Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]

[bobbarker]

I can't stand Scott Maxwell.

I read his columns and blogs daily, and I have never once heard the guy say anything positive about anything, ever. I am all for the Magic paying their fair share, but between him and Mike Thomas you would think Rich DeVoss is going around snatching old ladies purses. They are all for a PAC that is projected to run millions in the red annually, by optimistic estimates, yet dead set against the two projects that will actually make money (unless I am completely misled, if so, someone please correct me).

I just get the overwhelming impression that they are pandering to the whole "Don't give handouts to billionaires/The Magic suck let's run'em off" crowd that seem so vocal, without giving any consideration to the impact these projects will have on the image of this town.

Sorry to rant for my first post, but he is starting to drive me crazy.

[Dale]

I can't stand Scott Maxwell.

I read his columns and blogs daily, and I have never once heard the guy say anything positive about anything, ever. I am all for the Magic paying their fair share, but between him and Mike Thomas you would think Rich DeVoss is going around snatching old ladies purses. They are all for a PAC that is projected to run millions in the red annually, by optimistic estimates, yet dead set against the two projects that will actually make money (unless I am completely misled, if so, someone please correct me).

I just get the overwhelming impression that they are pandering to the whole "Don't give handouts to billionaires/The Magic suck let's run'em off" crowd that seem so vocal, without giving any consideration to the impact these projects will have on the image of this town.

Sorry to rant for my first post, but he is starting to drive me crazy.

We clearly disagree. I do not support giving handouts to billionaires.

Might do you a world of good to read the article.

Never fear, though. I'm confident that we're going to get out shiny new toys.

[demon]

We clearly disagree. I do not support giving handouts to billionaires.

Might do you a world of good to read the article.

Never fear, though. I'm confident that we're going to get out shiny new toys.

I think whether we're giving a handout to a billionare is very debatable.

[Dale]

I think whether we're giving a handout to a billionare is very debatable.

Why don't you read the Maxwell column and then get back to me ?

[Violindude]

Personally I don't think it's the place of tax dollars to go to pay for any arenas, pacs, art museums, ect. Unfortunatley it happens all the time across the country. I am not for it but I think Orlando deserves an arena and that's how the system works. What can ya do?

[Dale]

Personally I don't think it's the place of tax dollars to go to pay for any arenas, pacs, art museums, ect. Unfortunatley it happens all the time across the country. I am not for it but I think Orlando deserves an arena and that's how the system works. What can ya do?

But you clearly do not approve of the practice, and at the same time, feign helplessness. How would such an approach ever serve to reform untoward practices ?

In any case, Maxwell does not center on the tax thing so much as the miserly contribution of the Magic standing in stark contrast to the truly sacrificial contributions of, say, certain patrons of the PAC.

[bulldogger]

Sobering after-analysis of the deal by Scott Maxwell in The Sentinel today. Says not a done deal, says the Magic really stuck it to Orlando, says local officials are dreaming if they think they can raise $100 million for the PAC. Says that PAC took the biggest hit and will be scaled-back, with arena having taken the lightest hit:

www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-maxwell0306oct03,0,5072949.column

I think this may be wrong. The private pledges for the PAC were already $75 million. With the cut of public funding at $50 million to the PAC, wouldn't that mean the private funding would have to be $125 million?

[giovoni]

But you clearly do not approve of the practice, and at the same time, feign helplessness. How would such an approach ever serve to reform untoward practices ?

In any case, Maxwell does not center on the tax thing so much as the miserly contribution of the Magic standing in stark contrast to the truly sacrificial contributions of, say, certain patrons of the PAC.

If the PAC doesn't get more money they're not going to move to Tampa.. if the Citrus Bowl doesn't get any more money they really only endanger two bowl games. If the Magic don't get their arena they most likely end up leaving...or blackmailing the city more overtly. It's nice to have standards but for sports teams/arenas when there are maybe 100 other cities with markets suitable for your team that are happy to build a castle for free for them getting any contribution might seem like a victory. Denver bent over and happily asked the Denver Broncos to rape them with their new stadium, on the plus side the team not only stayed in Denver but the stadium was still downtown and not in a suburb, the tax dollars that will be reovered from the fans going to the arena really probably balance out what was given to the team for the stadium in the long run. I would imagine the same thinking about keeping the fans not only in the Orlando area but the city itself and close to a downtown that's basically being born from scratch in the next 10 years would mean it's probably a better deal than not for Orlando.

