PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[damus]

According to financial disclosure statements filed with the state, the pro-Utopia political action committee had raised $3,623 through April 10. Of that, $2,800 was donated by union organizations with out-of-town offices and $110 by 15 individuals who listed their occupation as construction worker.

The organization has used the money to purchase signs, T-shirts, fliers and bumper stickers in support for the Utopia project. Dozens of union construction workers have routinely turned out for town meetings dealing with the proposed project.

...

Meanwhile, Preston Residents for Responsible Development, another group formed in response to the Utopia proposal, will be urging residents to vote no. The group intends to formally organize as a political action committee, requiring it to file financial disclosure statements, said its chairman, Keleigh Baretincic.

The group, organized Oct. 25, 2005, has so far been exempt from filing financial statements because it said it planned to spend less than $1,000.

...

Baretincic said Preston Residents for Responsible Development will use a mailing and advertising campaign to urge voters to reject Utopia because not enough information has been provided by the developer to demonstrate the project is feasible. The group also believes the project is too large for the 419 acres of property and will destroy the small-town character of Preston.

The group would like the town to open the door to other potential developers, she said.

The biggest fear if the referendum is approved, said member L. Michael Clancy, is that Utopia will get control of the property, be unable to develop it as planned, and keep it tied up in court for years. Committee members say they are not reassured by the proposed agreement that states the town can regain control of the land if the project is not developed as planned.

Clancy said it has upset him to see unions stacking meetings with out-of-town residents, creating an atmosphere that he said can be intimidating.

[drc72]

Sorry guys I hope this thing gets built. We need to put Connecticut back on the map. and the state needs revitalization, not just the cities alone. If the farms have to go to get the economy rolling again, then so be it. This whole project affects the whole state, not justthe select few here, that thinks it will affect them only just because their local.

[HartfordTycoon]

Sorry guys I hope this thing gets built. We need to put Connecticut back on the map. and the state needs revitalization, not just the cities alone. If the farms have to go to get the economy rolling again, then so be it. This whole project affects the whole state, not justthe select few here, that thinks it will affect them only just because their local.

I guess you're in my camp on this one. I'm not actively mourning the death of farms either.

[Recchia]

I guess you're in my camp on this one. I'm not actively mourning the death of farms either.

I'd mourn the deaths of farms for crappy sprawling developments though.

So what is the deal with Utopia? Isn't it going on an abandoned hospital site anyway? I'm all for Utopia if its built right and the right growth controls are put into place to help "shape" the massive wave of development it will bring into smart growth.

[damus]

I'd mourn the deaths of farms for crappy sprawling developments though.

So what is the deal with Utopia? Isn't it going on an abandoned hospital site anyway? I'm all for Utopia if its built right and the right growth controls are put into place to help "shape" the massive wave of development it will bring into smart growth.

Yeah, this attraction is supposedly going to be built alongside movie studios and a performing arts college on a 419 acre campus. The theme park component, pedicted to outdraw Dinsey World (47 Sq miles), simply makes no sense to me. I don't see a way for this place to grow in a reasonable way, especially considering that we'll be seeing most of the visitors drive into the area on their own. Utopia has already bought land in Bozrah off route 2, and was looking into land from the airport property in Waterford to as far north as Plainfield for ancillary developments. The development itself would be sprawling.

Perhaps the population growth can be controlled, but you can't really expect that to happen. There are no voices in the local media or government that champion the benefits of New Urbanism. I am afraid this will result in a traffic nightmare. We'll suffer through years maybe decades of terrible traffic on roads that were built for a metro area of 200,000 people, not a heavily touristed region with many more residents. Entire towns would lose their rural character and our "cities" will not fare much better, IMO. The only city that has it together somewhat is New London, and they aren't exactly at the epicenter of this thing. Norwich and the towns surrounding it will be changed for the worse if this is as big as they say it will be. Why not keep the last undeveloped spaces in the Megalopolis that way? Isn't that what New Urbanism is about, anyways?

[drc72]

I guess you're in my camp on this one. I'm not actively mourning the death of farms either.

