NoDa (N Davidson St Arts District) Projects

[nicholas]

I drive by the Amelie's apartment building several times a week...the proportions do not look good in person.  It just goes on and on and on without any balconies or anything to break up the monotony.  Maybe the finished product will look better (somehow) but if the siding mostly looks like what's currently on the Amelie's facing side then it will look terrible.

[CLT Development]

52 minutes ago, nicholas said:

I drive by the Amelie's apartment building several times a week...the proportions do not look good in person.  It just goes on and on and on without any balconies or anything to break up the monotony.  Maybe the finished product will look better (somehow) but if the siding mostly looks like what's currently on the Amelie's facing side then it will look terrible.

I think it'll start to shape up. There are actually balconies, and I think they'll be light-colored, to contrast the black on black, and then they plan a rail of local grasses, and pollinator flowers, that will break up the facade. I look at it everyday of the week, I'm starting to appreciate it's look, and the brickwork is awesome.

 

Edited March 24 by CLT Development

[kermit]

1) Hurray, I am very glad to see a MUCH needed bike project get built!

2) Help me understand how a half a mile of cycle track (which goes through ONE intersection) can cost $25 million per mile to build and take three years. I understand construction cost inflation is high. But really, $25million for a mile of cycle track on an existing roadway????? WTF? How is this not a two day project?

[tozmervo]

26 minutes ago, kermit said:

1) Hurray, I am very glad to see a MUCH needed bike project get built!

2) Help me understand how a half a mile of cycle track (which goes through ONE intersection) can cost $25 million per mile to build and take three years. I understand construction cost inflation is high. But really, $25million for a mile of cycle track on an existing roadway????? WTF? How is this not a two day project?

That does seem really high, but presumably a lot of that is in the sidewalks and perhaps lighting upgrades (similar to what they did on South Tryon over 277 years back). There's only sidewalk on one side of Mattheson today. For the cycle track, maybe there's a more meaningful barrier being included? 

[CLT Development]

6 hours ago, tozmervo said:

That does seem really high, but presumably a lot of that is in the sidewalks and perhaps lighting upgrades (similar to what they did on South Tryon over 277 years back). There's only sidewalk on one side of Mattheson today. For the cycle track, maybe there's a more meaningful barrier being included? 

I would imagine this includes the ramp that goes down to Cullman Avenue, which is going to be hugely expensive. 

[kermit]

15 hours ago, CLT Development said:

I would imagine this includes the ramp that goes down to Cullman Avenue, which is going to be hugely expensive. 

OK, this would make the $5,000 per foot price for a bike track somewhat more reasonable.

I do wonder if we are spending our bike infrastructure money wisely. Seems like its really just being used on spotty big-ticket items (eg uptown track, Belk ped bridge and this)  and we are still left with a disjointed network (no cross-Charlotte). I do see how this particular segment is a critical and necessary piece of the puzzle though, so I am not sure what I think.

Edited April 10 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

[3397char]

Pretty sure this price is for XCLT Segment 5 on Matheson Ave only (Jordan PL Segment 5 and Segment 6 both already built)

Here is the design as of 2019 (I dont think it has changed)

Matheson Ave Bridge site plan 2019.pdf

Really small stuff in this detail, but note that this is a full resurfacing and re-imagining of Mastheson Bridge.  From 1 south side to north:

1. 9 ft wide sidewalk; 2-way traffic
2. 2-way cycletrack
3. road diet reduction down to 1 car lane in each direction
4. 1-way cycletrack westbound

They will build higher and more robust bridge walls and better lighting for safety.

The 2-way cycletrack will be the XCLT.  It will run up Jordan Pl and then cross Matheson bridge, and then make a turn down Chick Godley Rd to follow Little Sugar Creek. and eventually cross the railroad spur to get to future Cullman Ave Park/Queen's Park.   I assume they are installing a flashing light or similar at Chick Godley Rd?

Although XCLT turns at Chick Godley Rd, it also extends down to N Tryon St and connects to dedicate bike lanes on N Tryon

There will also be ped and bike  street crossings for Matheson Ave that connects Jordan Pl to Yadkin Ave. 

