Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]

[bic]

Unless the new arena is located far away from downtown, there would be no need for the TD Waterhouse Centre. As much as I like the building, demolish it, sell the land, and redevelop it.

[JRS1]

I agree we need a new arena.

Regarding Miami, the new Pelli designed PAC was the catalyst for new development, not AA. Bayfront was already there for years prior.

And in Tampa, Channelside was there before the STP Times Forum, unless I'm mistaken. And that venue is sandwiched next to huge parking decks. And the new Marriot et al. were built b/c of the CC.

ANd in ORL, I wonder what will have the bigger impact: the new arena or the new PAC?

I'll tell you what DT needs: Marriott is closing soon. THey apparently have plans for a new 300 room hotel. ORL needs that hotel with conference center and a new PAC and new Arena, preferably tied into each other somehow, but I doubt the later will happen.

[Magicfan95]

JRS, both Tampa and Miami have had more growth since their arenas have been built than any period beforehand. Bayside was there and most built however, it's growth skyrocketed in 2000 when several projects were planned and many condos have been built and are planned. The Bayside marketplace was fully opened in 2001.

Tampa was a bunch of dry docks and a bunch of nothing when St. Pete Times Forum was announced in 1994. While the arena wasn't the sole venue of growth many have attributed it's location as being a major catalyst for growth. They have also said the Florida Aquirum was partly responsible, as it opened a a year before SPT Forum in 1995. Since then they have had several hotels, shops, and condos. There was planning for a channelside rennovation, which did not take off until after the building was planned and built. The Channelside Entertainment Complex was finished in 2001, along with the Marriott on the bay.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Magicfan95

[wally2169]

JRS, both Tampa and Miami have had more growth since their arenas have been built than any period beforehand. Bayside was there and most built however, it's growth skyrocketed in 2000 when several projects were planned and many condos have been built and are planned. The Bayside marketplace was fully opened in 2001.

Tampa was a bunch of dry docks and a bunch of nothing when St. Pete Times Forum was announced in 1994. While the arena wasn't the sole venue of growth many have attributed it's location as being a major catalyst for growth. They have also said the Florida Aquirum was partly responsible, as it opened a a year before SPT Forum in 1995. Since then they have had several hotels, shops, and condos. There was planning for a channelside rennovation, which did not take off until after the building was planned and built. The Channelside Entertainment Complex was finished in 2001, along with the Marriott on the bay.

I agree with you completely on this

I spent my teenage years in Baltimore and I can distinctly remeber the Camden Yards area of the past and it was not pretty

The Inner Harbor in Baltimore was about the only thing that made that area of downtown worth going to at all

When Oriole Park and a few years later, M&T Stadium (for the Ravens) were built and opened, it 100% revitalized the Camden area

That entire section of town now has upgraded the ratty old warehouses into luxurious rental/condo lofts, the street level is now restaurants, shops, etc

It ties directly with the city Convention Center expansion which now ties directly to the Inner Harbor

That entire section of town is now the most chic area of the city and both stadiums made it happen

I agree that a new arena O-Town will not automatically be the economic engine of the city but over the years that will follow, much more development will come and link it directly to the new Church Street, Uptown and Lake Eola

The benefits will come long term and the new arena will be a major driving force behind it

We need this new arena, no question

[Violindude]

So is this just guessing or do we think there will be a new Orena? That article said by 2008 does that even sound possible?

[wally2169]

I agree we need a new arena.

Regarding Miami, the new Pelli designed PAC was the catalyst for new development, not AA. Bayfront was already there for years prior.

And in Tampa, Channelside was there before the STP Times Forum, unless I'm mistaken. And that venue is sandwiched next to huge parking decks. And the new Marriot et al. were built b/c of the CC.

ANd in ORL, I wonder what will have the bigger impact: the new arena or the new PAC?

I'll tell you what DT needs: Marriott is closing soon. THey apparently have plans for a new 300 room hotel. ORL needs that hotel with conference center and a new PAC and new Arena, preferably tied into each other somehow, but I doubt the later will happen.