Hell Yeah!!! This project is gonna be amazing. I can understand peoples concerns about traffic, population increases, and some other issues but I think they can be managed reasonably.

[HartfordTycoon]

I still do not have a good grasp of exactly what this "theme park" portion of the project will be. Especially when they start talking like 5 parks. There just isn't that much land there.

I don't understand how they will deal with weather, how they will deal with construction costs andregulations in the northeast, and how they will propose staffing this project. How will they deal with weather closures affecting travelers, and where is the energy (electricity, mostly) going to be coming from to run this?

I am not trying to rain on people's parade, but it seems to me blown a little too out of proportion. The area has to be real careful what they do, and put the money and focus on the right thinks, instead of wild schemes. We have seen attempts at theme parks in the NorthEast before, and they have not done well. It's a different economy up here than the south, and I worry we may not have the right demographics or resources for a project like this.

You are not raining on anyone's parade. A lot of people have doubts and with this it's reasonable. It takes a whole lot of imagination to envision this crazy thing. I still feel that if done right it can work and will work and be a boon for the state.

Or not......Who knows

[JimSawhill]

Everyone here makes valid points. I don't really want to see all of the farm land built on. I do know that economically speaking the farms in CT are very minor players. I agree that Norwich needs to step up and shoulder the brunt of the burden of this to the extent that it can and that they should be building up and not out. How about some High Rises in Norwich? That would be pretty interesting to see. The key is going to be the zoning. Like everyone is saying, if you don't allow them to change the zoning they can't build housing on farm land. However, Money talks so these things can't really be predicted fully.

The manufacturing industry is dead in America. You can thank the corporations for that. It's not about high taxes. They pay people pennies a day overseas for jobs that would be decent in America. Lowering taxes will do NOTHING to correct that imbalance. The entertainment industry is the biggest export we have in America today. This is an industry we need to welcome to the state with open arms.

Tycoon:

I doubt the Manufacturing sector is dead. Here I see some Manufacturing (Boats, Gypsum, Plywood, Ships, others) so all manufacturing is NOT done overseas. A misconception -- really -- since KIA just announced that they will be building an AUTOMOBILE PLANT in Georgia. Maybe you can't get ELECTRONICS made in the USA, but at least you can get a Toyota, Honda, Nissan built in the USA.

JimS

[damus]

The meeting last night (which I left at 10:00 to relieve the babystitter) was pretty much uninformative. The first half hour was Cathy Gentile's trainwreck of a speech (she was either mentally challenged, drunk, or high on cocaine ... I suspect the latter considering she was much more coherant later in the night), then the "experts" showing us what projects their companies have done in the past. This doesn't address too many of my issues. They did confirm what I thought all along. This $1.6 billion proposal is phase 1. The other phases will be as big if not much bigger than this, and they will be sprawled out over the entire region. If this happens, property values will skyrocket and this region will be forever changed. I will not be able to afford to live where I do in the future if all this is done. The people who stand to benefit the most from this thing don't live here.

Get this crap out of the rural areas. There are two types of voters who I fear will doom the region to a future of sprawl. The real idiots, all caught up in the flashyness of the proposal and not thinking of their own quality of life or even understanding the scale of this Utopia thing if it is a success (think: Orlando, maybe bigger, only even more sprawlerriffic), coupled with the property owners who see dollar signs will probably be a large enough percentage of the populace to let these guys build....

[HartfordTycoon]

But did they go into exactly WHAT they are going to be building? A lot of what they seem to be hyping up doesn't really hold a lot of water logically. I am all for Theme Parks, but they simply aren't going to work in an economy that lacks the resources for them. They don't seem to be presenting anything about what is going to be driving this tourist base, where the workers are going to come from, where the infrastructure to support the tourists AND the companies that would eventually spring up surrounding it. They also don't go into much about how it will relate to the surrounding economy. Yes, we are familliar with teh Disney Stories, but Disney already had a market to draw from. Look at places such as the Sea World and Universal Studios parks, or the Bush Gardens. Their local impact is quite a bit different.

