PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[damus]

I just can't imagine it flopping. Really why would it? What real reasons do people have for thinking the project will fail economically? I think the location is perfect for this type of project due to it's proximately in a very hot tourist region. New London just had a Cruise Ship in the port last week. There's so much to do in that area for tourist that I won't even bother typing it right now. Why do all of those projects work so well while this wouldn't? I am not looking to hear reasons against it for personal or quality of life issues, not with this specific question at least, but rather why do people think it wont work economically.

Mismanagement for one. How many people have ever heard of Ron Perlman? He's the big hollywood "star" they have lined up to run their performing arts school. Look at DreamWorks, even with great movies it's hard to compete against the big guys in that business. What if the theme park doesn't draw the 70k per day with 100k+ on peak days like they say it will and only draws in Six Flags numbers? They could, perhaps, run into some unforseen costs during construction and then not have the funds to complete the thing.

[HartfordTycoon]

Mismanagement for one. How many people have ever heard of Ron Perlman? He's the big hollywood "star" they have lined up to run their performing arts school. Look at DreamWorks, even with great movies it's hard to compete against the big guys in that business. What if the theme park doesn't draw the 70k per day with 100k+ on peak days like they say it will and only draws in Six Flags numbers? They could, perhaps, run into some unforseen costs during construction and then not have the funds to complete the thing.

OK Valid points. As for Ron Perlman, I have kinda heard of him, but he certainly no huge star. However who in their right mind would start up a studio and compete with the big boy out the gate. Dreamworks tried because of the names attached to it. I don't think Utopia will be trying to produce big budget blockbusters at first but certainly see it getting a good amount of Television, Made for TV Movies, and smaller budget films almost immediately.

There are already more tourists in SE CT on any day of the year than at Six Flags on any day of the year. Not a certainty that they will check out Utopia, but I like the chances. I think this is the main reason why this would not fly in any of the more urban CT counties. We do not have a tourist market remotely comparable to SE CT.

Construction Costs - Well I think they have a pretty deep well considering they already have secured 1.6 Billion in funding from private sources.

[runawayjim]

OK Valid points. As for Ron Perlman, I have kinda heard of him, but he certainly no huge star. However who in their right mind would start up a studio and compete with the big boy out the gate. Dreamworks tried because of the names attached to it. I don't think Utopia will be trying to produce big budget blockbusters at first but certainly see it getting a good amount of Television, Made for TV Movies, and smaller budget films almost immediately.

There are already more tourists in SE CT on any day of the year than at Six Flags on any day of the year. Not a certainty that they will check out Utopia, but I like the chances.

Construction Costs - Well I think they have a pretty deep well considering they already have secured 1.6 Billion in funding from private sources.

these tourists wouldn't happen to be gamblers, would they? i don't like depending on all these tourists in SE CT who outnumber 6 flags' tourists if the vast majority of them are gamblers. they might check out utopia, but wouldn't spend a ton of time there. also, 6 flags is only open for the season, as would utopia's theme park. 6 flags has the bigger name in the theme park world...

they do have good funding... but so did the big dig in boston. the moral, things can and will go wrong. it's just a matter of how wrong they go.

[damus]

these tourists wouldn't happen to be gamblers, would they? i don't like depending on all these tourists in SE CT who outnumber 6 flags' tourists if the vast majority of them are gamblers. they might check out utopia, but wouldn't spend a ton of time there. also, 6 flags is only open for the season, as would utopia's theme park. 6 flags has the bigger name in the theme park world...

they do have good funding... but so did the big dig in boston. the moral, things can and will go wrong. it's just a matter of how wrong they go.

Well Utopia's theme park is supposedly going to be a giant dome with multiple levels inside.

[runawayjim]

Well Utopia's theme park is supposedly going to be a giant dome with multiple levels inside.

viva las biodome!

on a serious note, how feasible is that? it kind of limits the number and types of attractions.

[damus]

viva las biodome!

on a serious note, how feasible is that? it kind of limits the number and types of attractions.

I don't know. Skip Hayward (the guy who started Foxwoods and made Indian gaming possible nationwide) wanted to use casino revenue to create a domed theme park on their reservation. Someone also posted a project in Rochester that also envisions a domed theme park.

