PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[damus]

the bigger picture is still overshadowed by the secrecy of the developers. if they say they won't need to change much to the existing road infrastructure, they're in for a big surprise. that bridge can't handle the traffic this would draw, they covered that. but ROUTE 12 CAN CERTAINLY NOT HANDLE THAT MUCH TRAFFIC. the city of norwich can't handle the traffic.

and if this place is as big as disney world, the highways would just crumble. and you can say goodbye to all those small towns as they become major roadways to service this monstrosity.

Anyone here ever been through route 12 on the Norwich side? it's narrow, winding, and much of it is surrounded by old houses. There is no way they can do much to improve that road as it's surrounded on both sides by historic Victorian era houses. Hopefully even if this does pass the state kills the deal, or Utopia screws up and the town simply forcloses.

[HartfordTycoon]

Not necessarily. Look at the smaller amusements that were in Florida before Walt Disney World became the mecca it is. They are mostly gone now - overwhelemd by their neighbor. People just don't venture that far, so unless you were close, you died.

On the other hand, if Utopis builds, and is quite successful, why do you think the Mohegans or the Pequots won't also build? How do you control all of that? Sure, the Utopia project may not be enough to overwhelm, but if you have three parks in the smae area, they very well could.

The Mohegans and the Pequots will MOST DEFINATELY build. Foxwoods is expanding now and building on the resort aspect of the operation and bringing in MGM Grand. The Mohegans will follow suit. New London is getting a national U.S. Coast Gaurd Museum and Mystic is already a national gem. I guess my point is I understand the opposition, I understand that it seems like a stretch. In my opinion it's really not though. I mean you're talking about building a large attraction/theme park/movie studios/performing arts school/resort type of thing within 5 to 10 minutes of 2 of the largest resorts in the Northeast. There is a lot more to the casinos than gambling. The resorts do good business, not to mention the clubs, restaurants, and concerts. There is a lot to do in the area an I believe it could be turned into a national resort area. That's the bottom line with me. No one is changing my mind. Everyone keeps arguing this thing in a circle. OK I think it will work and be good for the region and that it won't destroy the area. That's my take. You guys feel differently. Big deal. It's just one of those things. I think I will be on the winning side of this and have a big "I told you so" waiting for all of the doubters in a few years.

[drc72]

CT is not a tourist destination. it never will attract the tourists that FLA or CA attract. it currently probably gets far less tourists than RI (LI sound beaches just don't cut it, and i grew up on the sound), and let's not talk about MA and the cape and 6 flags.

Give me a break! RI is not all that. Yeah their beaches are nicer than CT, but I think I would rather go to FL than RI if I'm gonna take a beach vacation. I never once considered RI a top vacation destination and I never will. I don't see anything special there. Seriously people in Mass and RI think CT is just some boring place that people pass through.

[runawayjim]

The Mohegans and the Pequots will MOST DEFINATELY build. Foxwoods is expanding now and building on the resort aspect of the operation and bringing in MGM Grand. The Mohegans will follow suit. New London is getting a national U.S. Coast Gaurd Museum and Mystic is already a national gem. I guess my point is I understand the opposition, I understand that it seems like a stretch. In my opinion it's really not though. I mean you're talking about building a large attraction/theme park/movie studios/performing arts school/resort type of thing within 5 to 10 minutes of 2 of the largest resorts in the Northeast. There is a lot more to the casinos than gambling. The resorts do good business, not to mention the clubs, restaurants, and concerts. There is a lot to do in the area an I believe it could be turned into a national resort area. That's the bottom line with me. No one is changing my mind. Everyone keeps arguing this thing in a circle. OK I think it will work and be good for the region and that it won't destroy the area. That's my take. You guys feel differently. Big deal. It's just one of those things. I think I will be on the winning side of this and have a big "I told you so" waiting for all of the doubters in a few years.

so you don't think if that part of the state becomes a "resort area" that it'll basically kill the quality of life for anyone who lives there? look at orlando... outside the resort areas, it's a trashy city. is that what you want for the people who enjoy the peace and quiet they currently have living in all those small towns in SE CT?

there is a lot more to the casinos than gambling, but the other stuff doesn't get nearly as much attention as the gambling traffic. yeah, the clubs and hotels and concerts attract people, but those are mostly there to get people into the building to gamble. if people are going to travel a long ways to gamble, they don't go to foxwoods or mohegan sun. they go to vegas or atlantic city, real gambling destinations, both of which offer more than foxwoods or mohegan (which are frankly boring compared to vegas).

the only thing about this whole thing that's even remotely good is the performing arts school (although it's not like the best performing arts schools in the country aren't less than 3 hours away... NYU, juliard, berklee, hartt).