[3397char]

The City made Kaleido Apts build section 6 when they bridged Sugar Creek to get to their parcel.  But to my knowledge, there is no public plan announced yet to cross teh rail spur.  The railroad has fought the at-grade crossing which is unbelievably stupid considering how infrequently that rail spur is used.   So we will probably get some sort of massive spiral ramp on both sides to gain 25ft to cross the spur 

edit:  Estimated completion date for Segment 6 (Matheson Ave to East Craighead St is now 2Q 2028)  The two major barriers are the rail spur mentioned above and bridging a Little Sugar Creek tributary to build out Philemon Ave connection.   It does appear to still be in the design phase:

https://www.charlottenc.gov/Growth-and-Development/Projects/XCLT/XCLT-Matheson-to-Craighead

 

Segment 7 (from Craighead to N Tryon St) just went out for bid and will be completed 4Q 2025

https://www.charlottenc.gov/Growth-and-Development/Projects/XCLT/XCLTCraighead-to-Tryon

Edited April 12 by 3397char

[RANYC]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:55 PM, kermit said:

OK, this would make the $5,000 per foot price for a bike track somewhat more reasonable.

I do wonder if we are spending our bike infrastructure money wisely. Seems like it’s really just being used on spotty big-ticket items (eg uptown track, Belk ped bridge and this)  and we are still left with a disjointed network (no cross-Charlotte). I do see how this particular segment is a critical and necessary piece of the puzzle though, so I am not sure what I think.

I share your concerns of spotty, vanity projects that still are far from making biking a form of very practical, cohesive, and widely accessible mobility. 

[nicholas]

4 minutes ago, 3397char said:

The City made Kaleido Apts build section 6 when they bridged Sugar Creek to get to their parcel.  But to my knowledge, there is no public plan announced yet to cross teh rail spur.  The railroad has fought the at-grade crossing which is unbelievably stupid considering how infrequently that rail spur is used.   So we will probably get some sort of massive spiral ramp on both sides to gain 25ft to cross the spur

Isn't that spur basically just used to turn around the Amtrak?

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, nicholas said:

Isn't that spur basically just used to turn around the Amtrak?

There is a significant chance the Red Line will use those tracks

[nicholas]

Also.  If the plan all along was to run the trail up Jordan Pl, along Matheson, and over to Kaleido, I don't really understand why it was designed to head back towards Brevard before turning onto Jordan Pl.  Probably should have just stayed on N Davidson till it got to Jordan Pl.  Especially since it doesn't even go directly past the 25th St station (although the regular 25th St sidewalks provide a more than adequate connection).

Edited April 12 by nicholas

[3397char]

33 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I share your concerns of spotty, vanity projects that still are far from making biking a form of very practical, cohesive, and widely accessible mobility. 

This is a part of the Cross Charlotte Trail.  Not spotty at all. It is a key link in a 30+ mile continuous path. 

19 minutes ago, nicholas said:

Also.  If the plan all along was to run the trail up Jordan Pl, along Matheson, and over to Kaleido, I don't really understand why it was designed to head back towards Brevard before turning onto Jordan Pl.  Probably should have just stayed on N Davidson till it got to Jordan Pl.  Especially since it doesn't even go directly past the 25th St station (although the regular 25th St sidewalks provide a more than adequate connection).

Fair question.  I suppose they sacrificed a more direct route to instead follow the creek more and thus a less car intensive. ped friendly, natural setting.  But conversely, that begs the question of why did they not just cross N Davidson at Cordelia park and follow Sugar Creek through all of this  25th St Station area?

[3397char]

1 hour ago, nicholas said:

Isn't that spur basically just used to turn around the Amtrak?

It is a really long spur: it runs along Atando, then along N Graham, then along Sugar Creek through Derita and then up Statesville Rd.  There it meets another Norfolk Southern Line, so really more of a connector than a spur.