I really can't believe so many people in this area are for this when they're against the littlest of things, like a hotel or a restaurant.

[Jerry2]

I just can't imagine it flopping. Really why would it? What real reasons do people have for thinking the project will fail economically? I think the location is perfect for this type of project due to it's proximately in a very hot tourist region. New London just had a Cruise Ship in the port last week. There's so much to do in that area for tourist that I won't even bother typing it right now. Why do all of those projects work so well while this wouldn't? I am not looking to hear reasons against it for personal or quality of life issues, not with this specific question at least, but rather why do people think it wont work economically.

In my opinion this project is extremely solid and one of the most ambitious and impressive projects I have seen proposed in my entire life anywhere in the United States. It just seems like a no brainer to me. Hollywood is on the other side of the country and there is nothing even close to being equivelent on the East Coast. This project fills a void for movie makers across the country who would like to conduct major business regularly from the East Coast. This will give a lot of people the option to live and work in the Northeast when before they were banished to LaLa land. I really want to see this happen, not just for Preston/Norwich but for Connecticut and the entire Northeast. Entertainment is the largest industry in America. Let's not chase it away when it wants to set up shop in a state desperate for new energy, ideas, and industry... And New Residents, something like this could reverse the slow to non-existent population growth we have seen in Connecticut for decades. Imagine aspiring actors from all over the East Coast moving to CT to try and make it big in Connecticut. This is really an opportunity to re-invent our state the way I see it.

Why do you think this project would work? Movie stars moving to CT? Fat chance! The movie industry is based out of LA, and while many maintain 2nd homes in Miami and NYC, they're not going to plop down McMansions in Preston. It's not going to happen. Disneyland and Disneyworld succeed because they're located in climates that can support year-round investment. Whether the whole park is in abig bubble or not, you are not going to see tourists lined in their cars waiting to get in in the middle of January. It's not going to happen . New England loses residents in the winter season. You seem to have all these crazy ideas as to why this project will work, and quite frankly, none of them make sense. I would like Providence to be a major city, but that's not going to happen..EVER! But it could be a major city in NE and I'd be content with that. I guess everyone has a dream.

The Northeast has density and provides a much better quality of life than areas of the country that have sprawled out of control. Population shifts are mostly due to economic reasons. If the NE could reverse its economic policies, have a more balanced political profile( and that goes for red states too ), and promote more mass transit, it could potentially reverse its economic donward spiral. Combine that with consolidating school districts, community borders, and fiscal efficiency and watch the region come back..There are many people who would live here if the cost of living and the taxes could be reduced.We could be a model for the nation. However, when you have glitzy proposals like casinos and theme parks declaring tax freedom for all, doesn't that make you wonder? Why does the economy of the NE continue to suffer and lose residents year after year? Do you honestly think that some sprawling Utopia bvll$hiyt deal is the cure ?What is working so well in NC and Georgia? Is it all just available land? Kansas has a lot of land too.C'mon...and Foxwoods as a tourist attraction! Try demon pit! (spoken from a former gambling addict)

[HartfordTycoon]

Why do you think this project would work? Movie stars moving to CT? Fat chance! The movie industry is based out of LA, and while many maintain 2nd homes in Miami and NYC, they're not going to plop down McMansions in Preston. It's not going to happen. Disneyland and Disneyworld succeed because they're located in climates that can support year-round investment. Whether the whole park is in abig bubble or not, you are not going to see tourists lined in their cars waiting to get in in the middle of January. It's not going to happen . New England loses residents in the winter season. You seem to have all these crazy ideas as to why this project will work, and quite frankly, none of them make sense. I would like Providence to be a major city, but that's not going to happen..EVER! But it could be a major city in NE and I'd be content with that. I guess everyone has a dream.