Give me a break! RI is not all that. Yeah their beaches are nicer than CT, but I think I would rather go to FL than RI if I'm gonna take a beach vacation. I never once considered RI a top vacation destination and I never will. I don't see anything special there. Seriously people in Mass and RI think CT is just some boring place that people pass through.

tell that to all the people from out of state who spend good portions of their summers on our beaches.

i never said it was a top vacation destination, i said it gets a lot more tourists than CT. it doesn't get nearly as many as the cape and the islands, but the cape is a lot bigger.

i don't know if you've ever read any of my other posts, but i am originally from CT and spent most of my life there. and even then, i knew that RI got a lot more tourists for the beaches than CT gets tourists.

[HartfordTycoon]

Give me a break! RI is not all that. Yeah their beaches are nicer than CT, but I think I would rather go to FL than RI if I'm gonna take a beach vacation. I never once considered RI a top vacation destination and I never will. I don't see anything special there. Seriously people in Mass and RI think CT is just some boring place that people pass through.

Exactly. Most people will not come to New England just to see the beach. Everyone else on the East Coast has their own Coastline with beaches that are pretty much on par with one another, and extremely sub-par if compared to more tropical beaches. People need an attraction to get them here. I think this could be that attraction. I don't claim to know everything. I just want to give this thing a chance and see if Joe G. can follow through. If he can't then we deal with that, I just have not seen anything indicating that he won't be able to pull it off such as lack of funding or feasibility. All of our elected leaders in state office are pretty much for this on the left, right, and in between. Most people are for this. That's what will show at the polls.

so you don't think if that part of the state becomes a "resort area" that it'll basically kill the quality of life for anyone who lives there? look at orlando... outside the resort areas, it's a trashy city. is that what you want for the people who enjoy the peace and quiet they currently have living in all those small towns in SE CT?

there is a lot more to the casinos than gambling, but the other stuff doesn't get nearly as much attention as the gambling traffic. yeah, the clubs and hotels and concerts attract people, but those are mostly there to get people into the building to gamble. if people are going to travel a long ways to gamble, they don't go to foxwoods or mohegan sun. they go to vegas or atlantic city, real gambling destinations, both of which offer more than foxwoods or mohegan (which are frankly boring compared to vegas).

the only thing about this whole thing that's even remotely good is the performing arts school (although it's not like the best performing arts schools in the country aren't less than 3 hours away... NYU, juliard, berklee, hartt).

tell that to all the people from out of state who spend good portions of their summers on our beaches.

i never said it was a top vacation destination, i said it gets a lot more tourists than CT. it doesn't get nearly as many as the cape and the islands, but the cape is a lot bigger.

i don't know if you've ever read any of my other posts, but i am originally from CT and spent most of my life there. and even then, i knew that RI got a lot more tourists for the beaches than CT gets tourists.

Jim, I applaud you for recognizing how great an institution the Hartt School at UHart is. However there is no performing arts schools in this area (SE CT) and you really can't oversaturate that market IMO. OK so you are saying that there is not enough to do to compare it to Vegas, I won't even mention AC because we are on track to surpass their gaming revenue within 1 or 2 years. Isn't that kind of the point of diversifying the attractions? Isn't that why Utopia is so great along with North Stonington Studios? To me it is, because it finishes the puzzle down there.

[runawayjim]

Exactly. Most people will not come to New England just to see the beach. Everyone else on the East Coast has their own Coastline with beaches that are pretty much on par with one another, and extremely sub-par if compared to more tropical beaches. People need an attraction to get them here. I think this could be that attraction. I don't claim to know everything. I just want to give this thing a chance and see if Joe G. can follow through. If he can't then we deal with that, I just have not seen anything indicating that he won't be able to pull it off such as lack of funding or feasibility. All of our elected leaders in state office are pretty much for this on the left, right, and in between. Most people are for this. That's what will show at the polls.

i find it hard to believe that this will attract people from farther away than other northeastern states (people who already travel to vacation on the cape).

the question still remains... what good will this do for the people who live in the vicinity of this place? i seriously think their quality of life will go straight down the tubes. what the casinos haven't killed already will be taken care of by utopia. and soon after this place goes up, we'll see homes being taken by eminent domain to build highways and exits and widen rt 12 so that the traffic can be handled.

