Morgan Square Redesign

[vicupstate]

8 hours ago, djh1963 said:

It doesn't look like any of them address the issue of accessibility for those of us with mobility issues.  I guess we are not important to the city.

 

 

No matter what is eventually done, it will have to be ADA compliant. 

[camtology]

14 hours ago, gman430 said:

https://www.wspa.com/news/three-designs-revealed-for-morgan-square-redevelopment/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR1T_2UzLRWIUzD2HinJbr3GGW0ZiYkvtUbu-FUB07s6TPc-7oKVkq0Plb0&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

absolutely love the first of these, especially the stage being built on Morgan square, very much reminds me of the amphitheater in Greenville next to the river downtown

[NotNotSanti]

What I liked is that while they were open to people 'voting' their favorite, they were more looking to see what we liked from each concept, what our concerns also were for each one, all to them merge them into something that contains the best from each. The QR code that has been up in Morgan Square will now direct people to the three different options, so that we may leave our comments for each one. There was even talk of having a little coffee shop in the Square, which I am in favor off.

Regarding ADA compliance, that is one of their priorities, as they want to make sure there are no 'obstacles' provided by the design, whereas now some areas can be blocked off or be unaccessible due to steps, walls, and the like.

Both Dunbar and Main will be 'mostly' closed off, in that it won't allow for thru traffic, but can be opened up in case emergency providers need to get to the front of the buildings.

[hub-city]

I wasn't able to attend, but would love to see some pics of the designs.  It's hard to get a good look off of the articles and videos. 

I'm still a little concerned as to what this will do to the main street businesses from Converse - Church streets.  Coming from the Eastside might not be too bad, but if you are coming from the Westside, there doesn't seem to be any good way to navigate over there (yes I know right on Henry, left on Broad, left on Church, right on Main).   Why would you want to come up 29, when you can take the St. John Street extension...  I'm old enough to remember the "great" idea the city had to make that area a "Main Street Mall" and closed it off to traffic.  It killed that whole stretch and is seems to be coming back to life now.  Would just hate to see it hurt again.

[djh1963]

Totally Agree, Once someone is on Broad St they are not going to turn back on to Church and then back on to Main. We are diverting people around downtown AGAIN.

 

[westsider28]

14 minutes ago, djh1963 said:

Totally Agree, Once someone is on Broad St they are not going to turn back on to Church and then back on to Main. We are diverting people around downtown AGAIN.

Downtown is more than just Main Street.  And it should be the ONE place in the entire county focused on PEOPLE rather than CARS.  Park on Broad or Magnolia or Dunbar (and associated lots and decks) and WALK.  Otherwise just go to Walmart (which you'll likely have to walk just as far anyway from the huge lot and in the huge store).

And the Main Street Mall didn't kill downtown, the nationwide abandonment of downtowns did that.  Today is totally different.  Downtown is full of thriving businesses, it has hundreds of residents now, and people WANT this extra space without having to worry about cars.

The main thing that needs to be done as part of the Square redesign to help East Main is to make a safer pedestrian crossing experience across Church.

Edited April 27, 2023 by westsider28

[hub-city]

Actually, my concerns have very little to do with walking to shop; it’s more about knowing that there is even a place to go shop.  Although I’m not a Walmart shopper, I do know that they usually have a huge sign that says “Walmart” as well as other shops in the complex.  These stores have nothing similar.  Many rely on “drive by traffic”. If someone from out of town comes to an event at Morgan Square unless they explore on foot, they have no way of knowing that they are steps away from 2 nice ice cream shops, toy store, hiking store, outdoor dining, plus many other shops.

Maybe if the new designs could include some signage or even a directory of some sort, it would throw those businesses some love.  I also believe that if the proposed development happens, then that will help a great deal.

I’m not opposed to closing the street, but don’t want the city to spend a great deal of money helping some businesses while ignoring others…

[roads-scholar]

 Look, I'm old enough to remember the Main Street Mall and the city's efforts to redirect traffic onto Dunbar and Broad Streets.   

First, let me be clear.   The Main Street Mall DID NOT kill downtown Spartanburg.   Downtown was barely alive when the mall was built and continued to decline during its existence.   Moreover, Westgate Mall opened just a year after it opened.   A few years later Hillcrest Mall opened.  Talk about bad timing!

