Hurricane Katrina - the aftermath

[RiverwoodCLT]

I may be wrong here but it is my understanding that NO was not always below sea level, that it sits on a salt dome that is receeding and causing the city to sink.  Is this correct?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have lived on the Texas Gulf coast. The problem down there is the have a type of soil call gumbo. Hard when dry and sticky like glue when wet. Went pumping water out of the ground the land on top sinks. I have seen water covering a field

in Baytown, Texas from this practice. NO has the same type of soil.

What happens is when water is pump out at a high rate the soil compacts down.

You can not pump water back in and raise it.

70 million dollars was cut last year from the Federal budget for NO levee system.

A private contractor was hired for $500,000.00 to study the problem.

What will be in the budget now? I don't think the 70M would had made any difference in last few days, because I don't think a project of this size would have been competed by now.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I will go out on a limb and say that global warming is about as controversial as evolution: but most scientists (virtually all with seniority and credibility) agree that they exist. I'm not saying that smoke-stacks in Essen, Germany made Katrina, but somewhere down the line we could face the reality that our impacts on this planet are impacting weather as well...

I agree with Aporkalypse (*and a brief aside: your name on here amuses the hell out of me) in that we're probably seeing a regular shift in severity of hurricane-seasons. The last 2 decades or so have been rather quiet (Hugo and Andrew aside) and suddenly in the last 3 seasons things have REALLY heated up. Global warming, if it does drastically affect hurricane seasons and severity, I don't think would so suddenly impact our seasons. I think it's a natural occurance every 3 decades. Hopefully this time will end sooner than expected. Allison, Iris, Isidore, Isabel, Jeanne, Charly, Ivan, and others, and now Katrina...

[monsoon]

Hurricanes are a safety valve for the earth's oceans. They are a cooling mechanism as heat energy stored in the water is converted to kinetic energy in the form of wind. Global warming has not created hurricanes, but it has increased the number of them and their intensity.

[flamingomonkey]

In terms of this "rebuild or not rebuild" business--

It appears that few buildings in New Orleans suffered the sort of wind/wave structural damage that buildings did in Mississippi.  The city isn't flattened, it's flooded.

So basically what you're talking about is water damage.

When I first lived in New Orleans, I lived in a house that still had a watermark on the side of the house--8 feet up--from hurricane Betsy.  That building was perfectly habitable.

I was there for the May 3rd flood in 1978 when three-fourths of the homes had water in them--some up to the roofs--and there were canoes on St. Charles Avenue.

Since then there have been numerous floods--the last one before I moved was in May, 1995, and that was even worse than the 1978 flood.

My point is--once people put up new sheetrock and new carpets, things looked just the same as before.  This time of course, most will need new roofs.

So, in terms of physical damage only, the actual "rebuilding" may not be the issue it's made out to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think this is a flood people will be able to recover from. We're talking about a month or more before the city is dried out. After that much time soaking in flood water, much of the city may have to be demolished. This may not be such a bad thing though. Parts of Chicago are built on landfill from the great fire. Landfill from the demolished buildings in N.O. could be used to raise the city above sea level. The most historic parts of the city may be able to be spared, though if the outer areas are raised, you would have a new bowl draining into the center of the city. Still, it may be a more effective barrier than a levee.

[Aporkalypse]

Actually, that's not totally correct. Most sides agree that global warming is occuring, the cause of that warming is whats being debated. Is it natural, human, or both?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, global warming is quite controversial in the scientific community. There is no concrete evidence, in fact, that the minor changes in temperature (a total increase of 0.9 deg F) over the last 140 yrs (the bulk of the increase occurring between 1900 and 1950, BTW) are anything more than normal fluctuation. Examining a long-term graph of temperatures such as that over the last 10,000 years makes it look fairly minor, well within the "background noise". There are massive discrepancies in the data as satellite and weather balloon data actually shows cooling in recent decades while only surface data shows warming. Surface data is often taken in urban areas and near airports/airstrips and may simply reflect urbanization.

Now,the THEORY behind CO2 and other greenhouse gases causing global warming does, in fact, make sense. However, there is again no evidence to show it is actually occurring or to prove causality.