[HartfordTycoon]

i find it hard to believe that this will attract people from farther away than other northeastern states (people who already travel to vacation on the cape).

the question still remains... what good will this do for the people who live in the vicinity of this place? i seriously think their quality of life will go straight down the tubes. what the casinos haven't killed already will be taken care of by utopia. and soon after this place goes up, we'll see homes being taken by eminent domain to build highways and exits and widen rt 12 so that the traffic can be handled.

Think about the high paying blue collar jobs as machinists and techs. Think about the white collar jobs of IT, Marketing, and mechanical engineering. This will create a lot of GREAT jobs. Not just hospitality jobs. That's a definate advantage to the incumbant population. They will recieve preferential treatment. They may have had to move to find work anyway. This will enable a lot of people to plan on staying for longer and maybe keep some of the younger people in the area for good.

[damus]

Good news on the anti-utopia front: betweent the two local papers there is one pro-utopia letter and 4 against it. Looks like other people who really care about the town are mobilizing.

My pamphlet needs to be looked at by family, neighbors, and I'll also try to run it by the local liquor store owner (person outside my social ciricle who is opposed and reasoned) to see what they think before I print a ton of them and go out delivering them. My goal is to maintain a civil tone and just present the facts. A lot of the anti-utopia people around here get angry (justifyably) and it makes them look like fools when they argue with people who aren't so emotionally attached to the town. Case in point: some rediculous myspace site made by a high school clasmate of my cousin's dedicated to "getting rid of that fat f*ck joe gentile" which had a banner of the confederate flag on top... this stupid kid thinks that people are going to listen to what he says when the first thing they see is that flag.... moron. Good thing he's hiding away on myspace and not out in public acting like that.

[HartfordTycoon]

Good news on the anti-utopia front: betweent the two local papers there is one pro-utopia letter and 4 against it. Looks like other people who really care about the town are mobilizing.

My pamphlet needs to be looked at by family, neighbors, and I'll also try to run it by the local liquor store owner (person outside my social ciricle who is opposed and reasoned) to see what they think before I print a ton of them and go out delivering them. My goal is to maintain a civil tone and just present the facts. A lot of the anti-utopia people around here get angry (justifyably) and it makes them look like fools when they argue with people who aren't so emotionally attached to the town. Case in point: some rediculous myspace site made by a high school clasmate of my cousin's dedicated to "getting rid of that fat f*ck joe gentile" which had a banner of the confederate flag on top... this stupid kid thinks that people are going to listen to what he says when the first thing they see is that flag.... moron. Good thing he's hiding away on myspace and not out in public acting like that.

I've read the letters on the site at the day and feel as if those opposing the project are being NIMBY's. There main reason for not wanting it is because they just don't like it. I don't think that's a very good reason not to want what could be a new economic engine for the area. I really think it should win approval fairly easily, but we will surely see in exactly 2 weeks now.

[runawayjim]

I've read the letters on the site at the day and feel as if those opposing the project are being NIMBY's. There main reason for not wanting it is because they just don't like it. I don't think that's a very good reason not to want what could be a new economic engine for the area. I really think it should win approval fairly easily, but we will surely see in exactly 2 weeks now.

i don't like it because it has the real potential to destroy the quality of life for those who live there and for the likelihood of seriously insane traffic problems.

[HartfordTycoon]

i don't like it because it has the real potential to destroy the quality of life for those who live there and for the likelihood of seriously insane traffic problems.

That's a valid concern, but in my opinion is not a good reason to oppose the project outright. My main frustration is that it seems as if the vast majority of people both in support and opposition of Utopia are convinced it will be a huge success. Whether you think that very success will create more sprawl and traffic or more jobs and revenue, most seem to think it can and will work if approved. Based on that assessment I would say that both camps have valid points and will be correct in their respective predictions to an extent. My problem is that on both sides, particularly the anti-Utopia side, they are not even discussing the real and reasonable concerns of the other side.