[bulldogger]

If the PAC doesn't get more money they're not going to move to Tampa.. if the Citrus Bowl doesn't get any more money they really only endanger two bowl games. If the Magic don't get their arena they most likely end up leaving...or blackmailing the city more overtly. It's nice to have standards but for sports teams/arenas when there are maybe 100 other cities with markets suitable for your team that are happy to build a castle for free for them getting any contribution might seem like a victory. Denver bent over and happily asked the Denver Broncos to rape them with their new stadium, on the plus side the team not only stayed in Denver but the stadium was still downtown and not in a suburb, the tax dollars that will be reovered from the fans going to the arena really probably balance out what was given to the team for the stadium in the long run. I would imagine the same thinking about keeping the fans not only in the Orlando area but the city itself and close to a downtown that's basically being born from scratch in the next 10 years would mean it's probably a better deal than not for Orlando.

I think this is funny stuff. In any case, tax dollars are used and then taxpaying citizens have to pay to get into the venue. Someone is making out like a bandit.

[giovoni]

I think this is funny stuff. In any case, tax dollars are used and then taxpaying citizens have to pay to get into the venue. Someone is making out like a bandit.

it's also funny that the city/state is spending billions to build more highways/lanes so that more gas guzzling cars can fit on the road and spend 2.50 - 3.00/gallon to billionaires that don't entertain you at all yet no one is really having fits over that either.

[Dale]

If the PAC doesn't get more money they're not going to move to Tampa.. if the Citrus Bowl doesn't get any more money they really only endanger two bowl games. If the Magic don't get their arena they most likely end up leaving...or blackmailing the city more overtly. It's nice to have standards but for sports teams/arenas when there are maybe 100 other cities with markets suitable for your team that are happy to build a castle for free for them getting any contribution might seem like a victory. Denver bent over and happily asked the Denver Broncos to rape them with their new stadium, on the plus side the team not only stayed in Denver but the stadium was still downtown and not in a suburb, the tax dollars that will be reovered from the fans going to the arena really probably balance out what was given to the team for the stadium in the long run. I would imagine the same thinking about keeping the fans not only in the Orlando area but the city itself and close to a downtown that's basically being born from scratch in the next 10 years would mean it's probably a better deal than not for Orlando.

And Maxwell already covered your primary fear, pointing out that the Magic need Orlando more than Orlando needs the Magic. Thus, Orlando was in a position to really hold the Magic's feet to the fire ... and appaently did not.

I think this is funny stuff. In any case, tax dollars are used and then taxpaying citizens have to pay to get into the venue. Someone is making out like a bandit.

That would be the Magic.

[giovoni]

And Maxwell already covered your primary fear, pointing out that the Magic need Orlando more than Orlando needs the Magic. Thus, Orlando was in a position to really hold the Magic's feet to the fire ... and appaently did not.

Yeah there was a city in Ohio that thought like that once about a football team.. I think they were less than pleased how that all worked out.

[Dale]

Yeah there was a city in Ohio that thought like that once about a football team.. I think they were less than pleased how that all worked out.

Maxwell also addressed that fear. Orlando is a superior market to Ohio.

We can't live in fear. Well, I guess we showed we can.

[bobbarker]

I've been reading his articles and blog posts religiously for about 3 months now, and believe me I don't agree with giving handouts to billionaires either.

My problem is with Scott Maxwell's unwillingness to say absolutely anything positive about the new arena and Citrus Bowl renovations. His extremely critical of anything having to do either of the projects. I am in no way defending DeVoss, but he is putting out some cash for this and is working with the city and county to get the arena built. Do I think he should give more? Of course, in an ideal world he would be footing the bill for the whole thing. We know that isn't going to happen, so I would want them to pay their fair share. That Magic number for Scott Maxwell is at least $120 million- 25% of the total costs.

According to his article today, he said $62 million, or 13% will be in up front cash (a week ago he was saying they were only offering $30 million, than Friday the "final number" was $50 million). Then another $10 million to the PAC. The rest, he says, isn't clear because it will be paid in operating expenses and concession/naming rights deals which have yet to be worked out. They co-signed a $100 million loan which doesn't count for anything. He doesn't even mention they will pay for any cost overrun.

The article doesn't really say anything other than "the Magic are paying more than what I said they would, but the deal isn't done yet so they are still ripping you off."

