Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Nolan]

I think it's best to get the overpass over Independence rebuilt for the streetcar now then later when factoring inflation and construction materials,. It will have with the overall cost lowered whenever the next phase starts. 

[southslider]

There is no reaching Midwood without a lot more cost of somehow getting around CSX. The last stop on Phase 2 is still closer to Central than any Blue Line station is to Tryon.

[Niner National]

There is no reaching Midwood without a lot more cost of somehow getting around CSX. The last stop on Phase 2 is still closer to Central than any Blue Line station is to Tryon.

Can't just do a 4 way piece of track through there?

[kermit]

Can't just do a 4 way piece of track through there?

Nope, federal regulation prohibit that (transit and heavy rail on the same tracks). Even if regulations allowed it CSX would never accept the liability, as private land owners who are exempt from eminant domain they have the final say.

Edited February 4, 2015 by kermit

[pgsinger]

There is no reaching Midwood without a lot more cost of somehow getting around CSX. The last stop on Phase 2 is still closer to Central than any Blue Line station is to Tryon.

 

Is going under the CSX line on Hawthorne really that big of a deal?  People may be forgetting that a future phase (hopefully, Phase 3) will take the line out Hawthorne to a maintenance facility at Clement, then back down Clement to Central.  

 

It will also be interesting to see what happens with property values and development on the other end of the line, near JCSU.

[15895]

Is going under the CSX line on Hawthorne really that big of a deal? People may be forgetting that a future phase (hopefully, Phase 3) will take the line out Hawthorne to a maintenance facility at Clement, then back down Clement to Central.

It will also be interesting to see what happens with property values and development on the other end of the line, near JCSU.

It will be very interesting to see how things shape up on the West side.

I'm most eager for it to be extended to at least The Plaza section of Plaza-Midwood (Because Plaza is such an important destination) and if ever, to the airport. I hope with Fuel being cheaper that CATS is getting a boost in revenue. Tha way we get more money to play with. CATS can throw some skin in the game for a phase 3 and hopefully the airport can contribute along their property. Hopefully by then the blue line is complete so we can't be threatened haha)

[kermit]

Yea, I am puzzled about the streetcar maintenance. There will be one at French st (JCSU and the Brookshire) and the Clement st area was also discussed. However I am confused why they didn't just plan for maintenance and storage to occur at the new LRT yard on the BLE (old NS intermodal yard). We really don't need four separate facilities.

Edited February 4, 2015 by kermit

[dubone]

They once suggested creating an connector extension of Commonwealth to Sunnyside with a bridge, but that is when the Hawthorne was supposed to be free.

 

I know there was no real time or public meeting discussion on it for Phase II, but now that the Hawthorne Bridge needs to be replaced, they might as well just stay back and just make the end of Phase II just prior at Bay Street.  Then just re-analyze the right way to get through the area.

 

 

I actually think that in the same vein as extending Commonwealth, just do that to Shenandoah.  Even though it would remove some of the properties in Elizabeth closest to Independence, it would create a new street and transit connection that adds connectivity value to the street network in the area (connecting Chantilly and restoring the east-west grid street lost when Independence was converted to a freeway) as well as providing the streetcar with an efficient route over the tracks and then under Independence to the heart of Midwood.   

 

Replacing the entire Hawthorne bridge over US74 was $8-10m, so a very short bridge over the tracks, and a 1/4 mile street connector would likely be the same cost.    They maybe could even do that in this Phase II and actually get the streetcar to Chantilly and Plaza Midwood.

 

 

 

 

[ajfunder]

I don't think they are planning two maintenance facilities for the streetcar. I think the site on the West End and the site in Plaza Midwood were both candidates for the single maintenance facility. I think the city has decided to go with the West End site and it may even be part of phase 2. I might be mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong.

[archiham04]

^Between the redundancy of the Hawthorne Bridge, and the use of other sites for maintenance... this or similar a similar alignment seems like an ideal revision.  dubone, i think the tricky part on your route would be the elevation change between the track overpass and the pecan underpass...  They could fly over indy and pecan and use the north shoulder ROW to drop elevation and align at the terminus of the Plaza. I am sure that variations on this route have been hashed out forward and backwards over the years.  

[southslider]

And the federal red tape of going through Elizabeth, since a National Historic Register area

[Third Strike]

Since the Hawthorne Bridge is going to need to be replaced, I wonder if the same will need to be done with the bridges over Brookshire and I-85. Makes me wonder if the third phase will mostly focus on extending east.

 

 

[teeg]

Since the Hawthorne Bridge is going to need to be replaced, I wonder if the same will need to be done with the bridges over Brookshire and I-85. Makes me wonder if the third phase will mostly focus on extending east.

 

Very interesting question.

[jednc]

 

 

 

But while, yes, congress must approve the budget, it seems to me that the transit budget's selected projects don't actually get stopped.    Obviously it would be good if there were real transitionary change and a major budget increase occurred, but with a status quo budget, the selections have typically remained as determined.

 

It is awesome that we will (presumably) get it, as the full phase I and II with historic replicas and modern tram cars (I do hope they keep both) for the full 4 miles will be a proper circulator for the major neighorhoods east and west of uptown.  