For those of you suggesting that global warming does exist and is increasing frequency of hurricanes, please refer to the NOAA website and other scientific

sources as this has been studied and is unproven. Again, models have shown that it would not increase number but would increase intensity by 7-11%. However, note that the last 30 years have, with the exception of the last couple, been a very unusual historical lull in hurricane prevalence.

There is no comparison with evolution, as someone with extensive biology training I can tell you that evolution is scientifically indisputable. There is significant conflict in the academic community over global warming, the conflict over evolution is merely in the media, there is no dissent amongst serious academic biologists.

[flamingomonkey]

One thing I'm wondering, how many people will move back? While you hear plenty about the staggering numbers that are homeless, you never hear that they are also jobless. For at least a month, they will have no income, but they will still have mortgages, car payments, credit card debt, etc. They could be ruined financially. Even when they are allowed back in, they won't be able to go to work until local businesses start getting set up, if they even reopen. They could easily be looking at 6 months to a year before they get settled in again in N.O. With that in mind, if they start looking for jobs in other cities, enroll the kids in schools, how many are going to decide it's not worth going back?

[monsoon]

As I watch the suffering of the poor in NO today, I am convinced the city should not be rebuilt as it was before the hurricane. Thousands may be dead and I would not support putting so many people back into a similar sort of danger. They should simply abandon these parts of the city and relocate most people to safer ground.

[Aporkalypse]

One thing I'm wondering, how many people will move back? While you hear plenty about the staggering numbers that are homeless, you never hear that they are also jobless. For at least a month, they will have no income, but they will still have mortgages, car payments, credit card debt, etc. They could be ruined financially. Even when they are allowed back in, they won't be able to go to work until local businesses start getting set up, if they even reopen. They could easily be looking at 6 months to a year before they get settled in again in N.O. With that in mind, if they start looking for jobs in other cities, enroll the kids in schools, how many are going to decide it's not worth going back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is also what I'm afraid of. Furthermore, for the homeowners and landlords - would it be better just to take the insurance check, pay what's owed, and not rebuild? Property values may plummet, especially if neighbors don't rebuild and leave the area a wreck, so why not take the money and run? I wonder what will happen to the older but poorer parts of town. So many of the old wooden shotgun homes won't be amenable to reconstruction. Will we see them knocked down and cheap brick and siding structures in their stead?

Anyone heard how Jefferson Parish fared?

[Roadgeek]

I just have to say that I've seen some hurricanes in my time, but this one takes the cake. Living in North Carolina, I've witnessed hurricanes like Fran, Floyd, Isabel, etc. With Katrina, I'm may have not felt a thing from her, I've still taken a blow to the heart. I am very touched that so many UP forumers have aknowledged this terrible event. My thoughts and prayers are with Louisiana and the entire Gulf Coast.

[Aporkalypse]

I just have to say that I've seen some hurricanes in my time, but this one takes the cake. Living in North Carolina, I've witnessed hurricanes like Fran, Floyd, Isabel, etc. With Katrina, I'm may have not felt a thing from her, I've still taken a blow to the heart. I am very touched that so many UP forumers have aknowledged this terrible event. My thoughts and prayers are with Louisiana and the entire Gulf Coast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No place was so uniquely positioned to have a catastrophe as New Orleans and no city had as much to lose. A total flattening of Miami Beach and Miami's CBD would've just led to a modern reconstruction. New Orleans' legacy is its history, though, and you can't rebuild that. Flooding of this sort couldn't happen anywhere else in America, and Louisianans have been talking about this happening for decades. Blame the French, I guess, and blame all of us for being in denial and not seeing the need for a better system in the city. Every time it rains for a day or two you get 3 feet of water in some parts of town, people (well, IMPORTANT people) should've seen the need for better levees and pumps.

[Lunican]

I've seen a lot of comparisons on here to cities being rebuilt after devastating fires. I think that this is much worse. In the case of the fires, reconstruction can literally begin as soon as the fire is out. It is going to take a lot of time and money to just get rid of the water in the city. Disease will also become a major issue, moreso than with any fire. I think there are going to be a lot of people that are not going to return...not because they do not love the city, but they are going to make the decision based on their personal well being. Its hard to justify returning.