He also doesn't really discuss the Citrus Bowl in this article, although I am not sure why. Thomas and him usually take a pot shot at Monster Truck rally field any chance they get. I guess they dropped the price tag enough to get them to stop.

I am just tired of what seems (to me anyways) to be an attitude that the sports venues are not important enough for this city to really invest in. Thomas and Maxwell both support the PAC like it will turn Orlando from Pohdunkville into a truly cultured city, whereas the arena and Citrus Bowls are wastes of money because one is a Rich Man's Money Machine and the other is for three football games and a redneck gathering.

[giovoni]

Maxwell also addressed that fear. Orlando is a superior market to Ohio.

We can't live in fear. Well, I guess we showed we can.

I've read the article several times now and I don't see that he addressed that "fear" either. And while central florida taken as a whole may be a superior market than Ohio I don't see how a city with one professional sports team can trumpet itself as superior to a city that has the (replacement) Browns, Cavaliers, and Indians.. all with more tradition and ingrained fans than Orlando will ever have. Although I think as time goes on there will be more and more people who have actually grown up in Orlando and call the place home. ... from being here 18 months I just don't see that as an asset Orlando has.

I'm not trying to knock Orlando either.. I think if I cared about this city more than just an interesting place to be for 3 years I'd definitely be congratulating the city for keeping the team. From a purely me standpoint I'd like nothing more than the city to tell the Magic to piss off and have my relatives pay a couple pennies less everytime they came to visit me. I definitely think there are myriad examples of what people in this city and the entire country will give up as a result of "fear" but I think a new basketball court isn't really one of them.

[Dale]

I've been reading his articles and blog posts religiously for about 3 months now, and believe me I don't agree with giving handouts to billionaires either.

My problem is with Scott Maxwell's unwillingness to say absolutely anything positive about the new arena and Citrus Bowl renovations. His extremely critical of anything having to do either of the projects. I am in no way defending DeVoss, but he is putting out some cash for this and is working with the city and county to get the arena built. Do I think he should give more? Of course, in an ideal world he would be footing the bill for the whole thing. We know that isn't going to happen, so I would want them to pay their fair share. That Magic number for Scott Maxwell is at least $120 million- 25% of the total costs.

According to his article today, he said $62 million, or 13% will be in up front cash (a week ago he was saying they were only offering $30 million, than Friday the "final number" was $50 million). Then another $10 million to the PAC. The rest, he says, isn't clear because it will be paid in operating expenses and concession/naming rights deals which have yet to be worked out. They co-signed a $100 million loan which doesn't count for anything. He doesn't even mention they will pay for any cost overrun.

The article doesn't really say anything other than "the Magic are paying more than what I said they would, but the deal isn't done yet so they are still ripping you off."

He also doesn't really discuss the Citrus Bowl in this article, although I am not sure why. Thomas and him usually take a pot shot at Monster Truck rally field any chance they get. I guess they dropped the price tag enough to get them to stop.

I am just tired of what seems (to me anyways) to be an attitude that the sports venues are not important enough for this city to really invest in. Thomas and Maxwell both support the PAC like it will turn Orlando from Pohdunkville into a truly cultured city, whereas the arena and Citrus Bowls are wastes of money because one is a Rich Man's Money Machine and the other is for three football games and a redneck gathering.

You protest too much. No one's saying these things aren't good. Maxwell's just pointing out, correctly IMO, that the Magic's contribution was miserly. This should be in the spotlights.

I've read the article several times now and I don't see that he addressed that "fear" either. And while central florida taken as a whole may be a superior market than Ohio I don't see how a city with one professional sports team can trumpet itself as superior to a city that has the (replacement) Browns, Cavaliers, and Indians.. all with more tradition and ingrained fans than Orlando will ever have. Although I think as time goes on there will be more and more people who have actually grown up in Orlando and call the place home. ... from being here 18 months I just don't see that as an asset Orlando has.

I'm not trying to knock Orlando either.. I think if I cared about this city more than just an interesting place to be for 3 years I'd definitely be congratulating the city for keeping the team. From a purely me standpoint I'd like nothing more than the city to tell the Magic to piss off and have my relatives pay a couple pennies less everytime they came to visit me. I definitely think there are myriad examples of what people in this city and the entire country will give up as a result of "fear" but I think a new basketball court isn't really one of them.

Perhaps we should have told the Magic to 'piss off'. Might have gotten us a further $25 million.

[Violindude]

But you clearly do not approve of the practice, and at the same time, feign helplessness. How would such an approach ever serve to reform untoward practices ?