[runawayjim]

That's a valid concern, but in my opinion is not a good reason to oppose the project outright. My main frustration is that it seems as if the vast majority of people both in support and opposition of Utopia are convinced it will be a huge success. Whether you think that very success will create more sprawl and traffic or more jobs and revenue, most seem to think it can and will work if approved. Based on that assessment I would say that both camps have valid points and will be correct in their respective predictions to an extent. My problem is that on both sides, particularly the anti-Utopia side, they are not even discussing the real and reasonable concerns of the other side.

i don't have a problem with CT becoming a resort destination. i don't think it will, even with utopia.

i realize it can provide many jobs for the people in that area and attract young people there as well, but does that outweigh the quality of life problems for the people who live there and already work and don't plan on leaving their current jobs? for many, money isn't everything. even if this place can provide them with similar work for more pay, they might be happy in their current jobs and leaving isn't easy. it brings in more tax money.

i understand this can do a whole lot for the state as a whole, but it could be awful for those who live in that area, who i think matter more than the rest of the state.

[HartfordTycoon]

i realize it can provide many jobs for the people in that area and attract young people there as well, but does that outweigh the quality of life problems for the people who live there and already work and don't plan on leaving their current jobs?

IMO Absolutely. I think the heart of the issue here really is this question that you just asked. I think many people will end up saying yes, it's worth it. I mean I have a job now but would leave for the right position somewhere else. I would gladly personally join Utopia's team in a marketing capacity even though I currently live and work in Greater Hartford. I could see doing that commute for the right gig.

[runawayjim]

IMO Absolutely. I think the heart of the issue here really is this question that you just asked. I think many people will end up saying yes, it's worth it. I mean I have a job now but would leave for the right position somewhere else. I would gladly personally join Utopia's team in a marketing capacity even though I currently live and work in Greater Hartford. I could see doing that commute for the right gig.

well, i don't think you or i are in the position to answer that question. i think the only one on this board who can is damus, and he seems to have intelligently decided that it's not a good idea. i know people who live and work down there. they won't change jobs (mainly because it won't offer the kinds of jobs they want, mechanical engineering), but it will greatly affect their commute to work.

i think before anyone can really truly decide how much it will affect the quality of life, gentile needs to explain how he's going to deal with the traffic problems. if that means eminent domain, the project needs to be shutdown immediately. the greater good will not be served by taking people's homes to build more roads and highways for this pie in the sky project. he also needs to explain the exact extent to his plans, which no one seems to know about. if it's true what damus has said about it being expanded from norwich to waterford to the RI line, then i think there will be some SERIOUS quality of life reduction for the people who have lived in that quiet part of the state for their entire lives. if built solely in waterford, new london, groton, or norwich, the quality of life won't be hurt by all that much, but this will create sprawl of the worst kind and probably require the destruction of woodlands, which is by no means a good thing. it'll turn SE CT into another ffld county, which, in my opinion, is the absolute worst part of CT for both the sprawl and the snobs who live there with their SUV's (about 1 per household, i think it's required there or something).

i'd have to be paid double what i make now to leave my current job. while it pays a bit less than the average for this type of position, the work environment outweighs everything else.

[HartfordTycoon]

well, i don't think you or i are in the position to answer that question. i think the only one on this board who can is damus, and he seems to have intelligently decided that it's not a good idea. i know people who live and work down there. they won't change jobs (mainly because it won't offer the kinds of jobs they want, mechanical engineering), but it will greatly affect their commute to work.

i think before anyone can really truly decide how much it will affect the quality of life, gentile needs to explain how he's going to deal with the traffic problems. if that means eminent domain, the project needs to be shutdown immediately. the greater good will not be served by taking people's homes to build more roads and highways for this pie in the sky project. he also needs to explain the exact extent to his plans, which no one seems to know about. if it's true what damus has said about it being expanded from norwich to waterford to the RI line, then i think there will be some SERIOUS quality of life reduction for the people who have lived in that quiet part of the state for their entire lives. if built solely in waterford, new london, groton, or norwich, the quality of life won't be hurt by all that much, but this will create sprawl of the worst kind and probably require the destruction of woodlands, which is by no means a good thing. it'll turn SE CT into another ffld county, which, in my opinion, is the absolute worst part of CT for both the sprawl and the snobs who live there with their SUV's (about 1 per household, i think it's required there or something).

i'd have to be paid double what i make now to leave my current job. while it pays a bit less than the average for this type of position, the work environment outweighs everything else.

