MARTA never reached Turner Field.  Who would plan an Olympics without MARTA going to the Olympic Stadium, or without infrastucture improvements (besides highways) as a lasting legacy?

Thank goodness fror Ryan Gravel who saw what Charlotte saw a long time ago-- turning abandoned rail lines into ligh rail corridors and greenways that will revitalize the inner core.  If he hadn't sent out his Master's thesis to promiment politicians, the Atlanta Beltline would have never been conceived.   Our leaders saw this potential decades ago and as a result the abandoned R-line became the Blue Line!

[birky]

At the risk of getting way off topic, MARTA not going to Turner Field has little to do with the Braves moving to Cobb County.  Note that MARTA does also not connect anywhere close to the new Braves stadium in Cobb County.  The Braves moving is about race and class/wealth. They're a private business, that's their prerogative.  But let's be up front about it.

Edited August 11, 2015 by birky

[jednc]

At the risk of getting way off topic, MARTA not going to Turner Field has little to do with the Braves moving to Cobb County.  Note that MARTA does also not connect anywhere close to the new Braves stadium in Cobb County.  The Braves moving is about race and class/wealth. They're a private business, that's their prerogative.  But let's be up front about it.

Their stated reason has to do with parking revenue. That was also the focus of the negotiations with the city I believe. That, and they wanted  money for a new stadium. I'm not saying your explanation wasn't part of the equation, but I don't think that was stated by the team was it? I know they created a map that showed the locations of their season ticket holders and Cobb Co. was much more central to their base. If that's their main reason for moving alone, that isn't really something I would frame as "class wealth". Don't get me wrong, I wish they wouldn't make the move. I think regional sports teams belong at the heart of (not necessarily the center of) their regions (see Foxborough, Arlington, Irving, etc).