I also agree with you on this as well

Short term, I say the new PAC because Bob Carr is so ridiculously outdated that the new PAC will be a curiosity for a considerable period of time

As bad as the TD Waterhouse is, it's not as outdated as Bob Carr so it might not have such a huge thunderous impact right away but I do think that once Magic fans grow to love it, more music acts come, more events in general get held in the new arena and more development such as new condos and office space comes along, the new arena will have a huge impact over the long term

Perhaps the new Marriott could potentially be built near the new arena, we can start seeing the dividends roll in sooner rather than later

I disagree.Play at td waterhouse till new arena is built.Then the td waterhouse can be used for other things.It would be a waste of mney to tear it down.

But do you think we can really support 2 arenas in town though?

Miami has 3 times the population and they're having issues getting bookings at the old Miami Arena, everybody is going to the new one

[JRS1]

JRS, both Tampa and Miami have had more growth since their arenas have been built than any period beforehand. Bayside was there and most built however, it's growth skyrocketed in 2000 when several projects were planned and many condos have been built and are planned. The Bayside marketplace was fully opened in 2001.

Tampa was a bunch of dry docks and a bunch of nothing when St. Pete Times Forum was announced in 1994. While the arena wasn't the sole venue of growth many have attributed it's location as being a major catalyst for growth. They have also said the Florida Aquirum was partly responsible, as it opened a a year before SPT Forum in 1995. Since then they have had several hotels, shops, and condos. There was planning for a channelside rennovation, which did not take off until after the building was planned and built. The Channelside Entertainment Complex was finished in 2001, along with the Marriott on the bay.

I don't deny what you are saying, only that the Miami example is different.

Miami has had the Metromover northern extension the last 15 years or so. THey've had proposals for condo's like One Miami and BOR for a decade or more. THe condo boom ala interest rates and the era and the PAC were the main catalyst there, not AA. AA was there for a few years w/o any proposals slated b/c of its proximity to them. When AA was built, Miami Beach had the big projects. So did Brickell Key. Then Miami Beach City Hall changed the height restrictions and all of the sudden, 50 story condo proposals started popping up- most with reference to the new PAC's proximity and their desire to redevelop Biscayne north of the old Everglades hotel and up to where Blue was built.

I've tracked Miami development for years. AA was not the main impetus there. Granted, it didn't hurt. Miami also is seeing heavy redevelopment at Dadeland and near Metrorail stations as well. My point is I think the PAC will have a bigger impact than the new arena. THe PAC in Miami was solely responsible for projects suchas Quantum, Opera Tower, 1800 Club, Marquis, Ten Mus. Park, Marina Blue, Paramount, the failed Opus, a Museum Park proposal, and nearby Midtown redevelopment.

THe PAC in Orlando should be considered priority #1 and the arena a close 2nd. I guarantee you there won't be that much redevelopment around the new arena when built. If it replaces the TD Waterhouse site, then if Cityplace is built, that doesn't count, b/c that proposal has been around for a while before this new arena talk. Besides, the talk is of redevelopment of downtown as a whole, not of the construction of a new arena to spurn redevelopment of DT ORL. ORL already has all these new urban infill projects and proposals regardless of a new arena being built.

I think a new arena makes us more competative, but its a hype thing as well. THe OCCC, on the other hand, is not. We are now seeing the development of tons of hotel rooms, the redo of Pointe Orlando, and many proposals on the near horizon b/c of the new center. A new arena will not have that kind of impact. No way, unless its tied into a hotel/CC like I said earlier. Kind of like Atlanta...

THat being said, I am torn between the PAC and Arena. I actually think that BOTH are needed to complete the puzzle in DT ORL.

[grummster]

It's unfortunate though that the two venues aren't going into areas that could then easily support growth directly near it, I'm not talking like the Citrus bowl where it is near nothing at all, but the PAC will be boxed in by already recently developed parcels (CNL, City Hall, Westin, etc.) and the Orena will likely still be on the opposite side of I-4 as the CBD. Thus neither is going to have developers paying the city incentives to build near them before they're done like Miami.

HOWEVER, I am fully in support of both to the max along with the Citrus Bowl, with the Orena coming first then PAC the Stadium

Edited July 13, 2006 by grummster

[speck76]

If they build a new one, the old one will become a very potential building for redevelopment. Hopefully into a world class museum, downtown conference center or a mall.