 

I still wish that they had included all the way to Central, after spending so much to replace the damn bridge to get across, might as well get riders closer to Midwood.  

 

 

Regardless, it is awesome news that it was validated in the federal process.   I remember in 2007 hearing about the new small starts program and the hope was for this project to be built through that.  So it is big news that we have won federal competitions twice for this project that people never seem to understand is feasible and justifiable by merits and metrics and quantitative reviews against projects across the nation.  

Well said!

[archiham04]

And the federal red tape of going through Elizabeth, since a National Historic Register area

I didn't think that Elizabeth was a historic district.

[teeg]

I didn't think that Elizabeth was a historic district.

Not a city historic district, but I was told by HDC staff that some part of Elizabeth is a National Register neighborhood.  

[archiham04]

Sure is... wow.

Elizabeth Historic District 
(added 1989 - Mecklenburg County - #88003003) 
Roughly bounded by Central Ave., Seaboard Coast Line Railroad, E. 5th St., Kenmore Ave., Park Dr., and E. Independence , Charlotte 
(2650 acres, 887 buildings, 4 structures, 1 object)

http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com/nc/mecklenburg/districts.html

[archiham04]

I'm sure it has been explained to me before, but I am realizing (or re-realizing) that there are National Historic districts that do not subject themselves to zoning restrictions and also (I presume) do not get tax breaks-Elizabeth&Myers Park... but there are also local historic districts that may not be National Historic districts, that do subject themselves to zoning restrictions-Plaza-Midwood... and then those that are both-Dilworth

[teeg]

^Yeah, you've got it.  A given property can be in a national, local, both, or none.  In my opinion, being in a national district is more prestigious, and although it does very little to guarantee preservation, I think it does come in to play with government funded transportation projects.   

 

The historic district tax break thing is not straightforward, though.  There's no guaranteed tax benefit for being in an historic district.  It might qualify you for a preservation credit, though.  There are property tax deferrals for designated historic landmarks, but that's an additional, separate program.  

 

By the way -- 15 years ago (?!) I was told that there was a national historic district application in the works for PM.  No telling where that went.  Flip side of the coin -- I read that Elizabeth was designated a local historic district by city council way back when.  It's not now, because, the ECA brought out the lawyers?  Before my time...

[archiham04]

Historic district status definitely comes into play for Environmental Impact Studies for major transportation investments.  For instance a neighborhood adjacent to i26 in Asheville was a factor in the EIS for the French Broad River bridge design.

[dubone]

^Between the redundancy of the Hawthorne Bridge, and the use of other sites for maintenance... this or similar a similar alignment seems like an ideal revision.  dubone, i think the tricky part on your route would be the elevation change between the track overpass and the pecan underpass...  They could fly over indy and pecan and use the north shoulder ROW to drop elevation and align at the terminus of the Plaza. I am sure that variations on this route have been hashed out forward and backwards over the years.  

Yeah, I was wondering about the grade change there.  But it is a brainstorm that has 0% chance so I conveniently ignored that setback.  

[dubone]

But let me go at it a completely different way, part of the problem with the Hawthorne bridge is that the supports affect the options for converting the bus lanes in Independence.  Why could the rebuilding of the bridge not just fall under the budget of the tollway project where there will be revenues from the HOT conversion?  In the long run, it gives them flexibility to put a center barrier like how they're designing the newer expressway conversion.    Shift the burden to the HOT project and use the $6.8m to extend the streetcar farther up Hawthorne to add the Barnhardt station to support the redevelopment of the Kellogg site and the Hawthorne Mills redevelopment.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.218329,-80.819764,3a,75y,88.18h,83.9t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3-XPsbtUWUNLqYEr0zO7TQ!2e0

 

 

I am somewhat shocked that the city has not done anything to plan for an actual Central bridge over CSX.  It just bothers me that there is such a steep incline east of the CSX line, so they could use that topography to their advantage.   Shift the incline to west of the tracks and then a short span over the rail corridor.   If they did it sooner than later, they could actually allow the redevelopment of the pawn shop, and the land around Thirsty Beaver to be designed to match the new raised street.  They can then also solve the problem for the streetcar and the traffic and safety issues on such a major thoroughfare in the city.  

[southslider]

The initial HOT lane conversion of the busway would keep the Hawthorne bridge supports, since the two-way busway will initially become a reversible, single HOT lane.

[dubone]

Well, ok.  Now outside the dream world I was exploring, what is the actual plan?  Are they really going to replace the bridge with another one that still has those support pillars?   If so, why are they not upgrading from a different budget to give themselves the flexibility to realign those lanes in the future over the 50y lifespan of the new bridge.   Once it has a transit line across it, it is going to be hugely disruptive to rebuild without pillars if they need to change the road alignment, which seems very likely at some point.

[ScottCLT]

I hadn't been on the north side of uptown in a while, but I have been by there a few times recently and couldn't believe how far the streetcar construction has come. I didn't realize at first that the streetcar would go up to the transit center and then make a loop around the arena in order to not require switching in reverse. I don't think this is the same way at the Presbyterian end, but driving down 5th Street, I was just thinking, "what the heck are these tracks for?" and looked it up and found that was basically a no-reverse turnaround. The construction looks very close to completion.

Holy cow...1,000 posts! I'm a Burg now!!!