Back to Morgan Square.   How long has it been since cars drove through it?  And, what business has been hurt by that?   The answer is NONE.

Driving across town isn't difficult OR confusing.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by roads-scholar

[Spartan]

Dropping these here for those who don't click the link above. 

Overall I like the direction they are going. They appear to be focusing on a hybrid design that allows some vehicle circulation while deemphasizing cars and creating a lot more space for pedestrians. They conveniently have 1MSQ placed over Dunbar Street so you can't see what is happening with the elevation change, so that's probably my biggest question at this point. I don't see how you maintain Dunbar Street at its current grade and not have a large retaining wall like the one that is there today. I was really hoping they would remove that block of Dunbar altogether and just expand the plaza space right up to the front door of 1MSQ.

For anyone driving into downtown, there is ample parking right off of St John St from east or west... not sure I understand the concerns about that. Nobody drives through downtown on Main Street if they have somewhere to be across town.  I mean, I do it, but I'm weird. It probably adds 5-10 mins to my drive when I do that. More importantly, though, is should we be designing our downtown for people whose destination is elsewhere?

I personally like 1 or 3, but not the one with the large structure. A well designed small pavilion for a band or a famers market or something might be ok, but don't overwhelm the space with a structure unless you're going to put one of the historic buildings that was removed back up. It's such a small space as it is, it should be left open and flexible to the maximum extent possible.

 

[djh1963]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:57 PM, westsider28 said:

Downtown is more than just Main Street.  And it should be the ONE place in the entire county focused on PEOPLE rather than CARS.  Park on Broad or Magnolia or Dunbar (and associated lots and decks) and WALK.  Otherwise just go to Walmart (which you'll likely have to walk just as far anyway from the huge lot and in the huge store).

And the Main Street Mall didn't kill downtown, the nationwide abandonment of downtowns did that.  Today is totally different.  Downtown is full of thriving businesses, it has hundreds of residents now, and people WANT this extra space without having to worry about cars.

The main thing that needs to be done as part of the Square redesign to help East Main is to make a safer pedestrian crossing experience across Church.

Right now most of the shops and restaurants are on Main Street maybe that will change in a few years but right now the bulk of downtown is Main Street, I use to walk all over downtown but since my back surgery that is much more difficult, thus the reason I do not go to the Square as often as I use to because even walking from the Church Street garage is difficult. Walmart at least has handicap parking, near the store.

 

[westsider28]

On Monday's City Council agenda: Presentation of Morgan Square Improvement Design Concept

I presume this is some combination of the 3 designs previously shown, along with tweaks based on public comments.  Unfortunately, the design concept isn't in the agenda packet or on the website, so I guess we'll have to wait until Monday's meeting to see the design.

[NotNotSanti]

𝐌𝐎𝐑𝐆𝐀𝐍 𝐒𝐐𝐔𝐀𝐑𝐄 𝐑𝐄𝐍𝐃𝐄𝐑𝐈𝐍𝐆𝐒 are 𝐇𝐄𝐑𝐄!

The 𝐟𝐫𝐮𝐢𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐲𝐞𝐚𝐫'𝐬 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤, 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑚𝑢𝑐ℎ 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑖𝑛𝑝𝑢𝑡, has produced the following renderings and design for our central Morgan Square, our 𝐇𝐔𝐁 of common life.

𝐂𝐎𝐑𝐄 𝐏𝐈𝐄𝐂𝐄𝐒

𝐌𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐃𝐮𝐧𝐛𝐚𝐫 𝐒𝐭𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐭𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐜𝐥𝐨𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐟𝐟 to daily traffic.

- Can still be used by emergency vehicles.

- Could be opened up again in the future.

- Traffic can still flow along Spring and Magnolia Street.

𝐋𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 for safety and ambiance.

- Creates an 18 hour space.

𝐒𝐨𝐟𝐭 "𝐞𝐝𝐠𝐞𝐬" are all around.

- Make the square more inviting.