The Northeast has density and provides a much better quality of life than areas of the country that have sprawled out of control. Population shifts are mostly due to economic reasons. If the NE could reverse its economic policies, have a more balanced political profile( and that goes for red states too ), and promote more mass transit, it could potentially reverse its economic donward spiral. Combine that with consolidating school districts, community borders, and fiscal efficiency and watch the region come back..There are many people who would live here if the cost of living and the taxes could be reduced.We could be a model for the nation. However, when you have glitzy proposals like casinos and theme parks declaring tax freedom for all, doesn't that make you wonder? Why does the economy of the NE continue to suffer and lose residents year after year? Do you honestly think that some sprawling Utopia bvll$hiyt deal is the cure ?What is working so well in NC and Georgia? Is it all just available land? Kansas has a lot of land too.C'mon...and Foxwoods as a tourist attraction! Try demon pit! (spoken from a former gambling addict)

OK. The people with $1.6 Billion don't think that my ideas are crazy as to why the project would suceed. If it's built it will be a success. I stick to that. Is it really crazy to think movie stars might move to CT. Why? We are the richest state in the Nation. Do you not think they would feel pretty at home in Greenwich and Westport? No one says the millionaires will move to Preston. Now can I see kids coming from all over the country to go to the performing arts school? Absolutely. Can I see aspiring actors moving to the area to try to break into the film industry if it was here? Absolutely. It does take some imagination but I see it. So does Joe Gentile and so does Bear Stein. All of whom have a little bit more clout and experience than you. So I really don't see why my ideas that it will be a success are crazy yet your irrational notion that it will bomb are not. Truthfully, we will know if it's coming or not in 2 weeks. So let's just wait and see. Then when it does come we can wait and see if it works. That's all.

[beerbeer]

Jerry -- numerous movie stars already live in Connecticut and have for a long time. Westport, Greenwich and the surrounding communities have long been homes of the rich and famous. So please, don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about.

[HartfordTycoon]

Jerry -- numerous movie stars already live in Connecticut and have for a long time. Westport, Greenwich and the surrounding communities have long been homes of the rich and famous. So please, don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about.

Exactly my point. If the East Coast had an equivelent to Beverly Hills it would be Greenwich or Westport anyway. Like I said if built and built correctly it will absolutely work. Just because movie stars don't move to RI and Mass don't assume they don't like New England.

[Jerry2]

Exactly my point. If the East Coast had an equivelent to Beverly Hills it would be Greenwich or Westport anyway. Like I said if built and built correctly it will absolutely work. Just because movie stars don't move to RI and Mass don't assume they don't like New England.

First of all, stars live in Greenwich and Westport because it's a suburb of NYC..Period!....That's not my point. This project does absolutely nothing for distressed urban centers all across NE, never mind MA or RI. There are no plans to accomodate traffic and even less plans to provide mass transportation. I think it would be a great project if it was situatesd in a more urban setting in CT. Last time I checked, there were plenty of cities across CT that could use more investment. You are definitely caught up in the glitz and glamor of this whole project...Hartford, fughettaboutit..any city in southern NE, has absolutely nothing to gain from this project....just loss....You can believe whatever you want or dream about this all you want...It still doesn't take away the fact that this deal is blown smoke.

Ct and the rest of NE need to take a look at their whole infrastructure and come up with ways to benefit economically..and some bubble kiddie park is not going to do the trick....Sorry! The economy should focus more on quality of life ideas like mass transport, consolidation of government, and historic tax incentives...

[damus]

Am I the only person who hates the celebrity crazy culture we live in today? Really .. who cares if, say, Tom Cruise is in town? After all I've heard about him I'd rather not meet him. A lot of celebrities (even non-celebrities like the Utopia folks) can't get enough of themselves. Other than the sprawl effect (which would be far less than Utopia), what's wrong with trying to attract a corporation that pays well over there?

[Jerry2]

Am I the only person who hates the celebrity crazy culture we live in today? Really .. who cares if, say, Tom Cruise is in town? After all I've heard about him I'd rather not meet him. A lot of celebrities (even non-celebrities like the Utopia folks) can't get enough of themselves. Other than the sprawl effect (which would be far less than Utopia), what's wrong with trying to attract a corporation that pays well over there?

A voice of reason!

[drc72]

This could turn out to be potentially devastating to the entire region.

Don't you think that's a little overboard. Seriously I agree that we definitely need to see more of what the project is about. I think Utopia can do wonders to CT's economy. Let's face tourism is a main economic driver for us. We can't really rely on the defense industry like we did in the eighties. Those days are gone. The toursim industry is a big business. We need to get rid of the NIMBY mindset, otherwise it will be very difficult to get anywhere in this state when opportunities like this arise.