The old facility needs to be quickly demolished, and the land sold to a private developer (so it gets taxed).....

The last thing we need is a long drawn out process on "what to do with the O-Rena"

I'll tell you what DT needs: Marriott is closing soon. THey apparently have plans for a new 300 room hotel. ORL needs that hotel with conference center and a new PAC and new Arena, preferably tied into each other somehow, but I doubt the later will happen.

Downtown Orlando does not need a large conference center.....

[JRS1]

You all want a bold proposal (unless someone has already said it before)?

Here it goes: Build the new arena on the Pizzuti block-- then, you would have Lynx next door- future train terminal; and the lot would even have room for a slender tall hotel tower. put a couple of skywalks across Amelia for the parking deck and a mini-conference center for the new hotel.

Its a great idea... B/c of Orange, it would develop the hec out of the whole area.

or... not.

As for a conference center, Former Radisson has meeting roms as does Marriott. We lost Expo Center. I think that those meeting areas were rationed based on 20 year old population numbers. DT needs a decent-sized facility to compete with other DT's in this state. Nothing too huge, but adequate.

[bulldogger]

You all want a bold proposal (unless someone has already said it before)?

Here it goes: Build the new arena on the Pizzuti block-- then, you would have Lynx next door- future train terminal; and the lot would even have room for a slender tall hotel tower. put a couple of skywalks across Amelia for the parking deck and a mini-conference center for the new hotel.

Its a great idea... B/c of Orange, it would develop the hec out of the whole area.

or... not.

As for a conference center, Former Radisson has meeting roms as does Marriott. We lost Expo Center. I think that those meeting areas were rationed based on 20 year old population numbers. DT needs a decent-sized facility to compete with other DT's in this state. Nothing too huge, but adequate.

That's a good idea. If EA falls through.

[wally2169]

Well, here is something bolder:

Relocate Orlando Sentinel headquarters between Orange and Rosalind, maybe let them build a high rise on the other side of I-4, maybe the location where the police headquarters are after they vacate, tear that building down and build a 25-30 floor high-rise with a nice plaza and the facilities for printing and shipping the paper in 2-3 floor building behind

Then take the land of the old Sentinel buildings, tear them all down and build the new arena there

Those couple of blocks is more than enough land to hold both an arena with the front facing the OC Courthouse and then a huge parking garage facing Colonial

This would give the arena major visibility in downtown and coincide with the Pizutti and the rest of downtown development

I know this is probably impractical but like I said, more than enough land to do it and you cannot put a price tag on that level of exposure

[slapdash09]

Well, here is something bolder:

...Those couple of blocks is more than enough land to hold both an arena with the front facing the OC Courthouse and then a huge parking garage facing Colonial...

i like that idea!

but even right now colonial at rush-hour is horrible, and it seems like colonial needs to be widened to at least six lanes (is that possible? would require lots of tearing down ... and would take up some of that orlando sentinel land ... and the 7-11...)

how could we handle the traffic flow problem any big new development facing colonial could create?

[JRS1]

Well, here is something bolder:

Relocate Orlando Sentinel headquarters between Orange and Rosalind, maybe let them build a high rise on the other side of I-4, maybe the location where the police headquarters are after they vacate, tear that building down and build a 25-30 floor high-rise with a nice plaza and the facilities for printing and shipping the paper in 2-3 floor building behind

Then take the land of the old Sentinel buildings, tear them all down and build the new arena there

Those couple of blocks is more than enough land to hold both an arena with the front facing the OC Courthouse and then a huge parking garage facing Colonial

This would give the arena major visibility in downtown and coincide with the Pizutti and the rest of downtown development

I know this is probably impractical but like I said, more than enough land to do it and you cannot put a price tag on that level of exposure

I like it.

As for widening Colonial-- at least for westbound traffic, I think people need to start using Washington St. more. Its faster. I don't think there's enough easement to do anything on Colonial. OBT and the tracks is a very bad one-two punch.

[speck76]

As for a conference center, Former Radisson has meeting roms as does Marriott. We lost Expo Center. I think that those meeting areas were rationed based on 20 year old population numbers. DT needs a decent-sized facility to compete with other DT's in this state. Nothing too huge, but adequate.

