Cool Stuff in Other Cities

[spenser1058]

As @Uncommon posted earlier, Jacksonville went through an awful phase with its downtown where it preferred to tear things down and leave an empty lot than find ways to move forward.

Thankfully, as the bad actors were exposed in the JEA debacle and some of the grassroots folks who had made other intown neighborhoods shine got involved, downtown Jax is poised for a renaissance.

The 15 projects below, both new construction and some incredible restorations will, if completed, like downtown Tampa and St Pete have done, eclipse what Orlando has in process.

The bar has been raised and now it’s up to us to meet it.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/no-lot-j-no-problem-15-other-projects-moving-forward/

From The Jaxson 

Edited January 14, 2021 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

What @spenser1058 seems to ignore or fails to take into account, is that downtown Jax and downtown Tampa, presumably still have an inventory of significant old buildings worth saving and restoring.

Orlando does not.

All the significant old buildings that are left in downtown Orlando have been saved and restored and are still standing.

I don't know of any historic old building in Orlando that is slated for in in danger of demolition, other than the City Centre building at Rosalind and Central, a building spenser himself is in favor of tearing down just for an unnecessary fancy entrance to the park, rather than restoring it.

Certainly, the Orange Court would have been worth saving, as would the old Chamber of Commerce building that got torn down for the library expansion. in '84.

But that's ancient history. 

spenser is making it sound like here in Orlando, we're just bulldozing one historic building after another.

[smileguy]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

What @spenser1058 seems to ignore or fails to take into account, is that downtown Jax and downtown Tampa, presumably still have an inventory of significant old buildings worth saving and restoring.

Orlando does not.

All the significant old buildings that are left in downtown Orlando have been saved and restored and are still standing.

I don't know of any historic old building in Orlando that is slated for in in danger of demolition, other than the City Centre building at Rosalind and Central, a building spenser himself is in favor of tearing down just for an unnecessary fancy entrance to the park, rather than restoring it.

Certainly, the Orange Court would have been worth saving, as would the old Chamber of Commerce building that got torn down for the library expansion. in '84.

But that's ancient history. 

spenser is making it sound like here in Orlando, we're just bulldozing one historic building after another.

I think that there is one other building to speak of -- One N. Orange - The State Bank of Orlando & Trust Company,  getting ready to celebrate it's 100th anniversary in just a couple of years.  With their histories beginning much earlier, and as port cities with much greater commerce and production, both Tampa and Jacksonville have always had much more historic building stock.

[spenser1058]

Sure, Orlando was smaller (although certainly in the case of Jax they tore down a lot of what they had to work with in the bad ol’ days), but that just makes it all the more important to maximize what we have.

In addition to State Bank that @smileguy mentions, there’s the Metcalf Building. There are also buildings like the old Dickson & Ives, Ivey’s, The Angebilt and the old ABC warehouse. How many of those are at maximum occupancy these days. Even more importantly, how many of them are being used for purposes of attracting attention to the core?

What that means is that, while an office is certainly one use, it tends to attract the same workers each day and mostly during the daylight hours. If you want a 24/7 downtown, uses as hotels , restaurants, theaters and such attract more new folks and for many more dayparts.

We also have an issue with negative perceptions that downtown has become predominantly for the “party ‘til you puke” crowd. If you want the folks with money to spend it downtown before and after a DPCPA or Am event, you need to determine what will attract those folks. We need to determine how to reduce the dependence on the late-night bars for the twenty-somethings. No, we can’t just make those bars leave but there’s a lot more turnover than you might imagine (especially after this year). 

So, a vision needs to take hold to decide what opportunities there are and how to take advantage of them when they arise. That’s something that (a) hasn’t been happening in the last several years and (b) even when such a process is announced, a survey usually takes place which is then placed on a shelf without serious action to put a plan in action. 

We also know that a traditional restored downtown is more popular than a flock of new buildings to attract attention. Compare the success of downtown Winter Garden and DeLand with newer ersatz downtowns or with South Eola that has had more turnovers than Pillsbury.

Finally, it interests me that some of those who seem to shout the loudest when ideas for change are proposed are from those who acknowledge they live deep in the ‘burbs and haven’t actually ventured downtown much in years. They are obviously not the target market and I’m not sure why they object so much when they don’t use the “product”.