[HartfordTycoon]

Am I the only person who hates the celebrity crazy culture we live in today? Really .. who cares if, say, Tom Cruise is in town? After all I've heard about him I'd rather not meet him. A lot of celebrities (even non-celebrities like the Utopia folks) can't get enough of themselves. Other than the sprawl effect (which would be far less than Utopia), what's wrong with trying to attract a corporation that pays well over there?

Damus, nothing is wrong with trying to lure a corporation. Which ones did you have in mind and have any of them expressed any interest whatsoever into building a new headquarters on the former Norwich Hospital Property in Norwich? Hartford or Stamford has a better chance at landing a corporate headquarters. Corporations do not generally move to a rural area that is not even in a large metro. Unless you guys want to be in Hartford's MSA you don't have much of one. That's a serious weakness in attracting such a large corporation. I don't want to sound negative but Utopia stands a much better chance at actually coming here and being successful than the likelihood that any large company would chose to move to that site. Your next best bet for it would be more housing for the area or a nice mixed use new modernist development.

[damus]

Damus, nothing is wrong with trying to lure a corporation. Which ones did you have in mind and have any of them expressed any interest whatsoever into building a new headquarters on the former Norwich Hospital Property in Norwich? Hartford or Stamford has a better chance at landing a corporate headquarters. Corporations do not generally move to a rural area that is not even in a large metro. Unless you guys want to be in Hartford's MSA you don't have much of one. That's a serious weakness in attracting such a large corporation. I don't want to sound negative but Utopia stands a much better chance at actually coming here and being successful than the likelihood that any large company would chose to move to that site. Your next best bet for it would be more housing for the area or a nice mixed use new modernist development.

Pfizer was eyeing the campus in 1999 for its headquarters, but wasn't too patient and is right now in New York. Around the same time, 23 other proposals were submitted for the site. True, many of them were for mixed use development, but oh well. The state is holding us back. It's not like it's impossible to locate something there. The location is very desirable, but between the taxes, pollution at the site, and the state's dragging of the feet there are some drawbacks.

[runawayjim]

cloudship said it best that we need to be sure the towns and cities retain their individuality. florida lacks that, especially in and around orlando (and most of the rest of the state except maybe the northern part along the panhandle). CT doesn't need an orlando. CT doesn't need a LA. and neither does the rest of new england. what makes new england and much of the northeast so different and special is how unique so many small areas are. the states in the northeast, and especially new england are the smallest states in the country. people want to see new england as one, but each of those states has a certain uniqueness to them. a project like this, unless extremely carefully planned will take away the individuality of the norwich area and mold it into this larger entertainment area. CT does not need that.

i may live in RI, but i spent the first 24 years of my life in CT, so i have a lot of connections there (not to mention my whole family). i don't want to see this project ruin such a great, QUIET part of the state. once you leave the areas by the casinos, that whole part of the state is very quiet, especially where they want to build this. i just don't see the need for an entertainment area of the state. nevermind the traffic nightmares something like this will most definitely cause.

i have one other issue with this project... did the state just decide to sell the land to the highest bidder without looking at what they were planning on building? i am pretty sure the land (at least what i am thinking of) is owned by the state (and would actually make a great location for a branch for uconn or ECSU). has anyone tried to lure corporations to that location?

[damus]

cloudship said it best that we need to be sure the towns and cities retain their individuality. florida lacks that, especially in and around orlando (and most of the rest of the state except maybe the northern part along the panhandle). CT doesn't need an orlando. CT doesn't need a LA. and neither does the rest of new england. what makes new england and much of the northeast so different and special is how unique so many small areas are. the states in the northeast, and especially new england are the smallest states in the country.

EXACTLY. The problem is no one seems to know what the h*ll they are voting for. One guy in the Norwich Bulletin forums is acting like the typical Utopia backer, talking down to everyone who's against it calling them closed minded NIMBYs. The part that was truely telling of his ignorance was that he thinks this will not have the same impact that Foxwoods did. This will only be a $1.6 park run by a bunch of lying crooks, supported by thousand of acres of ancillary developments going from waterford to plainfield, and from bozrah to RI. No one gets it. It feels like even the local media doesn't wanna get it (or has been bought off). I do not get why almost no one seems to be seeing through this.

has anyone tried to lure corporations to that location?