[csmurphy8885]

None of the areas effected will be the same. I have a friend at LSU noone can get ahold of. Talking to her parents last night...well, u can imagine. There is a fine line between coping with a dissaster, and surviveing one. People will leave. they will head inland, east, west, and unfortunatly to God. It is terrible. I want to do something, but i keep cathcing myself beotching about gas costing over 3 bucks a gallon. But my mom will sleep welll tonight. My siblings are safe. And my life is only distracted, rather than demolished. Really, what could i say?

[Snowguy716]

We have been in an unusually hurricane-poor cycle since the 1960s and we are finally seeing a resurgence.

[sleepy]

This is also what I'm afraid of.  Furthermore, for the homeowners and landlords - would it be better just to take the insurance check, pay what's owed, and not rebuild?  Property values may plummet, especially if neighbors don't rebuild and leave the area a wreck, so why not take the money and run?  I wonder what will happen to the older but poorer parts of town.  So many of the old wooden shotgun homes won't be amenable to reconstruction. Will we see them knocked down and cheap brick and siding structures in their stead? 

Anyone heard how Jefferson Parish fared?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I heard that Kenner was dry.

Yesterday, the shots of I-10 and Clearview looked submerged, but today I heard it was now dry. Parts of the eastern part of Metairie up against the 17th St. Canal flooded.

Regarding rebuilding--most of those houses have been underwater before--Hurricane Betsy, the 1978 flood, the floods in the 80's, and the 1996 flood. Probably 80% of New Orleans housing has been flooded before--many up to the roofline.

New Orleans isn't flattened like Gulfport, it's flooded. Those houses will need new carpet, sheetrock and roofs. I doubt if insurers would even write them off as total losses.

[Metroinspect.]

God bless everybody who was in Katrina path, their our alot of cities in the south that helping out really good, like Houston, Atlanta, and more, and i'm happy to hear how the Red Cross of Georgia have came up with a quarter million dolllars for the damage cause by the hurricane, and again you all are in my prayers.

[vdogg]

Looks like the looting problem is spiraling out of control.

WWLTV

Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.

[RiversideGator]

Sleepy, you are the voice of reason on this subject because you are familiar with the area and know the history of floods/hurricanes in the New Orleans area. So many people today are completely ignorant of history and, when disaster strikes, they assume that this one is worse than any before and that this kind of thing has never happened before. The truth is this city has been hit before and survived similar blows. Most of the structures we ousiders think of as classic New Orleans werent heavily damaged and are not in the flooded areas. My understanding is that the French Quarter, the Garden District and Uptown suffered only minor flooding, some wind damage and damage from fallen trees. They will be back fine. I think the issue is the lowest lying areas and these were really hard hit. But, NO will be back despite the pessimists. I hate to say it, but now is the time to be buying real estate b/c there is opportunity when others are panicking.

For more on damage to iconic New Orleans, see: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...-home-headlines

I think the temperature record tells the story itself.

I agree. It shows a smaller than one degree rise in temperature in the last 150 years at least half of which occured prior to 1940. This is hardly a chart on which to hang your hat or on which to base public policy. The truth is many "environmentalists" are really just anti-capitalist watermelons - green on the outside, but red on the inside. I also find it disturbing that liberals try to use a natural disaster to advance their flawed agenda.

[SOSaD]

Anyone who disputes the reality of global warming have obviously not been in affected areas..

[RiversideGator]

Anyone who disputes the reality of global warming have obviously not been in affected areas..

Uhh, I live in FL and have had a relative killed in a hurricane. Check your history books - very severe storms hit the US with frequency before the age of industrialisation.