Why do we need to do anything differently? It’s quite simple - we have an opportunity that we need to act upon. Those of us who actually live downtown desire more services today, not in some indeterminate future. Also, there is a shelf life. Not only do historic buildings need to be maintained and improved so they don’t decline (although I think more than a few here waiting for just that to happen), but the longer we leave downtown as a place that isn’t aggressively attracting amenities, the worse its reputation plummets and it becomes the equivalent of a Dead Mall that folks ignore.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Even Bal Harbour, one of the most successful retail destinations in the world, is preparing for change:

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/395363-residents-want-a-voice-in-bal-harbours-future-development-upcoming-referendum-may-grant-them-their-wish

From Florida Politics 

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure, Orlando was smaller (although certainly in the case of Jax they tore down a lot of what they had to work with in the bad ol’ days), but that just makes it all the more important to maximize what we have.

In addition to State Bank that @smileguy mentions, there’s the Metcalf Building. There are also buildings like the old Dickson & Ives, Ivey’s, The Angebilt and the old ABC warehouse. How many of those are at maximum occupancy these days. Even more importantly, how many of them are being used for purposes of attracting attention to the core?

What that means is that, while an office is certainly one use, it tends to attract the same workers each day and mostly during the daylight hours. If you want a 24/7 downtown, uses as hotels , restaurants, theaters and such attract more new folks and for many more dayparts.

We also have an issue with negative perceptions that downtown has become predominantly for the “party ‘til you puke” crowd. If you want the folks with money to spend it downtown before and after a DPCPA or Am event, you need to determine what will attract those folks. We need to determine how to reduce the dependence on the late-night bars for the twenty-somethings. No, we can’t just make those bars leave but there’s a lot more turnover than you might imagine (especially after this year). 

So, a vision needs to take hold to decide what opportunities there are and how to take advantage of them when they arise. That’s something that (a) hasn’t been happening in the last several years and (b) even when such a process is announced, a survey usually takes place which is then placed on a shelf without serious action to put a plan in action. 

We also know that a traditional restored downtown is more popular than a flock of new buildings to attract attention. Compare the success of downtown Winter Garden and DeLand with newer ersatz downtowns or with South Eola that has had more turnovers than Pillsbury.

Finally, it interests me that some of those who seem to shout the loudest when ideas for change are proposed are from those who acknowledge they live deep in the ‘burbs and haven’t actually ventured downtown much in years. They are obviously not the target market and I’m not sure why they object so much when they don’t use the “product”.

Why do we need to do anything differently? It’s quite simple - we have an opportunity that we need to act upon. Those of us who actually live downtown desire more services today, not in some indeterminate future. Also, there is a shelf life. Not only do historic buildings need to be maintained and improved so they don’t decline (although I think more than a few here waiting for just that to happen), but the longer we leave downtown as a place that isn’t aggressively attracting amenities, the worse its reputation plummets and it becomes the equivalent of a Dead Mall that folks ignore.

I'm not always sure some people completely understand the concept of private property rights or market forces.

Often times when I read their posts, I get the impression that they think there's some magic wand that, if only the evil Buddy would wave it, downtown would magically (no pun intended) transform into some urban shangri-la. 

If retail and other businesses were interested in locating downtown, they would. Period. Incentive programs might help a bit, but only if the interest was there to begin with.

All those old buildings you mentioned are in use as they are currently intended to be used and nobody else is complaining. Besides, I thought the issue was preservation vs demolition, not whether or not they're being used for some purpose you prefer or just another opportunity to take a thinly veiled swipe at the current mayoral administration in City Hall.

Besides, I'm sure there are other pressing issues the city is dealing with that occupy their resources and maybe dreaming up publicity campaigns to turn downtown office buildings into.... whatever it is you think they should be used for which I have no idea.... is just something that's not in their budget.

As for your comment "....some of those who seem to shout the loudest when ideas for change are proposed are from those who acknowledge they live deep in the ‘burbs and haven’t actually ventured downtown much in years. They are obviously not the target market and I’m not sure why they object so much when they don’t use the “product”.... which was obviously aimed at me, let me first say that Hourglass - Wadeview is hardly what I'd call "deep in the burbs". But then again hyperbole and exaggeration is something "some people around here" have become known for. I am technically within walking distance of downtown and I actually have done so before. Also, over the past couple of months, I have been on a fitness program that involves a daily walk and as such, have been going downtown almost every weekend just for the change of scenery. So I'm hoping I now qualify to have and express an opinion. But even if that weren't the case, it is irrelevant where I live and I have every bit as much right to express my thoughts as you or any other downtown resident has.