I'm sorry did you say that people you know are looking for mechanical engineering jobs and won't be able to find them at Utopia? I hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying because there will be thousands of those type of jobs. Not to mention the possible film production jobs, acting jobs, clerical positions, hospitality, security, marketing, HR, risk management. I think Utopia will have jobs for a VERY WIDE range of people. No one has said anything about Eminent Domain, so let's not even bring it up.

[runawayjim]

I'm sorry did you say that people you know are looking for mechanical engineering jobs and won't be able to find them at Utopia? I hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying because there will be thousands of those type of jobs. Not to mention the possible film production jobs, acting jobs, clerical positions, hospitality, security, marketing, HR, risk management. I think Utopia will have jobs for a VERY WIDE range of people. No one has said anything about Eminent Domain, so let's not even bring it up.

what sorts of mechanical engineering jobs will it offer aside from the amusement park stuff, which i don't think they'd be interested in considering their current jobs and will most likely not equate to thousands?

i brought up eminent domain because it can become a real possibility. one of the things that has not been mentioned is a plan for the traffic. since it'll be right on rt 12, i think eminent domain might come up given that the houses are right on the road, so you can't easily widen that road without taking the property.

[HartfordTycoon]

what sorts of mechanical engineering jobs will it offer aside from the amusement park stuff, which i don't think they'd be interested in considering their current jobs and will most likely not equate to thousands?

i brought up eminent domain because it can become a real possibility. one of the things that has not been mentioned is a plan for the traffic. since it'll be right on rt 12, i think eminent domain might come up given that the houses are right on the road, so you can't easily widen that road without taking the property.

Well the amusement park stuff will be the main source. I'm sure the attractions will be very complex and ever evolving requiring a vast amount of mechanical engineering work on a perpetual basis.

[runawayjim]

Well the amusement park stuff will be the main source. I'm sure the attractions will be very complex and ever evolving requiring a vast amount of mechanical engineering work on a perpetual basis.

that's the thing... if it's all indoors, they can't really be all that complex. roller coasters are really the most complex of them and they require a lot of space. it'll be unlikely that we'll see roller coasters inside this place.

[HartfordTycoon]

that's the thing... if it's all indoors, they can't really be all that complex. roller coasters are really the most complex of them and they require a lot of space. it'll be unlikely that we'll see roller coasters inside this place.

I'm pretty sure they will sneak in 1 or 2. Also think about the movie themed adventure ride things like they have at Universal and MGM. Those attraction are incredibly complex and usually partially or completely indoors. Or indoor rides like the Disney Moon Mission thing and Space Mountain. Whatever it is there will be a lot of mechanical engineers present.

[damus]

The site "utopia now" has chronicled many of the Utopia articles from the New London Day over the past few years.

http://www.aboutweston.com/utopianow.html

Search for "finding utopia". It's quite a good read and should be required reading for any voter just so they know who they're potentially putting the faith of the region in.

Included in the package of material was a letter from Edmund Bergassi, a New Rochelle bonding agent. In the letter he promises to supply the bonding to support Utopia's plans to clean up the hazardous wastes, asbestos, lead paint and other materials that contaminate the property. The price tag for the cleanup has been estimated at $40 million. Proving the ability to get the job done will be vital for any developer seeking to take control of the property.

Yet Bergassi is a man with a checkered past. A major contributor to the Republican Party in New York, and a member and contributor to various non-profit organizations, he is also a man who has been caught on surveillance tapes talking to a known mobster. And in 1997 he lost a $1 million judgment in a case charging him with issuing fraudulent bonds.

Among the projects listed by (Stanley) Perelman (Gentile's business partner) in support of Gentile's Utopia application was a Costco Wholesale Club built in New Rochelle, N.Y., in 1997. Use of a special cap system allowed the project to be built on top of a former ash landfill, and the project is hailed as a

[HartfordTycoon]

That's one of the big problems. People are refusing to see the big picture of how this will affect everything. They are blindly assuming that this nice one little project will suddenly appear, and everything else will stay the same. It is precisely the kind of blind lack of planning and direction we so hate about places like Central Florida. And you guys are following the same exact footsteps.

The pro-Utopia forces seem to think only in terms of financial success or failure - they think the fears most people have are that the project itself will fail. That isn't the big worry. The big worry is what will happen to the surrounding world. WE are looking at how much more this can grow, not what it is now but what will happen in the future.