But in terms of usage I think only a handful deliveries a week as most of the customers on this route are long gone.  But if it has future plans like the Red Line (another poster said this, which I did not know) then I can see why they are trying to preserve it to some extent.  But it already has around a dozen at-grade crossings in really tight areas, including Tryon St just 100 feet away from the Cross Charlotte trail.   Somehow making this line higher speed in this area is a pipe dream.

Edited April 12 by 3397char

[kermit]

At the risk of digressing, here is more detail than anyone needs on the Atando 'spur': (I don't believe it is technically a spur since it was originally the start of the Atlantic, Tennessee and Ohio (ATANDO) railway (it only got built as far as Satesville before bankruptcy)

• The 'spur' is the only currently active connector from the NS main line (the leased NCRR)  to the NS O-Line which goes to Winston-Salem and on to Virginia and DC. This line is largely unused at the moment, but NS has refused to sell it (thus the problems w the Red Line), since they use it as negotiating leverage on their leased main line on the NCRR. Other than negotiating leverage, there is very little probability of the O-line ever being used for more freight than moves on it currently. The O-Line could potentially be used for Charlotte-Winston intercity rail as well (NCDOT applied for a route planning grant for it, but did not receive it. They said they would try again)
• NS has a loose policy of not permitting more at-grade crossings of their tracks. This is driven by insurance/risk management, and also by their desire to preserve these particular tracks as a (theoretically) possible replacement main line.
• The O-Line tracks originally connected to the NS main in uptown by traveling alongside Graham St, through the middle of Camp North End and then to the ADM facility at the edge of Uptown (see first diagram below). This trip involves crossing the CSX tracks at grade. NS stooped using these tracks 10+ years ago, to reduce conflicts with CSX and track traffic at the ADM facility. The ARRA track improvement grants from 2009 funded putting the CSX tracks into a ditch and running them under both the O-Line and the NS main. But CSX decided the separation was not necessary so the money was moved elsewhere, so the conflict between CSX and two NS lines remains.
• Because of the near-abandonment (NS still owns them) of the O-Line tracks from Atando into uptown, and the conflicts in Camp Northend, CSX and ADM running the Red Line down the Atando spur to take the roundabout route to Gateway Station has been discussed. This is not to say the choice is definite, but there is reason enough to assume the tracks may be used for many more trains than present.  There is a set of passenger by-pass tracks through the NS yard that have been designed (and almost funded by the ARRA grants) that would make the Atando route to Gateway faster than it currently appears.
• Gateway station tracks were originally designed to have a platform on the far side (the I-77 side) of the NS tracks for Red Line trains. I am not sure it this platform is still in the planning stages, but if the Atando spur is not used to get Red Line trains into uptown, a new crossover would need to be built on the NS main for Red Line trains to reach the existing platform. This will be a big PITA, will irritate NS, and will also interfere with intercity trains. (see second diagram below)
• Should the Red Line run on the Atando spur, I suspect CATS would rebuild the bridge / culvert that Little Sugar Creek runs through under the tracks. There would be opportunity for an underpass for the trail (just like on the LSC Greenway in Midtown. It would certainly flood all the time, but would probably be a better option than a stupid spiral bridge)

 

Gateway Station Closeup

Edited April 13 by kermit

[kermit]

1 hour ago, 3397char said:

Really small stuff in this detail, but note that this is a full resurfacing and re-imagining of Mastheson Bridge.  From 1 south side to north

Thanks so much for the clarification. This certainly makes the budget more logical. It also makes clear that my concerns are not really driven by the project itself, rather there were driven by how the press (in this case a Joe Bruno tweet) present the project. When discussing these projects we really should be clearer that substantial portions of these costs are going to maintaining car culture (in this case resurfacing all the lanes of the bridge), rather than 100% going towards bike infrastructure.

I was also unaware that the pieces of the Cross Charlotte trail were already complete on both side of the bridge. I am completely on board with this project now.

[videtur quam contuor]

I wonder if Long's Monument company, on Graham at Atando and on that rail connector, uses rail for their materials? They occasionally provide monuments of substantial size. These for civic and other purposes in addition to memorial purposes.