My main issue is that it seems as though all some want to do, is constantly complain about, criticize and disparage the way things are done under the current mayor. Speaking strictly for myself, though others have expressed similar sentiments, it's gotten tiresome. 

[spenser1058]

19 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure, Orlando was smaller (although certainly in the case of Jax they tore down a lot of what they had to work with in the bad ol’ days), but that just makes it all the more important to maximize what we have.

In addition to State Bank that @smileguy mentions, there’s the Metcalf Building. There are also buildings like the old Dickson & Ives, Ivey’s, The Angebilt and the old ABC warehouse. How many of those are at maximum occupancy these days. Even more importantly, how many of them are being used for purposes of attracting attention to the core?

What that means is that, while an office is certainly one use, it tends to attract the same workers each day and mostly during the daylight hours. If you want a 24/7 downtown, uses as hotels , restaurants, theaters and such attract more new folks and for many more dayparts.

We also have an issue with negative perceptions that downtown has become predominantly for the “party ‘til you puke” crowd. If you want the folks with money to spend it downtown before and after a DPCPA or Am event, you need to determine what will attract those folks. We need to determine how to reduce the dependence on the late-night bars for the twenty-somethings. No, we can’t just make those bars leave but there’s a lot more turnover than you might imagine (especially after this year). 

So, a vision needs to take hold to decide what opportunities there are and how to take advantage of them when they arise. That’s something that (a) hasn’t been happening in the last several years and (b) even when such a process is announced, a survey usually takes place which is then placed on a shelf without serious action to put a plan in action. 

We also know that a traditional restored downtown is more popular than a flock of new buildings to attract attention. Compare the success of downtown Winter Garden and DeLand with newer ersatz downtowns or with South Eola that has had more turnovers than Pillsbury.

Finally, it interests me that some of those who seem to shout the loudest when ideas for change are proposed are from those who acknowledge they live deep in the ‘burbs and haven’t actually ventured downtown much in years. They are obviously not the target market and I’m not sure why they object so much when they don’t use the “product”.

Why do we need to do anything differently? It’s quite simple - we have an opportunity that we need to act upon. Those of us who actually live downtown desire more services today, not in some indeterminate future. Also, there is a shelf life. Not only do historic buildings need to be maintained and improved so they don’t decline (although I think more than a few here waiting for just that to happen), but the longer we leave downtown as a place that isn’t aggressively attracting amenities, the worse its reputation plummets and it becomes the equivalent of a Dead Mall that folks ignore.

 

 

 

 

Following up, here’s a novel concept: a local city being PROACTIVE about its local historic core. You know, developing a VISION for how to preserve, maintain and benefit from one of your downtown’s greatest assets. What a concept!

https://www.orangeobserver.com/article/winter-garden-conducting-survey-of-historic-districts

From The West Orange Times Observer 

[AmIReal]

13 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Following up, here’s a novel concept: a local city being PROACTIVE about its local historic core. You know, developing a VISION for how to preserve, maintain and benefit from one of your downtown’s greatest assets. What a concept!

https://www.orangeobserver.com/article/winter-garden-conducting-survey-of-historic-districts

From The West Orange Times Observer 

I'm sure you're aware Orlando has already done this- quite some time ago- for commercial and residential properties. You can find it on their website.

[spenser1058]

When the Rays move on, what becomes of the Trop? One developer interested is Orlando’s Chuck Whittall of Unicorp, who’s working on O-town West and Orlando Fashion Square along with ICON Park:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/15/eight-developers-submit-visions-to-st-pete-for-tropicana-field-project/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

When the Rays move on, what becomes of the Trop? One developer interested is Orlando’s Chuck Whittall of Unicorp, who’s working on O-town West and Orlando Fashion Square along with ICON Park:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/15/eight-developers-submit-visions-to-st-pete-for-tropicana-field-project/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

IF* the Rays move on. There’s still 6 years to decide this. I don’t think they’re going anywhere personally but we will see.

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

IF* the Rays move on. There’s still 6 years to decide this. I don’t think they’re going anywhere personally but we will see.