It's great to talk about engineering jobs and high end manufacturing, etc., but we do not know what kind of jobs he ill offer. We don't know if he will be building his own rides, or like many other companies buying them from other companies. We don't know how many of those jobs are going to be in the educational part or the parks part, or the studios. And quite frankly, basic IT jobs and basic studio jobs don't pay enough to really support a family. And if you go down this route, it is a very real possibiliy that you will have to then work at keeping the cost of living low enough so that there are enough workers available, and that is going to mean sprawl, fewer services such as transportation and education, and more big box retail instead of the costlier mom and pops.

There was a claim that the Anti-Utopian people are not addressing the conerns of the Utopian proponents. What concerns, exactly, are they? I don't understand what you feel isn't being addressed.

The concern for bringing a major economic driver to town. Sure there will be growing pains, but I think it will work out and be worth it. That's about it. You can call me blind or whatever, but I am a very skeptical person. I don't trust anyone just at face value. I am able to see when people really mean business though. These people mean business and we should let them bring it to Connecticut. Which one is more difficult, getting a major attraction to come in and jump start your local economy or dealing with the effects of a successful mega projoect? I think it's much harder to lure someone in to spending $1.6 Billion in private money than it will be to cope with the after effects, whatever those may be. And let's say they put up a resort, some housing, and some retail to make a nice mixed use development across from Mohegan. That would be pretty good. I just think it will still add to the sprawl anyway and provide less economic benefit. Something will be built there, it should be something with the potential to be huge, not just another mediocre new urbanist mall/appartment complex. Which is about the only thing I see going in there that will make sense and not be Utopia.

Corporate Headquarters? I mean really don't hold your breath on that one. Unless you are talking about the Corporate Headquarters for Utopia Studios.

[runawayjim]

The concern for bringing a major economic driver to town. Sure there will be growing pains, but I think it will work out and be worth it. That's about it. You can call me blind or whatever, but I am a very skeptical person. I don't trust anyone just at face value. I am able to see when people really mean business though. These people mean business and we should let them bring it to Connecticut. Which one is more difficult, getting a major attraction to come in and jump start your local economy or dealing with the effects of a successful mega projoect? I think it's much harder to lure someone in to spending $1.6 Billion in private money than it will be to cope with the after effects, whatever those may be. And let's say they put up a resort, some housing, and some retail to make a nice mixed use development across from Mohegan. That would be pretty good. I just think it will still add to the sprawl anyway and provide less economic benefit. Something will be built there, it should be something with the potential to be huge, not just another mediocre new urbanist mall/appartment complex. Which is about the only thing I see going in there that will make sense and not be Utopia.

Corporate Headquarters? I mean really don't hold your breath on that one. Unless you are talking about the Corporate Headquarters for Utopia Studios.

dealing with the after effects can take years and years and years, many more it can take to lure someone in, especially on a project this big. i think you are being blind to the possible realities of the situation.

[HartfordTycoon]

dealing with the after effects can take years and years and years, many more it can take to lure someone in, especially on a project this big. i think you are being blind to the possible realities of the situation.

I'm really not being blind. I am just willing to live with the after effects. I actually want to see this thing make New London County grow at a historic rate. I admittadly am much more interested in the economic rewards as is evidenced in my posts. All that bad stuff you keep bringing up just is not that big of a problem with me. That's why we don't see eye to eye. It's a major issue with you, but not to me. I think it can be dealt with reasonably (for the millionth time) and you don't. OK I get it.

OK so dealing with the after effects can take a long time, that's why the municipalities need a plan and a regional task force if they don't have one already. It could take forever or never to lure another opportunity like Utopia. That's what I mean when I say it could be much more difficult. We know that we have the capacity as a State to deal with the after effects eventually. Let's not be too lazy to figure out how to make this thing work. This is why we will never be a booming area. Booming areas are low on NIMBYs and high on pro-development types. There's nothing wrong with being a NIMBY just don't complain when people don't want to develop here. I mean really what are people affraid of? More people, more money, more housing, and more traffic. All of those things indicate that something is healthy with your economy or all of that stuff wouldn't be there. Those are the downsides to being a successful region. Let's focus on building a successful (economically) region and then worry about the rest.

[runawayjim]

I'm really not being blind. I am just willing to live with the after effects. I actually want to see this thing make New London County grow at a historic rate. I admittadly am much more interested in the economic rewards as is evidenced in my posts. All that bad stuff you keep bringing up just is not that big of a problem with me. That's why we don't see eye to eye. It's a major issue with you, but not to me. I think it can be dealt with reasonably (for the millionth time) and you don't. OK I get it.