[3397char]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Thanks so much for the clarification. This certainly makes the budget more logical. It also makes clear that my concerns are not really driven by the project itself, rather there were driven by how the press (in this case a Joe Bruno tweet) present the project. When discussing these projects we really should be clearer that substantial portions of these costs are going to maintaining car culture (in this case resurfacing all the lanes of the bridge), rather than 100% going towards bike infrastructure.

I was also unaware that the pieces of the Cross Charlotte trail were already complete on both side of the bridge. I am completely on board with this project now.

This project is only phase 1 of the Matheson Ave road diet.  The City is also going to hit Jordan Place to The Plaza real soon in a separate project that is already approved.  (Separate money source from the Cross Charlotte trail)

https://www.charlottenc.gov/Growth-and-Development/Projects/Matheson-Conversion

This will fully bike connect Tryon Hills, NoDa, Optimist Park, Villa Heights and Plaza Shamrock with dedicated bikeways. And once completed Matheson Ave will no longer be a 4 line drag strop

 

Not funded yet is the Plaza and Matheson Ave intersection redesign which will extend this connectivity into Plaza/Shamrock better linking Country Club Heights and Midwood as well. (but this project is more focused on fixing the Shamrock Road meander)

Shamrock/Plaza/Matheson Intersection Redesign Study

[3397char]

1 hour ago, videtur quam contuor said:

I wonder if Long's Monument company, on Graham at Atando and on that rail connector, uses rail for their materials? They occasionally provide monuments of substantial size. These for civic and other purposes in addition to memorial purposes.

The only functioning siding track along Atando is for the largest scrap metal company.  And there are none in use along Graham St.  Everywhere else they have completely pulled up the track or it is clearly in extreme disrepair. Monument Co is probably paying for intermodal transfer from the rail yard. 

[nicholas]

4 hours ago, RANYC said:

I share your concerns of spotty, vanity projects that still are far from making biking a form of very practical, cohesive, and widely accessible mobility. 

The reality is that it's going to be spotty for a while because we're really far behind on bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure.   It's (very) slowly getting better, but unfortunately there's relatively little money going towards these projects, and the general public pushback makes it hard to reach the tipping point of widespread use due to the slow rate of construction.  We have to take what we can get, and continue pushing for more.

I suspect a couple branches off of the Rail Trail, especially down Summit and Tremont, would generally garner widespread support (and maybe even some corporate funding) because everyone sees how active those streets already are.  But most people see Matheson as it currently is (an automotive sewer) and until people walking/biking becomes a ubiquitous sight, it is hard to shift the mindset of people along that corridor.

[j-man]

This might end up being my favorite Noda apartment new build. At least for the exterior being mostly brick and having a nice sharp look yet having an aged look. 

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, j-man said:

This might end up being my favorite Noda apartment new build. At least for the exterior being mostly brick and having a nice sharp look yet having an aged look. 

Big time agree. Great massing. SO MANY WINDOWS>

[3397char]

On 4/12/2024 at 3:36 PM, nicholas said:

The reality is that it's going to be spotty for a while because we're really far behind on bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure.   It's (very) slowly getting better, but unfortunately there's relatively little money going towards these projects, and the general public pushback makes it hard to reach the tipping point of widespread use due to the slow rate of construction.  We have to take what we can get, and continue pushing for more.

I suspect a couple branches off of the Rail Trail, especially down Summit and Tremont, would generally garner widespread support (and maybe even some corporate funding) because everyone sees how active those streets already are.  But most people see Matheson as it currently is (an automotive sewer) and until people walking/biking becomes a ubiquitous sight, it is hard to shift the mindset of people along that corridor.

well said!

[KJHburg]

SuCre, NoNoDa. Sugaw etc I am not sure what we are calling this area around the Sugar Creek station.  

What's up with the stalled project next to the Sugar Creek LYNX parking deck on Raleigh St? 

Also looks like work is being done to extend Philemon and the missing piece between the Amaze apartments and the Grubb apartments.  

The Pass apartment garage is up and I had not seen that.  

Like those Trailside apartments on Craighead.