In any case, Maxwell does not center on the tax thing so much as the miserly contribution of the Magic standing in stark contrast to the truly sacrificial contributions of, say, certain patrons of the PAC.

I'm not feigning, I am genuine in my belief. I believe that private enterprises could build all of this themselves since they'll be making the money. I can see giving them a loan maybe that they would pay back with interest! but if tax dollars are paying for it why do the people who paid the taxes (i.e. the tourists in this case) have to pay to see the game when it finally opens? I am just saying that's the way it should be but clearly that's not the way it is. I want an arena and I wish it wasn't through corporate welfare but people will use the system and until the system is more pro capitalism and thats the way it's gonna be.

Edited October 3, 2006 by Violindude

[bulldogger]

What would really be funny is if DeVos gave more in contribution to the PAC and got naming rights to it and then made a profit on the Magic and the new arena.

[orlandonative]

I've glanced through these posts very briefly, as there have been quite a few in a short time period. My thoughts personally are fairly simple but also tend to be a bit biased so I will suffice it to say that I too love shiney new toys, so bring it on. In the end I think it is safe to say that someone always feels like they are getting screwed.

This whole debate kind of reminds me of the time when we were discussing Cameron Kuhn getting city incentives for The Plaza.

[Dale]

I've glanced through these posts very briefly, as there have been quite a few in a short time period. My thoughts personally are fairly simple but also tend to be a bit biased so I will suffice it to say that I too love shiney new toys, so bring it on. In the end I think it is safe to say that someone always feels like they are getting screwed.

This whole debate kind of reminds me of the time when we were discussing Cameron Kuhn getting city incentives for The Plaza.

And don't get me started on Cameron Kuhn !

Actually, the only truly silly aspect of this debate is the tendency to shout down or make light of calls for more fiscal responsibility from folks who also like shiny toys.

[OrlandoMagic3]

any updates on the EC? i heard that on the news htere was some disagreement b/w county comishes

Edited October 4, 2006 by PMWMagic

[demon]

Why don't you read the Maxwell column and then get back to me ?

I was under the impression that DeVos was on the hook for any cost overruns & if the tourism money dried up. In essence he's putting a lot on the line. I believe Maxwell caps it at 100 million but still that is potentially a lot of money and I doubt no other owner has done that. If someone can clarify that it would help me make a decision, right now I'm a bit too tired to research it.

When it's all said & done DeVos won't own this building the city will. Should he get some of the $$ from the naming rights? When you consider that it will be the Magic on TV when the events center's name is announced and the name will be on the floor when the Magic play maybe he does.

[Dale]

I was under the impression that DeVos was on the hook for any cost overruns & if the tourism money dried up. In essence he's putting a lot on the line. I believe Maxwell caps it at 100 million but still that is potentially a lot of money and I doubt no other owner has done that. If someone can clarify that it would help me make a decision, right now I'm a bit too tired to research it.

When it's all said & done DeVos won't own this building the city will. Should he get some of the $$ from the naming rights? When you consider that it will be the Magic on TV when the events center's name is announced and the name will be on the floor when the Magic play maybe he does.

Maxwell pegs the Magic's actual contribution at $62 million. This includes $52 million cash and $10 million donation to the PAC. He contrasts this with the PAC's requirement to raise $100 million in private contributions. The PAC donations constitute an actual sacrifice, whereas DeVos will profit handsomely from ticket sales.

He also points out that whereas the Magic were only required to trim the cost of its facility by $5 million, the PAC group were required to trim theirs by $50 million. Thus, predictions that the PAC would be hardest hit were spot-on.

Mike Thomas says that the Magic's contribution falls short, but is better than the embarassingly bad predicted $40 million. And given that negotiations are ongoing, he much prefers that the Magic contribute an actual $100 million upfront, which he has identified as the minimum contribution of recent arena deals in other NBA cities.

[shardoon]

what do you think the chances are for getting disney to make a substantial contribution to the PAC....... maybe even to the amount of naming rights?

i think it would be great to see disney make a contribution in their east coast base just like they did at their west coast base.

[Dale]

what do you think the chances are for getting disney to make a substantial contribution to the PAC....... maybe even to the amount of naming rights?

i think it would be great to see disney make a contribution in their east coast base just like they did at their west coast base.

Seems like a no-brainer for a Disney or a Universal.

Or a Brighthouse. Oh, yeah. They're probably tapped-out.