ARCHIVE: Downtown Orlando Master List

[demon]

So yesterday I went to SoDo and I came to the conclusion that we really need light rail in this city. Maybe we don't need it everywhere, but I think it could enhance living here. Even if it just ran from Loch Haven Park to SoDo and linked a few neighborhoods with downtown I think that would be amazing. It would be great to live downtown and be able to catch rail to the Science Center, or go shopping at Target. Or live in College Park and be able to take rail downtown for work. I don't know why we're not pushing for this harder.

[bulldogger]

What you are saying represents change and we are all creatures of habit.

[bulldogger]

We all know how well mass transit works in the northern cities due to their long history.

Guess what city this is. Slowly expanding their transit system and obviously catching on after a couple decades of service

[go_vertical]

I know Miami has a Metromover.

[bulldogger]

Yes. The second and last picture give it away. The Metromover and the Carnival Center signs do that.

The last time I visited Miami was for the victory parade after the Heat won the NBA title. It was obviously packed for that, but other than game days, transit in Miami had traditionally been lightly used. It has definitely picked up in the past year. These pictures were taken in October on a regular week day during work hours.

And back to Demon, we need more mass transit in Orlando.

With regards to SoDo, I have gone at least once a week to the Target (including this afternoon) and made one visit to TJ Maxx just to see what's there.

[JRS1]

the problem as we all know is that we don't have a transit-minded culture here like NYC has for example. not enough density-identity to where you wouldn't consider using a car like in Manhattan.

Miami Beach is the closest thing to that. Loch Haven to DT to SoDo could be that if the City super promotes new development in that quadrant, along Orange Ave.

We already have 4 CRT stations planned for that quadrant. if/when built, probably 40 min. wait times between trains.

[demon]

the problem as we all know is that we don't have a transit-minded culture here like NYC has for example. not enough density-identity to where you wouldn't consider using a car like in Manhattan.

Miami Beach is the closest thing to that. Loch Haven to DT to SoDo could be that if the City super promotes new development in that quadrant, along Orange Ave.

We already have 4 CRT stations planned for that quadrant. if/when built, probably 40 min. wait times between trains.

I think that Lochaven to SoDo is that already. The city should built it now and watch the density grow. Then extend it to Millenia, the tourist district, the airport, and Lake Nona.

I'm going to a convention in Minneapolis in the spring (thankfully) and when I did research on the city I found that I won't need a car while I'm there. There's light rail running from the airport to downtown. I can go see a Twins game and the Mall of America without ever renting a car. I'm sure that's one of the reasons the convention is being held there. Mass transit makes it more attractive.

This city is losing money every day that we don't supply better mass transit because we're losing conventions to other cities. I think in these lean economic times we're also losing tourists. If we gave people a cheaper way to get from teh airport to their hotel they may be more inclined to visit.

[bulldogger]

Miami has slowly grown into what it is today. The metromover had been there, but it has grown into 3 overlapping segments in downtown. That started out as one loop a couple decades ago. You also have their commuter rail (Tri-Rail) that runs in from West Palm and Ft Lauderdale. The MetroRail runs out to the airport, up to the Tri-Rail station and one goes out to Kendall/Dadeland (don't forget Shorty's).

I think there is already a problem with our plans for commuter rail and that is too many stops in downtown. It is a shortsighted plan. To me, it says we don't anticipate having any light rail in addition to commuter rail. To have 4 stops within a 3 to 4 mile span is overkill for heavy rail. Part of the point of commuter rail is to use less energy... FAIL. Start, stop, start, stop. If you are heading South and you plan on getting off at Church Street, you would be better served to get off at the Lynx Central Station (intermodal) and take the Lymmo to Church Street by the time the train fully unloads and loads passengers and then inches down a half mile (about a mile using the Lymmo which goes slightly out of the way). This may seem to make sense now, but isn't that a waste of money to create 2 heavy rail stations so close together?

[demon]

Miami has slowly grown into what it is today. The metromover had been there, but it has grown into 3 overlapping segments in downtown. That started out as one loop a couple decades ago. You also have their commuter rail (Tri-Rail) that runs in from West Palm and Ft Lauderdale. The MetroRail runs out to the airport, up to the Tri-Rail station and one goes out to Kendall/Dadeland (don't forget Shorty's).