OK so dealing with the after effects can take a long time, that's why the municipalities need a plan and a regional task force if they don't have one already. It could take forever or never to lure another opportunity like Utopia. That's what I mean when I say it could be much more difficult. We know that we have the capacity as a State to deal with the after effects eventually. Let's not be too lazy to figure out how to make this thing work. This is why we will never be a booming area. Booming areas are low on NIMBYs and high on pro-development types. There's nothing wrong with being a NIMBY just don't complain when people don't want to develop here. I mean really what are people affraid of. More people, more money, more housing, and more traffic. All of those things indicate that something is healthy with your economy or all of that stuff wouldn't be here. Those are the downsides to being a sucessful region.

you don't have to live there and deal with the after effects first hand. i know i don't live there either. why should the region have to come up with a plan to deal with the after effects? gentile should have a plan to deal with it other than saying "there won't be many". that makes me really skeptical of this guy. where's he getting the $1.6bil from? is it his own money, his investors' money, etc? if it's not all from his own pocket, who's to say that the investors he has might decide it's not feasible partway through construction and back out? there are a lot of questions not being answered and a lot that he is not telling people.

how much time do you spend in that part of the state? i drive through it almost weekly. it's bad enough in the summer and holidays, what do you think it'll be like if this goes through? there will be a traffic jam starting in old saybrook and from the other end probably at the RI border. that's not something anyone should bear if you ask me. a project of this size does not belong in that part of CT, it belongs next to a major city. the rural area just north of hartford would be perfect for it, or even just north of portland (it would give the state a real reason to make 385/6 a major highway, and rt 9 and 91 aren't far from there either). i am not opposed to the project in general, i am opposed to their choice of location.

[HartfordTycoon]

you don't have to live there and deal with the after effects first hand. i know i don't live there either. why should the region have to come up with a plan to deal with the after effects? gentile should have a plan to deal with it other than saying "there won't be many". that makes me really skeptical of this guy. where's he getting the $1.6bil from? is it his own money, his investors' money, etc? if it's not all from his own pocket, who's to say that the investors he has might decide it's not feasible partway through construction and back out? there are a lot of questions not being answered and a lot that he is not telling people.

how much time do you spend in that part of the state? i drive through it almost weekly. it's bad enough in the summer and holidays, what do you think it'll be like if this goes through? there will be a traffic jam starting in old saybrook and from the other end probably at the RI border. that's not something anyone should bear if you ask me. a project of this size does not belong in that part of CT, it belongs next to a major city. the rural area just north of hartford would be perfect for it, or even just north of portland (it would give the state a real reason to make 385/6 a major highway, and rt 9 and 91 aren't far from there either). i am not opposed to the project in general, i am opposed to their choice of location.

First Jim, let's clear up the misconception that there is some vast untapped rural area North of Hartford. There is no such area. There are parts of Bloomfield and Windsor that are sparsly populated but it doesn't make business sense to build this there. Even if only 25% of the patrons are gamblers, that is 25% we will not have access to directly in Hartford. As I have stated many (many, many, many, many) times, I think the viability is directly tied to their chosen location in an up-and-coming tourist area. I can tell you this, if I had my heart set on building a TOURIST ATTRACTION across the river from and in view of Mohegan Sun or the woods in Bloomfield I would be crazy and a damn fool to chose Bloomfield. It doesn't even begin to make sense. Also does it even make sense to destroy what natural areas we have left in mostly urban Greater Hartford, New Haven or Fairfield Co. when there is an industrial eyesore that is better suited in Preston?

Second, I don't spend all that much time there. If they get something down there worth me going to I may be down there more. Many people in CT probably feel that way. There will need to be road improvements and infrastructure improvements for sure. OK, let's get them done. Why would a private invester have to foot the bill for everything such as road improvements and such. Why if ING want's to move to East Hartford or Windsor, the state will assist them but someone who wants to spend $1.6 Billion in Private funds is getting a hassle? That's why people don't want to do business here it's a hassle. There are towns that would kill for this, where this process would have been wrapped up in less than a month. Utopia is not doing us favor per se by trying to come to CT, but it could end up being very mutually beneficial.

Third, Joe has been paying out of pocket so far supposedly. Bear Stein the NYC Brokerage House is said to be financing the actual projects and remain very comitted in spite of the controversy.