More importantly, why will this be different? There have been many attempts to encourage more motion picture industry business throughout New England. Yet they havn't really held on well. How will this be different? Why will investment in this be worth it?

I am not saying it cannot be done, or even that it cannot be done well. But I worry that nobody is thinking of that. This could be really something special - or it could be a dud. I want to know MORE!

Those are valid points and I think the issue is we can't be sure it would work. That's why they chose the up and coming hottest tourism destination in the Northeast: Southeastern Connecticut. And they chose a rich state where many Hollywood insiders actually call home. There is no reason that it wouldn't work and I guess that is the main reason most people support it. I mean it makes sense. At least it does to me. I see how and why they want to do it and think it could be done. The worst that can happen is that they build it and it's a dud. Guess what, it all privately financed. So I say if they want to spend the money that way. Let them.

[drc72]

But did they go into exactly WHAT they are going to be building? A lot of what they seem to be hyping up doesn't really hold a lot of water logically. I am all for Theme Parks, but they simply aren't going to work in an economy that lacks the resources for them. They don't seem to be presenting anything about what is going to be driving this tourist base, where the workers are going to come from, where the infrastructure to support the tourists AND the companies that would eventually spring up surrounding it. They also don't go into much about how it will relate to the surrounding economy. Yes, we are familliar with teh Disney Stories, but Disney already had a market to draw from. Look at places such as the Sea World and Universal Studios parks, or the Bush Gardens. Their local impact is quite a bit different.

More importantly, why will this be different? There have been many attempts to encourage more motion picture industry business throughout New England. Yet they havn't really held on well. How will this be different? Why will investment in this be worth it?

I am not saying it cannot be done, or even that it cannot be done well. But I worry that nobody is thinking of that. This could be really something special - or it could be a dud. I want to know MORE!

Well of course there are risks involved, even I can't predict weather it will do good or not. But we will never know, unless it happens.

[damus]

But did they go into exactly WHAT they are going to be building? A lot of what they seem to be hyping up doesn't really hold a lot of water logically. I am all for Theme Parks, but they simply aren't going to work in an economy that lacks the resources for them. They don't seem to be presenting anything about what is going to be driving this tourist base, where the workers are going to come from, where the infrastructure to support the tourists AND the companies that would eventually spring up surrounding it. They also don't go into much about how it will relate to the surrounding economy. Yes, we are familliar with teh Disney Stories, but Disney already had a market to draw from. Look at places such as the Sea World and Universal Studios parks, or the Bush Gardens. Their local impact is quite a bit different.

More importantly, why will this be different? There have been many attempts to encourage more motion picture industry business throughout New England. Yet they havn't really held on well. How will this be different? Why will investment in this be worth it?

I am not saying it cannot be done, or even that it cannot be done well. But I worry that nobody is thinking of that. This could be really something special - or it could be a dud. I want to know MORE!

Heh... I ran into big Joe again.... at the town dump!

He talked to me for a good 15 minutes. I gotta say he's a very good talker. Too good. He almost had me convinced. What got me was he tried to sell me that the majority of the 22,000 "head of household" jobs would be filled by people already here. How many people are unemployed in the region right now? Also, I told him how much I was making per hour at a prominent employer in the region as an entry level I/T technician. He pretty much offered me a $50/hr job doing construction, with NO EXPERIENCE??!?!? I thought you needed to be a foreman or work some sort of hazardous job to make that money in construction...

He also says that the visitors will "all" be taken in on buses... because we all know Americans love riding buses to get where they're going. Also, most of his visitors are apparantly coming in while on their trips to the casinos. We'll see...

The way he talks, it's hard to argue with him... he's a pretty smart guy and has been doing this for 4 years... he knows how to speak persuavely. Just because someone can win an argument doesn't make him right.

I honestly think this guy doesn't give a crap about what happens to us, and pretends to care for the obvious reason: to get his project through. I can't describe him better than a local liquor store owner did, "used car salesman". I say get rid of him and all the shady people he's bringin with him. Someone else should take his project, this really shouldn't be put in a rural area.