Not Really. Pfizer expressed interest through Spaulding & Slye and a few other corporate parks were mentioned. The state hasn't really managed this whole process right. BTW, they should be paying for the cleanup... it was their pollution after all. Why should corporations be held accountable when a corrupt and inept state government isnt?

[JimSawhill]

http://www.aboutweston.com/utopianow.html#newutop

This site keeps a ton of old newspaper articles, the one I quoted was an old New London Day article. I also saw something mentioned about the Bozrah site he bought. One of the articles had a Joe G. quote saying he wants Utopia's developments to stretch from Waterford to RI. Talk about sprawl. This would all have a huge effect on the area. We will become one giant sprawling area. I sure hope the people in Preston get their heads straight and get these guys out of this area. This stuff is no good. Sprawl, the loss of the area's character. I wish that guy would just take his idea somewhere else.

damus:

Why do you want UTOPIA and its job someplace else? I guess you think a group of ABANDONED BUILDINGS is MUCH better than a PRODUCTIVE COMPANY like UTOPIA! Yes, I do agree that we should try to LIMIT SPRAWL, but it is up to the towns to protect their character.

JimS

[JimSawhill]

After reading all this negativity about the Utopia proposal something dawned on me....a few of the people who are all for new and brighter things for Hartford and Connecticut as a whole are the EXACT SAME people who are being 100% NIMBY'S about Utopia. Now I'm not saying that the present proposal of Utopia is good or bad, nor will I pretend to be able to see this proposal from a farmers perspective because I can't. What I can do is see the PROS and CONS of this proposal, and though there are various CONS that Gentile seems to lecture his way out of when approached about, I must say that the facts given about what this project will be able to do for SE Connecticut's economy is are DEFINITE PROS. The time for forward thinkers is at hand. To think that an area with such a prime location between NYC and Boston....and with it's proximity to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun could go untouched is naive. Growth will happen whether SE CT wants it to or not. That was confirmed the day Foxwoods set up shop. The one worry I have is with the states complete lack of planning for the inevitable future because if this is going to be built we will need the proper roads and highways to with stand the influx of people to the area. But that's just my take on it....

Taylor:

I have to agree with you, these people are NIMBYs. The area of Southeastern Connecticut will be affected, but ever since Foxwoods opened -- it would NOT be the same. I believe if these people didn't want UTOPIA, they should have BOUGHT the site. The last time I checked -- I believe landowners still have the right to develop the land as they want.

JimS

[runawayjim]

Taylor:

I have to agree with you, these people are NIMBYs. The area of Southeastern Connecticut will be affected, but ever since Foxwoods opened -- it would NOT be the same. I believe if these people didn't want UTOPIA, they should have BOUGHT the site. The last time I checked -- I believe landowners still have the right to develop the land as they want.

JimS

who owns the land? i still have no answer for where this is... last i checked, it was STATE LAND. and that means that THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE have a say in WHAT GOES THERE.

[JimSawhill]

You bring up valid points, but I just don't agree with you. I'm not against development there, I am against the Orlandoization of the area. I don't think we should have to develop this in that much of a way. If Pfizer ended up putting in a $1 billion corporate heaquarters there I'd be for it. This Utopia project would have a far bigger effect.

I personally would like to see Uncasville and Norwich (where I grew up) to see a lot of development. There are hundreds of acres of undeveloped land behind St. Bernards high school in Uncasville. That town's character is more exurban right now, anyways, and Norwich likes to call itself a city, so they'd love to see development. I also think that, with or without Utopia, we should see some "driveways to the casino" put in through Preston. Finish routes 2 and 2a, limit where the exits go, and zone against the sprawling development that would like to follow.

Does anyone remember how much the people around here opposed Six Flags when they wanted to build in Preston then in North Stonington? They were concerned about traffic and the loss of the region's character. Now a place that will turn the area to another Orange County (Cali or Florida) is being proposed and people are all for it. It makes no sense to me. They are being led to believe that all the Utopia visitors are "already there" and that only a second span on the Mohegan Pequot bridge will be needed. The jobs will be "filled by area residents" (all 22,000 unemployed residents not including the jobs that aren't "head of household" types). They are being lied to by a group of developers who, by bringing in a pathetic group of actors like Ron Perlman and Cathy Moriarty-Gentile (the wife), are trying (successfully) to impress a bunch of hicks with all these famous hollywood types.