I just mean from the Trop. Even if they stay in St. Pete, the city and just about everyone seem to think there are better sites. Of course, we’ll have a new mayor this year, so stay tuned.

[spenser1058]

More angst over what to do with the Trop and, as we saw earlier in Jacksonville, a city council with a backbone. It’s hard to conceive of Orlando’s commissioners ever doing such a thing.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/22/st-petersburg-mayor-and-city-council-spar-over-tropicana-field-project
 

From The Tampa Bay Times 

 

[jack]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

More angst over what to do with the Trop and, as we saw earlier in Jacksonville, a city council with a backbone. It’s hard to conceive of Orlando’s commissioners ever doing such a thing.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/22/st-petersburg-mayor-and-city-council-spar-over-tropicana-field-project
 

From The Tampa Bay Times 

 

HR&A is a good firm. Most public employees do not have the skill to accurately evaluate such a large scale project. Hopefully they will not go the route of internal evaluation. 

[spenser1058]

Are you ready for TBARTA (that doesn’t just roll off the tongue, does it)? 41 miles long and traversing three counties, it could be a decade:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/2021/01/22/tampa-bay-riders-to-wait-10-years-for-regional-bus-transit-line/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

[spenser1058]

How downtown Jacksonville is about to undergo YUGE changes that will give it a very different feel:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/

From The Jaxson 

[AmIReal]

That would be really good for Jax if they pull it off. I think it is an odd mix- over 100k sq feet of retail for only 650 units of residential and a paltry amount of office. I assume they plan to attract customers from outside of the neighborhood. It could work... as someone else here recently pointed out, lots of folks drive from surrounding areas to get to Armature Works in Tampa- so it is possible.

[spenser1058]

Some of the new eateries coming to Sparkman Wharf, part of Tampa’s Water Street complex:

https://www.tampabay.com/life-culture/food/2021/01/27/noble-rice-and-new-restaurant-from-c-house-team-to-open-at-sparkman-wharf/

From The Tampa Bay Times 
 

[spenser1058]

St. Pete’s main library is now the “President Barack Obama Library “.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/29/st-petersburgs-main-library-now-president-barack-obama-library/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_tampa&stream=top

From The Tampa Bay Times 

 

I like that.

[jack]

53 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

St. Pete’s main library is now the “President Barack Obama Library “.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/29/st-petersburgs-main-library-now-president-barack-obama-library/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_tampa&stream=top

From The Tampa Bay Times 

 

I like that.

Why wouldn't they pick someone local? 

[spenser1058]

31 minutes ago, jack said:

Why wouldn't they pick someone local? 

I’m guessing for the same reasons FL 427 in Altamonte and Florida’s Turnpike are both named for Ronald Reagan even though there’s no evidence he was ever on either one.

My favorite is the Hubert Humphrey bridge on to Merritt Island. There’s a reason for that one, though. He got the funding for the new bridge when everyone else turned them down.

 

 

 

[JFW657]

He also came there personally to dedicate it, as I recall. 

[Uncommon]

8 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

St. Pete’s main library is now the “President Barack Obama Library “.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/29/st-petersburgs-main-library-now-president-barack-obama-library/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_tampa&stream=top

From The Tampa Bay Times 

 

I like that.

A bit cliche. Was “Martin Luther King Jr. Library” taken?

[AmIReal]

Amazon unveils VA HQ2 and it is... um... interesting.

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/amazon-offices/the-next-chapter-for-hq2-sustainable-buildings-surrounded-by-nature

[prahaboheme]

The Plant District River Street development in Savannah on Saturday night — opened during the pandemic last year and extending the length of Savannah’s river walk.  Wonderful, modern addition to the river walk that also restores major buildings that otherwise would have been cleared out. Well done Savannah!

This will extend another half mile within 2 years with the addition of a music venue and hundreds of apartments to the west.

[spenser1058]

I liked this op-ed column from The Tampa Bay Times because it shows a member of the St. Pete City Council pushing back against the city’s mayor on a key issue regarding plans for the future.

Can you even imagine such a thing happening with Orlando’s government?

https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2021/02/03/st-petersburg-is-at-critical-juncture-with-rays-and-trop-site-column/

I know, I know - Orlando is so perfect in every way that any discussion of the future is moot. After all, Saint Buddy has at least 25 years to go as mayor - what could be better?