[HartfordTycoon]

He also says that the visitors will "all" be taken in on buses... because we all know Americans love riding buses to get where they're going. Also, most of his visitors are apparantly coming in while on their trips to the casinos. We'll see...

For some strange reason that just made it make more sense to me the way he put it there. I mean basically there's gonna be a regional shuttle service running the loop from both casinos, Utopia, and possibly North Stonington Studios. That seems pretty simple to me. I think it's a solid plan.

[damus]

http://www.aboutweston.com/utopianow.html#newutop

Waterford

[damus]

The thing I hate the most about this jerk is that when you go to his meetings or even talk to him in person, he has a response for everything in an attempt to make his project sound like there are no negatives. He's a very persuasive guy, but you cannot trust him. A telling part was the fact that in their meeting they spent a lot of time telling us how they're such good people with the best of intentions. Isn't the habit of telling everyone how good of a person you are one of the things you're supposed to look for in "bad people"? They're not being honsest with us.

[TaylorG4444]

so what's going on now? I'm a bit confused. Is it going to happen or not? Where do we stand with this project? And what of these two other sites in Waterford and Bozrah?

[damus]

so what's going on now? I'm a bit confused. Is it going to happen or not? Where do we stand with this project? And what of these two other sites in Waterford and Bozrah?

I'm afraid it will happen, but there are a lot of residents who are vehemently opposed to it. I've started asking all my relatives that live in town, and they're all against it. There may be a silent majority, but I'm not taking it for granted. I'm going to try and get some pieces of info from old local newspaper articles, and some statistics about what happened in Orange County, California and Orange County, Florida when Disney came along, and make some pamplets to distrubute throughout the town. Joe G. is promising that the character of the region will not be changed, and people are believing him.

[damus]

I want to believe that this is a good project. I admit I have a soft spot for theme parks, and this area needs a little excitement and imagination. I even believe that, done right, a theme park could be built in a way that would benefit the community.

But something smells about this project. They are being too closed about it - this could, potentially, turn all of southern New England into another Orlando or Aneheim. It could be the worst case of Sprawl ever seen in these parts. It would be a lot easier to feel good about it, if we knew what they were planning, not just for the first phase but what is likely to come later. So we knew how to plan for that. Yet they won't tell anybody anything, It just reeks of a bad sprawl project.

What surprises me is how little mention there is of this anywhere else. This could have a drastic effect on lower Worcester Country in Mass, it most certainly would have a huge impact on RI, particularly TF Green. Yet they havn't so much as brought it up.

I said I wasn't gonna say it in the RI forum ... but whatever. My maternal grandmother's father was an alcoholic, and drank to the point where they admitted him to the Norwich Hospital, where he stayed til he died. That fat f*ck said to my brother "did you have any relatives who were in the Norwich Hospital". I now hate him. Seriously, this jerk made it personal. I'll do what I can to try and see this place doesn't get put up. The way I take it, they're trying to sneak a Disney type place in on us and treats us all like stupid hicks. He told me at the town dump that I, with ZERO experience, could be making $50/hr working construction. He's a lying scumbag out to make votes. He doesn't care about us. If I was my brother (autistic and presumably a weak person for Joe to pick on) I'd have punched the fat f*ck in the face and ended up in the papers as the lunatic who punched Joe Gentile.

[TaylorG4444]

After reading all this negativity about the Utopia proposal something dawned on me....a few of the people who are all for new and brighter things for Hartford and Connecticut as a whole are the EXACT SAME people who are being 100% NIMBY'S about Utopia. Now I'm not saying that the present proposal of Utopia is good or bad, nor will I pretend to be able to see this proposal from a farmers perspective because I can't. What I can do is see the PROS and CONS of this proposal, and though there are various CONS that Gentile seems to lecture his way out of when approached about, I must say that the facts given about what this project will be able to do for SE Connecticut's economy is are DEFINITE PROS. The time for forward thinkers is at hand. To think that an area with such a prime location between NYC and Boston....and with it's proximity to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun could go untouched is naive. Growth will happen whether SE CT wants it to or not. That was confirmed the day Foxwoods set up shop. The one worry I have is with the states complete lack of planning for the inevitable future because if this is going to be built we will need the proper roads and highways to with stand the influx of people to the area. But that's just my take on it....