It's not like the Hartford/New Haven area doesn't have room to grow. With gas prices what they are and likely to only get higher; why not promote urbanism around the cities we have instead of encouraging sprawl with a project like Utopia that will in itself sprawl out across the region? Let's focus on lowering taxes and building that commuter rail, not Utopia. I love cities, but I also love the area I live in now.

Damus:

If you live in Preston, Ledyard, Montville or Norwich why not run for the ZONING BOARD? If you and a few others run for zoning board -- and you win -- you can vote AGAINST DEVELOPMENT. If you run and you lose, SORRY, but the voters spoke.

ORLANDOIZATION? Is that a word you invented? Do you know that the Orlando area has more MANUFACTURING JOBS then Tourism related jobs?

JimS

[JimSawhill]

I just can't imagine it flopping. Really why would it? What real reasons do people have for thinking the project will fail economically? I think the location is perfect for this type of project due to it's proximately in a very hot tourist region. New London just had a Cruise Ship in the port last week. There's so much to do in that area for tourist that I won't even bother typing it right now. Why do all of those projects work so well while this wouldn't? I am not looking to hear reasons against it for personal or quality of life issues, not with this specific question at least, but rather why do people think it wont work economically.

In my opinion this project is extremely solid and one of the most ambitious and impressive projects I have seen proposed in my entire life anywhere in the United States. It just seems like a no brainer to me. Hollywood is on the other side of the country and there is nothing even close to being equivelent on the East Coast. This project fills a void for movie makers across the country who would like to conduct major business regularly from the East Coast. This will give a lot of people the option to live and work in the Northeast when before they were banished to LaLa land. I really want to see this happen, not just for Preston/Norwich but for Connecticut and the entire Northeast. Entertainment is the largest industry in America. Let's not chase it away when it wants to set up shop in a state desperate for new energy, ideas, and industry... And New Residents, something like this could reverse the slow to non-existent population growth we have seen in Connecticut for decades. Imagine aspiring actors from all over the East Coast moving to CT to try and make it big in Connecticut. This is really an opportunity to re-invent our state the way I see it.

Tycoon:

I have to say that was one of the best post on UTOPIA! I still think we need to get tourism, but we need to RESTRUCTURE our TAXES -- by REDUCING the taxes. Yes, even sales taxes. We need to have manufacturing jobs, but Connecticut is not BUSINESS FRIENDLY.

JimS

[HartfordTycoon]

Tycoon:

I have to say that was one of the best post on UTOPIA! I still think we need to get tourism, but we need to RESTRUCTURE our TAXES -- by REDUCING the taxes. Yes, even sales taxes. We need to have manufacturing jobs, but Connecticut is not BUSINESS FRIENDLY.

JimS

I think anyone who doesn't see the merit of this project really just doesn't want to for whatever reason. Personally, I have a better time understand the arguments against it based on sprawl and quality of life issues as opposed to actually attacking the feasability of the development. That's why I think it's great that the people of Preston soley decide whether they want this or not. I think they will vote in favor of it. If not I think we may be missing a huge opportunity. I agree that this could help drive other industry in the state.

[JimSawhill]

Jerry -- numerous movie stars already live in Connecticut and have for a long time. Westport, Greenwich and the surrounding communities have long been homes of the rich and famous. So please, don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about.

BeerBeer:

I saw Michael J. Fox and Susan St. James (with her kids) shopping in a local Wal*Mart a few years back. they own homes in the LITCHFIELD HILLS.

JimS

I think anyone who doesn't see the merit of this project really just doesn't want to for whatever reason. Personally, I have a better time understand the arguments against it based on sprawl and quality of life issues as opposed to actually attacking the feasability of the development. That's why I think it's great that the people of Preston soley decide whether they want this or not. I think they will vote in favor of it. If not I think we may be missing a huge opportunity. I agree that this could help drive other industry in the state.

Tycoon:

If Preston wants it, they'll vote for it. If their zoning board veto it -- they'll have a chance to change the board next election. Preston will vote for it.

JimS

who owns the land? i still have no answer for where this is... last i checked, it was STATE LAND. and that means that THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE have a say in WHAT GOES THERE.

runaway:

Did you call your state senator and house member? What did they have to say?

JimS