I think there is already a problem with our plans for commuter rail and that is too many stops in downtown. It is a shortsighted plan. To me, it says we don't anticipate having any light rail in addition to commuter rail. To have 4 stops within a 3 to 4 mile span is overkill for heavy rail. Part of the point of commuter rail is to use less energy... FAIL. Start, stop, start, stop. If you are heading South and you plan on getting off at Church Street, you would be better served to get off at the Lynx Central Station (intermodal) and take the Lymmo to Church Street by the time the train fully unloads and loads passengers and then inches down a half mile (about a mile using the Lymmo which goes slightly out of the way). This may seem to make sense now, but isn't that a waste of money to create 2 heavy rail stations so close together?

Not only is it a waste of money it makes the train less functional for other riders.

[cwetteland]

I think that Lochaven to SoDo is that already. The city should built it now and watch the density grow. Then extend it to Millenia, the tourist district, the airport, and Lake Nona.

If you're talking about Commuter Rail it will never be extended to Millenia, the tourist district or Lake Nona because it uses existing CSX tracks. Any branching to the areas you mention will need to be via another mode (maybe light rail).

[Boomer136]

Miami has slowly grown into what it is today. The metromover had been there, but it has grown into 3 overlapping segments in downtown. That started out as one loop a couple decades ago. You also have their commuter rail (Tri-Rail) that runs in from West Palm and Ft Lauderdale. The MetroRail runs out to the airport, up to the Tri-Rail station and one goes out to Kendall/Dadeland (don't forget Shorty's).

I think there is already a problem with our plans for commuter rail and that is too many stops in downtown. It is a shortsighted plan. To me, it says we don't anticipate having any light rail in addition to commuter rail. To have 4 stops within a 3 to 4 mile span is overkill for heavy rail. Part of the point of commuter rail is to use less energy... FAIL. Start, stop, start, stop. If you are heading South and you plan on getting off at Church Street, you would be better served to get off at the Lynx Central Station (intermodal) and take the Lymmo to Church Street by the time the train fully unloads and loads passengers and then inches down a half mile (about a mile using the Lymmo which goes slightly out of the way). This may seem to make sense now, but isn't that a waste of money to create 2 heavy rail stations so close together?

If the new bus station was next to the new events center which is close to the new pac, I would agree. But I think you really have to make it easier for folks to do a park and ride for special events as well as the daily commuters. You also have the benefit of commuters being closer to their destination on foot.

The train is supposed to have a max capacity (in a three car set) of 654. The Lymmo does what, 33? So you would need close to 20 buses to make the inter modal switch. Hopefully, there might be 'specials' for the event crowd, instead of one every two hours that would be running along the time of a Magic game or show opening.

In this case, I think the proposal is more a 'light rail' operation concept that travels on heavy tracks. You want heavy, this is supposed to eventually connect to two Amtrak Stations.

[demon]

If you're talking about Commuter Rail it will never be extended to Millenia, the tourist district or Lake Nona because it uses existing CSX tracks. Any branching to the areas you mention will need to be via another mode (maybe light rail).

Yes, I'm saying there should be light rail. Let the intial run be College Park, Loch Haven, Downtown, and SoDo. As the demand for it increases make the next stop Millenia. How cool would a light rail stop inside the mall be? That could also work for people who want to park & ride. Then just keep expanding to tourist destinations and eventually the airport.

[sunshine]

A line from College Park to SODO would not generate enough riders to justify it. Your first line should be from downtown to I-drive or Altomonte to downtown orlando.

[OCF]

Sanford to Downtown would be a good first stretch considering most of the residents in this area use the same resources.

[JRS1]

the problem is that Lake Mary, Maitland, and Downtown are all office/ employment nodes. people only need to get there in the am and leave in the pm, not often during the day. CRT is perfect to connect those spots and a major originator of riders: West Volusia.

LRT would probably work best close in connecting downtown to Winter Park, College Park, Baldwin, SODO, and perhaps Maitland, with the main spine going to OIA and the OCCC/ I-Drive/ Universal/Sea World/etc... Ideally, all major groupings of neighborhoods would have a nearby station, but there is prob. not enough density for that-- except for the tourist element on I-Drive. Maitland/ WP has the density for a connection thru downtown.