[damus]

To think that an area with such a prime location between NYC and Boston....and with it's proximity to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun could go untouched is naive. Growth will happen whether SE CT wants it to or not. That was confirmed the day Foxwoods set up shop. The one worry I have is with the states complete lack of planning for the inevitable future because if this is going to be built we will need the proper roads and highways to with stand the influx of people to the area. But that's just my take on it....

You bring up valid points, but I just don't agree with you. I'm not against development there, I am against the Orlandoization of the area. I don't think we should have to develop this in that much of a way. If Pfizer ended up putting in a $1 billion corporate heaquarters there I'd be for it. This Utopia project would have a far bigger effect.

I personally would like to see Uncasville and Norwich (where I grew up) to see a lot of development. There are hundreds of acres of undeveloped land behind St. Bernards high school in Uncasville. That town's character is more exurban right now, anyways, and Norwich likes to call itself a city, so they'd love to see development. I also think that, with or without Utopia, we should see some "driveways to the casino" put in through Preston. Finish routes 2 and 2a, limit where the exits go, and zone against the sprawling development that would like to follow.

Does anyone remember how much the people around here opposed Six Flags when they wanted to build in Preston then in North Stonington? They were concerned about traffic and the loss of the region's character. Now a place that will turn the area to another Orange County (Cali or Florida) is being proposed and people are all for it. It makes no sense to me. They are being led to believe that all the Utopia visitors are "already there" and that only a second span on the Mohegan Pequot bridge will be needed. The jobs will be "filled by area residents" (all 22,000 unemployed residents not including the jobs that aren't "head of household" types). They are being lied to by a group of developers who, by bringing in a pathetic group of actors like Ron Perlman and Cathy Moriarty-Gentile (the wife), are trying (successfully) to impress a bunch of hicks with all these famous hollywood types.

It's not like the Hartford/New Haven area doesn't have room to grow. With gas prices what they are and likely to only get higher; why not promote urbanism around the cities we have instead of encouraging sprawl with a project like Utopia that will in itself sprawl out across the region? Let's focus on lowering taxes and building that commuter rail, not Utopia. I love cities, but I also love the area I live in now.

[HartfordTycoon]

The key thing here is that, yes, it COULD be definite pros. There could also be DEFINITE CONS, too. You CAN'T plan for something that you don't have enough information on, and that is the problem here. It's not the project itself that is a problem - it's the fact that absolutely nothing has been disclosed about what this will be. We don't know if he is going to be building something on the scale of a small museum or something the size of Disney MGM Studios. There just lacks enough real information here to allow it go forward. This could turn out to be potentially devastating to the entire region.

I don't thint that's completely true. We know the scale will be more MGM Studios and definately not small museumish. This thing will be huge and I think Utopia has done a good job in letting people know that. All you have to do is pay attention to what they are saying. Let's look at a few things

22,000 Jobs

4 Hotels

Theme Park

Movie Studios and Production Facilities

Performing Arts College

Cost - $1.6 Billion

That does not sound like a small museum to me. The US Coast Gaurd Museum announced recently for New London by comparison has a total price tag of $60 Million. So we do know this thing is gigantic. No questions about that. I mean are these things you were not aware of? I'm just not sure why you seem so in the dark.

Check out the early posts on this thread. They have a lot of the info that it seems like you are missing.

Early Rendering

[damus]

I don't thint that's completely true. We know the scale will be more MGM Studios and definately not small museumish. This thing will be huge and I think Utopia has done a good job in letting people know that. All you have to do is pay attention to what they are saying. Let's look at a few things

22,000 Jobs

4 Hotels

Theme Park

Movie Studios and Production Facilities

Performing Arts College

Cost - $1.6 Billion

Early Rendering

This doesn't include their plans for a movie/animation studio on over 300 acres in Waterford, whatever it is they have planned for the Bozrah land, or anything else they aren't telling us. The "entertainment corridor from Waterford to RI" comment says it all. We'll be Orange County (Cali or Florida, both were Disneyfied) only with crapty weather if this thing is a success...