Nobody wants to meet in Downtown Orlando...

Ok....let me rephrase....

"No decent group that brings in a lot of money to the area wants to meet in Downtown Orlando"

The hotels downtown do great with Comic Conventions (local) and the Florida Association of Phlebology.....but major groups will meet at the resorts in the Attractions area, or at the coastal resorts in other areas of the state.

Sure Tampa has a facility, but it gets a large number of "Elks clubs" and groups like this.....in Orlando, these groups would rather meet at the second tier resorts where they can all be in 1 hotel, don't have to pay for parking, and are close to WDW.

Miami's facility sits empty most of the time, Ft Lauderdale's does too....

[wally2169]

At the very least, widening Colonial would be a logistical nightmare, would require acquisition of businesses, tearing them down and having to do something significant with the I-4 interchange

Traffic around I-4 at Colonial with the existing arena during an event is bad enough but something like this could trigger some much needed road improvements

I think the Sentinel, which is a highy regarded paper in this country, deserves a better facility like you would see for the NY Times or LA Times

Why not build a new one in downtown on the west side of I-4?

A nice medium height high-rise with "Orlando Sentinel" sprawled across the top would elevate the paper to a new level

Let's tear down their old complex, build the new arena, hell maybe have the front face Orange like you would see with FedEx arena in Memphis.

Who knows, that kind of thing could lead to geater development possibilities like getting BellSouth to move out of the location by Pizutti as well as the ridiculous high-rise next to Dynetech, let them consolidate to a nice new skyscraper in one location and develop that area of Orange which will emulate Pizutti and the Orange Court Apts that are coming

It would also get me to stop beotching about the height issue of 385 N. Orange

Just the thought of that gets me hopping

To also touch base on a prior post from someone concerning location of PAC, I think putting it in City Commons is the best idea possible

This will enable us to get a CNL 3 and will also give some kind of evening activity to City Commons which at the moment does not exist

It's a waste of space by City Hall right now and does not deserve to be

[sunshine]

How about just build a multistory stadium incorparate all arena, hotel, garage, condo, retails and the pac all in one super huge and tall building?

Oh I forgot we are not in Dubai.

[jack]

Puzutti is too small by itself for an arena. But it would be a nice location. We need more conference space and will get one sooner then later.

[orlandonative]

Wow. Thats good stuff wally.

I hadn't been reading this thread much as of today, but finally sat down and took the time. Too say the least, I have seen some great, quality ideas.

The Orlando Sentinel definetly has to go. It's pretty clear that betwen the hours of sundown and early morning that area becomes a no-mans land and encourages a buffer zone between the thriving core of downtown and the "Uptown " that we are hedging so many bets on currently. Creating an Arena complex in that location facing Colonial would actually look nice. Provided you could create a large enough setback between 50 and the complex while beefing up the east west running streets it might work. I think with an extended Lymmo service running to that location much as it does to the current Arena, it might also encourage people to park other garages throughout the core allowing pedestrians to enter the city rather than choosing a side of I-4 to visit. To me, the key is getting the people out easily who want to go home (families, etc.) and allowing those inclined to stay out an easy way to make that happen.

I guess we will have to wait and see. The only problem that I can imagine is the rising costs of building these facilities. The price of materials and labor have continued to increase despite no major shortages of either since Katrina. Major material ecalation (steel, concrete, gyp. board) have increased on average of every 90 days without fail. All indications at this point are that this will continue. The only way to combat this is for developers to stroke checks at the beginning of the project leaving risk on the supply houses. At best we could excpect construction when? Two years? By then who the hell knows where things will be. If history is any indication the outlook is not so bright.

[bulldogger]

I think the Sentinel, which is a highy regarded paper in this country (maybe in this county), deserves a better facility like you would see for the NY Times or LA Times

Edited July 13, 2006 by bulldogger

[speck76]

e great, quality ideas.

The Orlando Sentinel definetly has to go.

I could not agree more

oh....you probably meant the building...

Can we get rid of both the paper, and the building?

[gumpking1]

The old facility needs to be quickly demolished, and the land sold to a private developer (so it gets taxed).....

The last thing we need is a long drawn out process on "what to do with the O-Rena"

Downtown Orlando does not need a large conference center.....