𝐕𝐢𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐨𝐫'𝐬 𝐊𝐢𝐨𝐬𝐤 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐏𝐮𝐛𝐥𝐢𝐜 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐨𝐦𝐬.

- Includes storage and a canopy area.

- Next to a flat area.

A 𝐰𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐟𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐮𝐫𝐞!

- Can be turned off.

- Prevents it from being a safety hazard.

𝐓𝐞𝐫𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐞𝐬 for sitting and gathering together.

- Helps with grading.

- Versus benches, which can give an empty look.

𝐃𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐞𝐥 𝐌𝐨𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐧 𝐌𝐨𝐧𝐮𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 remains in place.

A 𝐬𝐩𝐚𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐩𝐮𝐛𝐥𝐢𝐜 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞𝐬.

- Yet not envisioned as the main place for music venues.

An 𝐚𝐫𝐞𝐚 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐝𝐨𝐨𝐫 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐮𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐭 𝐬𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠.

- Less than is there now.

- Still would make use of where parking spots are there now.

A 𝟕𝟎% 𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐬𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝐠𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐧 𝐬𝐩𝐚𝐜𝐞.

- Yet still brings in an increase of pedestrian space.

𝐈𝐌𝐌𝐄𝐃𝐈𝐀𝐓𝐄 𝐍𝐄𝐗𝐓 𝐒𝐓𝐄𝐏𝐒

1 - Have 𝐝𝐢𝐬𝐜𝐮𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬 about maintenance and operational considerations with city staff.

2 - Carry out needed 𝐭𝐞𝐜𝐡𝐧𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤.

3 - Look more closely at 𝐜𝐨𝐬𝐭𝐬.

4 - Continue to work with business and stakeholders to address 𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐫 𝐝𝐞𝐭𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐬.

[hub-city]

I’m hoping that the finished project will look better than the design pics.  Looks like a lot of hard space with a few “kidney bean” green spaces.  That space also deserves a better water feature than a splash pad.  I don’t see how Magnolia can turn onto Main, but that’s okay I think.  We could use Magnolia just to accommodate garage access.  They really need to upgrade Green street…

[Spartan]

I'm not a fan of modern design/aesthetics, and I wish it had a more traditional feel that adds to the vibe of downtown instead of clashing with it. I am also not thrilled about the amount of trees they are removing. It's been 20ish years, since the last redo, and the trees are just now starting to provide good shade (well, the ones in the center of the square). The curvilinear terraces and green pockets just don't feel right to me. IMO materials are going to make/break this project. If they use a lot of granite and good brick pavers then it might turn out ok.

I do like the design principles. I think their core concepts are solid and reflect what people told them. I like the hybrid street design that can be opened or closed... though I'm a bit unclear about what happens to Magnolia? I'm assuming traffic control would be through bollards of some sort. I like the amount of hardscape to green space... but I think the green space that's there is just for decoration, so I hope they do something better than grass (aside from the performance lawn area). I think green space is great, but in a space this small we need more hardscape for people to gather for larger events... think 'European village square' and not 'suburban front lawn.'

I'll be interested to see how they decide to pay for this and the ultimate timeline. Feels like we're a few years away from anything breaking ground.

[djh1963]

I would like to know what others think of how the Core project will affect where people want to gather in the future. I like that design much better and think it will draw more people to that area. This design just isn't very appealing to me.

[gman430]

There’s a reason Greenville and Charleston haven’t closed off their Main Streets to traffic. This is stupid. Waste of taxpayer dollars. Leave it the way it is I say. Nothing wrong with the current Morgan Square. 

[roads-scholar]

Personally I'd like to see Dunbar and Main permanently closed but leave the rest of the square alone.  The trees, benches, and other aesthetics seem to working fine.  

[spartanburgh]

This design seems to lose the character and uniqueness of the square to me.  I say change out the grass circle area (ice rink area) to

a hard surface that has moveable benches and some shade/rain cover so the rink can return without the effort of resodding each time.

Leave the rest alone, but extend the square West to tie into the planned streetscape of W Main St.  with similar streetscape, islands

and landscaping that already exists. 