[sleepy]

Sleepy, you are the voice of reason on this subject because you are familiar with the area and know the history of floods/hurricanes in the New Orleans area.  So many people today are completely ignorant of history and, when disaster strikes, they assume that this one is worse than any before and that this kind of thing has never happened before.  The truth is this city has been hit before and survived similar blows.  Most of the structures we ousiders think of as classic New Orleans werent heavily damaged and are not in the flooded areas.  My understanding is that the French Quarter, the Garden District and Uptown suffered only minor flooding, some wind damage and damage from fallen trees.  They will be back fine.  I think the issue is the lowest lying areas and these were really hard hit.  But, NO will be back despite the pessimists.  I hate to say it, but now is the time to be buying real estate b/c there is opportunity when others are panicking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While the areas hardest hit aren't the tourist areas, many but not all the areas hit are poor. Lakeview, MidCity, most of New Orleans East, and the Esplanade-City Park areas are middle-class and much of the wealthy Lakefront also got clobbered.

And many of the poor flooded neighborhoods are 100 yr. old and didn't get abandoned or bulldozed after their umpteen floods.

I've seen so many aerials from earlier floods in the 70's, 80's, and 90's that look just like the "city in a lake" aerials from today. When the water drained out, people just ripped out the sheetrock, the carpets, bought new furniture and a new car, and that was that.

I think many people are thinking that because the human disaster aspect of this storm is so terrible, the city itself is physically destroyed.

[goodbye]

I have read the many posts I missed today and agreed with many, but disagreed with several others. Obviously I'll never have the time right now to answer them all, so I'll let them go and keep watching.

I haven't noticed this aspect of Katrina's aftermath come up in quite awhile, but I feel it is very important to note. Gas prices have spiked to $5.00 in some places here in Upstate SC and many gas stations have closed up after running out of fuel. I was driving home this evening at about 9:30pm and every gas station that was open had enormous lines of waiting vehicles. Some of these stations will not have a delivery until next week. Is this a growing concern in other locales across the U.S.?

[OE-305]

I haven't noticed this aspect of Katrina's aftermath come up in quite awhile, but I feel it is very important to note.  Gas prices have spiked to $5.00 in some places here in Upstate SC and many gas stations have closed up after running out of fuel.  I was driving home this evening at about 9:30pm and every gas station that was open had enormous lines of waiting vehicles.  Some of these stations will not have a delivery until next week.  Is this a growing concern in other locales across the U.S.?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I noticed in Vegas today that gas was around $ 2.75, so it has only risen 15 cents. I suspect that price will go up tomorrow though.

[goodbye]

While the areas hardest hit aren't the tourist areas, many but not all the areas hit are poor.  Lakeview, MidCity, most of New Orleans East, and the Esplanade-City Park areas are middle-class and much of the wealthy Lakefront also got clobbered.

And many of the poor flooded neighborhoods are 100 yr. old and didn't get abandoned or bulldozed after their umpteen floods.

I've seen so many aerials from earlier floods in the 70's, 80's, and 90's that look just like the "city in a lake" aerials from today.  When the water drained out, people just ripped out the sheetrock, the carpets, bought new furniture and a new car, and that was that.

I think many people are thinking that because the human disaster aspect of this storm is so terrible, the city itself is physically destroyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most areas wouldn't consider any home which had been through a flood to be structurally safe. My greatest concern (and I have experience with this) is the dmage that water causes to foundations and wall structures, especially ones made of wood.

As for my thoughts concerning the desperate situation of NO, I base that entirely on the unique factor that the water will not recede on its own, and to get it dry again, you'll have to create another "bathtub" with water much higher than the city. I for one would not consider that a safe place to live and raise a family. I wonder what impact this may have on many business owners and their confidence in a rebuilt levee system?

[goodbye]

I noticed in Vegas today that gas was around $ 2.75, so it has only risen 15 cents.  I suspect that price will go up tomorrow though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Last night I noticed one station along I-85 in Greenville still had gas for $2.27. Tonight it is at $2.99 and rising. The crazy thing that I can't understand is the mad dash and incredibly long lines at every station. I had heard that we shouldn't all go rush to the nearest gas station, but now I think ther may be a shortage with college football this weekend and a holiday on Monday.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

"Global warming is not debatable. Look at the glaciers disappearing in Alaska, Siberia, Europe, South America, Africa. Look at the permafrost melting in Canada, Alaska, and Siberia. People's houses are sinking into the ground.

I'm not debating global warming at all... but where is this alleged glacier in Africa? Snow on top of Kilamanjaro doesn't count... imho...