[bulldogger]

Well, I said that I would comment on my Amtrak experience over the Thanksgiving holiday. I traveled out of Winter Park due to proximity to one of our travelers only being a quarter mile from that station. We traveled to Raleigh, NC. The only option is traveling overnight. The train left here around 7:30pm. The first couple hours go by just like a plane, but we were on the train for over 12 hours. It was only a couple more hours than driving. There is more space per seat than air travel. I went coach, but you can upgrade to a sleeper car. The sleeper car is oddly closer to the engine cars, which I would think that the horn would be louder there. There were also cars for dining and snacks. Each car has a small water receptacle (not sure what you call it, but it wasn't exactly a fountain) and at least one if not two toilets. Each seat has foot rests and electrical outlets. You can prop your feet up a little and recline your seat, but you can only sleep so long in the same position before you try turning to the other side and there is no where to go and you can't quite stretch your legs all the way out. There was also a serious issue with the car being overheated, but that was only on the way up to NC since we were heading into freezing temperatures. I woke up every hour sweating which made the ride unbearable. I do understand why, though, because when I got off the train in Raleigh, there were icicles on the bottom of the train. On the way back to FL, the heat wasn't used and it was much more comfortable. As far as the food goes, the diner car was making last call by the time I got settled, so I didn't even try it. There were steaks and trout and things like chicken wings. The snack car was like having a mini- 7-Eleven to order drinks and food. They had cheeseburgers, chicken wings, pizza, chips, sodas, juices, coffee, etc. Everything was cooked in one of those 7-Eleven microwaves. You can get beer and cocktails and the bonus is that you can bring your own food and drinks and they don't care. The drawback to the snack car is that it closed down at midnight. We brought a 2 liter of ginger ale and a bottle of bourbon which helped pass the time. We also watched some movies on our laptops, but there is no wifi available.

There were pluses over flying, but minuses as well. There were really no security hassles, so you don't have to get to the station much earlier than your travel time. You have more space per traveler and the food options were a little better. I usually fly on JetBlue, so one downside to the train is that there was no TV or provided radio signal. Travel time definitely goes to flying. Price goes to train to a certain point.

[prahaboheme]

I've taken the Acela highspeed train between Boston-NY-DC on a few occasions and it is considerably more comfortable and luxurious than the standard Amtrak. The high speed rail planned for Florida seemed in line with this.

[cwetteland]

I've taken the Acela highspeed train between Boston-NY-DC on a few occasions and it is considerably more comfortable and luxurious than the standard Amtrak. The high speed rail planned for Florida seemed in line with this.

I'm a big proponent of mass transit. I've ridden Acela. I've ridden the DC Metro and had a Boston "T" party. The big difference (aka, obstical) is this. If you take a high-speed to Boston it pays off, because once there you can then get on the "T" and go where you want. Same with NY's subways, and DC's Metro. While Miami is coming along with their intercity rail, Orlando and Tampa are not. How many would leave thier car at home to go to Tampa only to have to rent a car or pay for taxis once they get there. It may benefit tourist who fly into Orlando and want to check out Busch Gardens, or the other way around for those that fly into Tampa.

It works in the big cities in the NE because they have supporting infrastructure. It will struggle mightly in Florida because we don't. Now if you can get the "Big Stimulus Package" (I think there's a porno with that title) to cover both inter-city light rail and intra-city high-speed rail then may work. But I don't think it's that big and much will go towards roads, bridges etc.

If BSP is another $700 bn, and is divided proportionally to electors then Florida would get 27/538 or about $35 bn. If you assume half that is in tax cuts and rebates, there there is $17 bn. And if you assume half that is roads and bridges then were talking $8 bn to rail (actually I think there will be many more hands out for this money and it would be far less). It'll be interesting.

[prahaboheme]

The problem with the high speed rail plan from the beginning was that it completely bypassed downtown Orlando and went from a Disney stop to the airport. If they wished to include two stops in Orlando, they should have been downtown and the airport. Disney could be serviced by conventional light/heavy rail in a larger mass transit plan that included the entire tourist corridor.

[lala67]

disney refused to support high speed rail if it had a stop near I-drive or downtown. Based on the alignment that was proposed, it would've been impossible to have a high speed rail connection to downtown. The options, if I remember correctly were airport to I-drive, then off to Tampa, or airport to disney, then off to tampa. High speed rail requires even fewer stops than commuter rail to be efficient. In looking at the various alignments, coming in south of the airport, then heading off to Disney seemed the most practical. Of course I-drive & universal didn't like this one bit. Getting Disney on board was important to the high speed rail folks.

Though, they probably could have accommodated both I-drive area, the airport and Disney. But none of the players really wanted that, it was an either or thing to them. There still might be hope for high speed rail in the future though, I think it's more feasible in FL, especially linking south florida to orlando to tampa.

[demon]

I'm a big proponent of mass transit. I've ridden Acela. I've ridden the DC Metro and had a Boston "T" party. The big difference (aka, obstical) is this. If you take a high-speed to Boston it pays off, because once there you can then get on the "T" and go where you want. Same with NY's subways, and DC's Metro. While Miami is coming along with their intercity rail, Orlando and Tampa are not. How many would leave thier car at home to go to Tampa only to have to rent a car or pay for taxis once they get there. It may benefit tourist who fly into Orlando and want to check out Busch Gardens, or the other way around for those that fly into Tampa.