[runawayjim]

Those are valid points and I think the issue is we can't be sure it would work. That's why they chose the up and coming hottest tourism destination in the Northeast: Southeastern Connecticut. And they chose a rich state where many Hollywood insiders actually call home. There is no reason that it wouldn't work and I guess that is the main reason most people support it. I mean it makes sense. At least it does to me. I see how and why they want to do it and think it could be done. The worst that can happen is that they build it and it's a dud. Guess what, it all privately financed. So I say if they want to spend the money that way. Let them.

I don't think it's a good attitude to say that they should spend the money and build something that could very well flop. then you have the landscape of the area changed and more vacant buildings, some of which will probably be much larger than the current vacant buildings.

i have mixed feelings about this project... it could really be good for the economy of an already poor area. but if it flops, it could be worse than leaving the place vacant.

now, to be sure i know where this is going... if you go north on 12, it's the vacant state hospital (mostly on the left, river side) just north of 2A, right?

[HartfordTycoon]

I don't think it's a good attitude to say that they should spend the money and build something that could very well flop. then you have the landscape of the area changed and more vacant buildings, some of which will probably be much larger than the current vacant buildings.

i have mixed feelings about this project... it could really be good for the economy of an already poor area. but if it flops, it could be worse than leaving the place vacant.

now, to be sure i know where this is going... if you go north on 12, it's the vacant state hospital (mostly on the left, river side) just north of 2A, right?

I just can't imagine it flopping. Really why would it? What real reasons do people have for thinking the project will fail economically? I think the location is perfect for this type of project due to it's proximately in a very hot tourist region. New London just had a Cruise Ship in the port last week. There's so much to do in that area for tourist that I won't even bother typing it right now. Why do all of those projects work so well while this wouldn't? I am not looking to hear reasons against it for personal or quality of life issues, not with this specific question at least, but rather why do people think it wont work economically.

In my opinion this project is extremely solid and one of the most ambitious and impressive projects I have seen proposed in my entire life anywhere in the United States. It just seems like a no brainer to me. Hollywood is on the other side of the country and there is nothing even close to being equivelent on the East Coast. This project fills a void for movie makers across the country who would like to conduct major business regularly from the East Coast. This will give a lot of people the option to live and work in the Northeast when before they were banished to LaLa land. I really want to see this happen, not just for Preston/Norwich but for Connecticut and the entire Northeast. Entertainment is the largest industry in America. Let's not chase it away when it wants to set up shop in a state desperate for new energy, ideas, and industry... And New Residents, something like this could reverse the slow to non-existent population growth we have seen in Connecticut for decades. Imagine aspiring actors from all over the East Coast moving to CT to try and make it big in Connecticut. This is really an opportunity to re-invent our state the way I see it.

[runawayjim]

I just can't imagine it flopping. Really why would it? What real reasons do people have for thinking the project will fail economically? I think the location is perfect for this type of project due to it's proximately in a very hot tourist region. New London just had a Cruise Ship in the port last week. There's so much to do in that area for tourist that I won't even bother typing it right now. Why do all of those projects work so well while this wouldn't? I am not looking to hear reasons against it for personal or quality of life issues, not with this specific question at least, but rather why do people think it wont work economically.

it's a HUGE project, bigger than the casinos from what i can tell. the casinos worked because people like to gamble.

while there is a lot in that area for tourist attractions, it's mainly the 2 casinos. mystic is the closest thing, and it's 20 min away. with the traffic that this will cause and with summer traffic, it will be more like 45 minutes to mystic (the biggest non-casino tourist attraction in SE CT).

if downtown norwich really cleaned house, the project would be a no brainer. there's a lot of potential in norwich, it could be a pretty hip downtown, and maybe it will be if this project goes through. i don't see people going to the casinos or utopia travelling to hartford for tourist stuff.

i don't know... it's a toss up.