[NotNotSanti]

I love the addition of public restrooms, the 18 hour approach, the fact that it's easier to stroll through the different areas. As someone who favors the closures of the streets as I was hoping the amount left to outside dining seating would be more than what is apparent from the designs. Not too crazy about the more modern vibe given the architecture of current buildings, though I can see it tying in the newer ones that are planned. Mixed bag for me, as I imagine any re-envisioning would be.  

[westsider28]

The Morgan Square enhancement plan webpage has been updated.  There's a presentation document on the right with renderings, public comments, timeline, and more info.

@Spartan I repeatedly told the consultants "more hardscape" for the reasons you said: more flexible, lower maintenance, etc.  I don't understand people's obsession with grass around here.  I think it's the suburban lawn mindset you mentioned.  As we've seen with the current grass, it's often muddy or dead.  Give me trees and hardscape all day in a heavy trafficked area like this.  Morgan Square (hence the name) is a square, not a park.  As for the timeline, they seem to be looking to start construction potentially early next year.

@spartanburgh What exactly is the "character" being lost?  The current design is a product of it's time (very early-2000s) just as this new one is.  Cities need to constantly evolve to serve the changing needs of the populace.  That's why I'll never understand the attitude of "why do we keep changing it?" (plus it's been 18 years).  As for the ice rink, the new baseball stadium would be a much better venue for that, IMO (more space, activating it during a down-time).

I like the plan, all-in-all.  I like the modern/European look.  They show the brick looking grey-ish, but I hope they end up using red brick to match the sidewalks and Wall Street.  I think the color is something that perhaps is giving people pause.  Red brick would feel more "traditional".  I love the splash pad (more interactive than the current fountain) that can be turned off to expand usable space. (IDK why a City Councilor was concerned about another one "so close" to Barnet Park--the more the merrier! There's no limit to useful and fun infrastructure.)  The new design also has a lot better north-south flow.  There's tons of terraced seating.  I'm glad there's a canopy structure / restrooms (would like to see more detail, though). 

I'd like to see a dedicated drop-off/pick-up area and additional handicapped spaces nearby to address concerns of folks with disabilities (though overall, a walkable downtown is also an accessible downtown).  I'd also like to see more detail on the interaction with Church Street.  Crossing Church was a BIG area of concern in public comments, and nothing seems to have been done to address that (I know SCDOT is a problem with that).

Herald-Journal article

Post & Courier article

Higher res images:

[mainonmain]

It's a great design, with plenty of flexibility to handle a multitude of uses and programming, while providing a central place for folks to rest and regroup and just hang out in between activities downtown.

The greenspace means grass means environmentalism folks trip me out. Yeah, let's definitely plant a non-native ground carpet that needs constant fertilizing and watering in the name of Yay-Greenspace!

[victory]

On 8/30/2023 at 3:26 AM, gman430 said:

There’s a reason Greenville and Charleston haven’t closed off their Main Streets to traffic. This is stupid. Waste of taxpayer dollars. Leave it the way it is I say. Nothing wrong with the current Morgan Square. 

I agree. I hate to be negative, but I don't know what's wrong with the way it is now. I actually prefer it, to these renderings. I went to college in Spartanburg, and have family there, hence, I've been visiting Sparkle City for 52 years now. I like the baseball stuff that will be developed down the street, but think the city may be making a mistake with the Morgan Square development, as proposed.   

[Spartan]

I think my biggest issue is the modern design aesthetic. That is not Spartanburg. Idk what our design aesthetic is, but it should not have this type of international generic blandness to it. 

[camtology]

On 9/1/2023 at 7:17 PM, Spartan said:

I think my biggest issue is the modern design aesthetic. That is not Spartanburg. Idk what our design aesthetic is, but it should not have this type of international generic blandness to it. 

I think the designs could be made a little bit more interesting, I do at least like the new layout with the permanent stage and redone walkways, but I think the main problem with redesigning Morgan square is that if we want to make it permanently closed to traffic then the city needs to be working on these plans in conjunction with new or expanded transportation options for Spartanburg. I know this is somewhat the wrong thread to discuss this but if Morgan Square is going to become the earliest model of a carless area for Spartanburg they need to make sure that they think through it carefully

[westsider28]

I'm not sure why people are concerned about the Square being car-free when it's been successfully car-free for 3 years.  Does Dunbar make that much difference?