It works in the big cities in the NE because they have supporting infrastructure. It will struggle mightly in Florida because we don't. Now if you can get the "Big Stimulus Package" (I think there's a porno with that title) to cover both inter-city light rail and intra-city high-speed rail then may work. But I don't think it's that big and much will go towards roads, bridges etc.

If BSP is another $700 bn, and is divided proportionally to electors then Florida would get 27/538 or about $35 bn. If you assume half that is in tax cuts and rebates, there there is $17 bn. And if you assume half that is roads and bridges then were talking $8 bn to rail (actually I think there will be many more hands out for this money and it would be far less). It'll be interesting.

My question is: Would density follow if we built rail?

I'm a big proponent of mass transit. I've ridden Acela. I've ridden the DC Metro and had a Boston "T" party. The big difference (aka, obstical) is this. If you take a high-speed to Boston it pays off, because once there you can then get on the "T" and go where you want. Same with NY's subways, and DC's Metro. While Miami is coming along with their intercity rail, Orlando and Tampa are not. How many would leave thier car at home to go to Tampa only to have to rent a car or pay for taxis once they get there. It may benefit tourist who fly into Orlando and want to check out Busch Gardens, or the other way around for those that fly into Tampa.

It works in the big cities in the NE because they have supporting infrastructure. It will struggle mightly in Florida because we don't. Now if you can get the "Big Stimulus Package" (I think there's a porno with that title) to cover both inter-city light rail and intra-city high-speed rail then may work. But I don't think it's that big and much will go towards roads, bridges etc.

If BSP is another $700 bn, and is divided proportionally to electors then Florida would get 27/538 or about $35 bn. If you assume half that is in tax cuts and rebates, there there is $17 bn. And if you assume half that is roads and bridges then were talking $8 bn to rail (actually I think there will be many more hands out for this money and it would be far less). It'll be interesting.

My question is: Would density follow if we built rail?

[Jaybee]

Well, look to Charlotte for that answer. Slightly smaller region...

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_cha_2008-08a.htm

[neon9]

I can't help but think we missed our chances with light rail or whatever. The existing buses are getting scarcer and more crowded, and all government agencies are running out of money. ENR has articles out this week about state DOT's postponing projects and the federal highway highway trust fund running out of money...again. I'm beginning to think we won't even get this commuter train working.

In 1917 there were more than 70k streetcars in the US. There were cars powered by mules, electricity, compressed air...Now we can't even run a few diesel commuter trains between Orlando and Debary....

edit: so in short, how is anything going to get funding right now? Plus, gas is cheap again. Don't worry.

[Boomer136]

I can't help but think we missed our chances with light rail or whatever. The existing buses are getting scarcer and more crowded, and all government agencies are running out of money. ENR has articles out this week about state DOT's postponing projects and the federal highway highway trust fund running out of money...again. I'm beginning to think we won't even get this commuter train working.

In 1917 there were more than 70k streetcars in the US. There were cars powered by mules, electricity, compressed air...Now we can't even run a few diesel commuter trains between Orlando and Debary....

edit: so in short, how is anything going to get funding right now? Plus, gas is cheap again. Don't worry.

I understand that the Obama team is looking at infrastructure stimulus, and rail is part of that. It's interesting the Charlotte folks are asking the same questions about keeping up with operating costs as well as funds for expansion.

( http://www.charlotteobserver.com/local/story/394843.html )

[JRS1]

I can't help but think we missed our chances with light rail or whatever. The existing buses are getting scarcer and more crowded, and all government agencies are running out of money. ENR has articles out this week about state DOT's postponing projects and the federal highway highway trust fund running out of money...again. I'm beginning to think we won't even get this commuter train working.

In 1917 there were more than 70k streetcars in the US. There were cars powered by mules, electricity, compressed air...Now we can't even run a few diesel commuter trains between Orlando and Debary....

edit: so in short, how is anything going to get funding right now? Plus, gas is cheap again. Don't worry.

its a mixed bag, b/c if I'm not mistaken, I thought LRT in 1997 was a line from downtown to I-drive ala I-4. correct me if I'm wrong. if expansion would've meant lines to the east and west and to Altamonte (which I think was part of the plan, or am I thinking of the Lexus Lanes ala Mobility 20/20), then we did miss out big time.