Why is everyone so ready to tear down the td waterhouse.I still think it could be utilized for something.Maybe ucf could use it in some way not as an arena but something else.It would be a shame to tear it down.

You all want a bold proposal (unless someone has already said it before)?

Here it goes: Build the new arena on the Pizzuti block-- then, you would have Lynx next door- future train terminal; and the lot would even have room for a slender tall hotel tower. put a couple of skywalks across Amelia for the parking deck and a mini-conference center for the new hotel.

Its a great idea... B/c of Orange, it would develop the hec out of the whole area.

or... not.

As for a conference center, Former Radisson has meeting roms as does Marriott. We lost Expo Center. I think that those meeting areas were rationed based on 20 year old population numbers. DT needs a decent-sized facility to compete with other DT's in this state. Nothing too huge, but adequate.

Is that site large enough for a arena?

[JRS1]

Is that site large enough for a arena?

google map it. it could easily handle the existing arena, let alone a larger one-- its just that parking would have to be across the street.

[Magicfan95]

Just to note UCF has had some interest in the old TDW, but I think it's wearing off. The school wants to try and rid a commutter image and putting campus buildings off campus tends to do that.

As for the arena, there is no way it's going downtown in the MIDDLE of everything. Parking is a major money maker for these venues and by building the venue in such an area your limiting the immediate parking drastically.

A more realistic location will be on the outskirts of downtown, as was mentioned recently Dyer and co. are planning to announce the exact areas soon.

As for the Sentinel, the Tribune Co. is one of the stingiest companies on the planet. So long as the current Sentinel offices meet their needs, they aren't moving.

[wally2169]

Wow. Thats good stuff wally.

I hadn't been reading this thread much as of today, but finally sat down and took the time. Too say the least, I have seen some great, quality ideas.

The Orlando Sentinel definetly has to go. It's pretty clear that betwen the hours of sundown and early morning that area becomes a no-mans land and encourages a buffer zone between the thriving core of downtown and the "Uptown " that we are hedging so many bets on currently. Creating an Arena complex in that location facing Colonial would actually look nice. Provided you could create a large enough setback between 50 and the complex while beefing up the east west running streets it might work. I think with an extended Lymmo service running to that location much as it does to the current Arena, it might also encourage people to park other garages throughout the core allowing pedestrians to enter the city rather than choosing a side of I-4 to visit. To me, the key is getting the people out easily who want to go home (families, etc.) and allowing those inclined to stay out an easy way to make that happen.

I guess we will have to wait and see. The only problem that I can imagine is the rising costs of building these facilities. The price of materials and labor have continued to increase despite no major shortages of either since Katrina. Major material ecalation (steel, concrete, gyp. board) have increased on average of every 90 days without fail. All indications at this point are that this will continue. The only way to combat this is for developers to stroke checks at the beginning of the project leaving risk on the supply houses. At best we could excpect construction when? Two years? By then who the hell knows where things will be. If history is any indication the outlook is not so bright.

Thanks, I appreciate the kudos

Believe it or not, I have some very unique ideas for downtown for future developments that require razing a few areas but sadly to say, since I am not a billionaire developer, it will probably forever remain a fantasy

I absolutely love your idea of an arena complex that could include an arena, minor league ballpark and who knows what else

Look what they did in JAX, back in 2000 voters approved a 1/2 cent sales tax increase and they got a beautiful new arena, a beautiful new minor league stadium for the JAX Suns, a beautiful new public library and massive upgrades/renovations to Alltell stadium just in time for hosting the SuperBowl

All of this is in one cluster in the old JAX shipyards and its awesome

I am incredibly jealous for my friends that still live in JAX

Amazing isn't it, JAX residents vote FOR a sales tax increase for new arenas to party and hang out in yet Orlando residents vote AGAINST a sales tax increase to 12 lane I-4 for about 30 miles

Not to mention the fact Tampa residents voted FOR a sales tax increase for the Bucs to get Raymond James Staidum, and this was BEFORE the team changed logo, BEFORE they got rid of the crappy orange/white uniforms and 2 seasons BEFORE the team started making regular playoff appearances for the 1st time in 20+ years

What the hell is wrong with us?!?!?!?!?!?!