Cool Stuff in Other Cities

[Uncommon]

3 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

I think it’s safe to say that Tampa has eclipsed Orlando at this point.

If it hasn’t yet, it assuredly will by the middle portion of this decade, assuming Orlando’s construction rates continue as is.

 

[AmIReal]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:38 PM, Uncommon said:

If it hasn’t yet, it assuredly will by the middle portion of this decade, assuming Orlando’s construction rates continue as is.

 

FWIW, Orlando ranks #9 in apartment construction starts in 2020. Ahead of Charlotte, Atlanta and Nashville.  Top 5 is Austin,  Newark, DC, Phoenix and Dallas. Tampa did not make the top 15.

Orlando outranks Atlanta, Nashville and Charlotte for 2020 apartment construction - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

OTOH, the local market is expected to cool in the coming year. 

Orlando's new apartment construction to slow in 2021. Here's why. - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

FWIW, Orlando ranks #9 in apartment construction starts in 2020. Ahead of Charlotte, Atlanta and Nashville.  Top 5 is Austin,  Newark, DC, Phoenix and Dallas. Tampa did not make the top 15.

Orlando outranks Atlanta, Nashville and Charlotte for 2020 apartment construction - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

OTOH, the local market is expected to cool in the coming year. 

Orlando's new apartment construction to slow in 2021. Here's why. - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

Good information. Not sure if there is a major correlation between apartment construction rates and a city’s status or not (whatever that means), but I don’t Orlando’s apartment construction is relevant for the discussion of whether or not Tampa has surpassed it or not. 

[spenser1058]

Author Steve Haruch has written a book about the overwhelming changes in Nashville that would seem quite familiar to many of us here in The City Beautiful:

https://www.vanderbilt.edu/university-press/book/9780826500274

 

 

[prahaboheme]

Moynihan Train Hall opens on New Years Day - it may not be perfect but it sure beats Penn Station across the street:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.curbed.com/amp/2020/12/moynihan-train-hall-is-a-start-but-at-least-were-starting.html

[spenser1058]

2 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Moynihan Train Hall opens on New Years Day - it may not be perfect but it sure beats Penn Station across the street:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.curbed.com/amp/2020/12/moynihan-train-hall-is-a-start-but-at-least-were-starting.html

And to think they tore down Penn Station for that godforsaken iteration of MSG. And bright-eyed lads no doubt declared, because it was new (if only Baker Barrios had been there to top it with a visor!), that it was wonderful!

Of course, commuters almost immediately hated it (as they have for the past 60 years) and clamored for the return of their beloved Penn Station. It, however, could not be once the bulldozers ran.

Today, we have Moynihan Hall, which allows sunshine back in the soul of at least some New Yorkers (Rudy may be a lost cause...) Have we learned our lesson? Stay tuned...

Phil Donahue once observed that “News is what New York says is news.” The demise of Penn Station was not the first struggle for urban restoration, preservation and refurbishment much as Stonewall was not the first battle for gay rights. 

Both, however, took place at the right place and the right time to make a difference in America’s future. Many still try to forget their lessons, but the work goes on.
 

Edited December 31, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

This article from The Jaxson notes five residential projects underway in downtown Jacksonville. Three of the five are reuse or refurb of historic buildings.

When talk of a refurbishment of The Angebilt was first done, the idea was it would go to residential. By the time it happened (and probably not coincidentally because the decision was made that the old courthouse annex had to be abandoned stat! due to asbestos) and took the whole building over), the conventional wisdom became that the historic core’s highest and best use would be conversion to office.

Almost as soon as that got under way, we started hearing, no, the buildings were mostly too outdated for office, and so the old buildings sat (or in the case of Orange Court were just demolished).

While amazing restorations we’re taking place in places like downtown Lynchburg, VA and our own downtown Winter Garden with work by several developers who specialized in refurbs, the only one we got was Cameron Kuhn. He insisted only office mattered.

In retrospect, I wonder if that’s where we went awry. What’s also interesting is that, while the in-town neighborhoods received a great deal of love, once the downtown bars moved in almost all interest in downtown ceased (maybe not coincidentally, those bar owners provided the primary bloc bloc that got Buddy first elected mayor in 2003).

When Drury Inn announced it would build on International Drive, it was noted the Drury family is famous for hotel restorations in historic areas. Oddly, they seem to have zero interest in such a project downtown. Why?

Should residential be the answer for downtown’s historic core going forward? How do we get the firms that specialize in those projects interested?

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/five-more-residential-projects-headed-to-downtown/

 

 

 

[spenser1058]

Is St. Pete’s new pier all it’s, ummm, cracked up to be?

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/01/have-you-noticed-the-cracking-concrete-at-the-st-pete-pier/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

[spenser1058]

A great feature in the New York Times about how Atlanta, “the city too busy to hate”, is trying to live up to that motto:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/02/us/georgia-runoff-atlanta-.html?referringSource=articleShare

 

 

[prahaboheme]

St Pete Pier ranked #2 on USA Today’s 10best of 2020:

https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/best-new-attraction-2020/

[prahaboheme]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:36 AM, spenser1058 said:

Is St. Pete’s new pier all it’s, ummm, cracked up to be?

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2021/01/01/have-you-noticed-the-cracking-concrete-at-the-st-pete-pier/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

Luckily it’s nothing structural and hopefully the aesthetic can be improved. That’s a shame as it’s just a great addition to St Pete.

[spenser1058]

Proposed 8-story, 333-unit apartment building proposed for Jacksonville’s Southbank across the river from downtown. It’s next to the city’s Friendship Fountain:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rd-river-city-brewing-apartment-renderings/

From The Jaxson 
 

[spenser1058]

And a historic building almost torn down for a parking lot five years ago has been restored into a beautiful quadroplex.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-adaptive-reuse-of-the-elena-flats-building/

From The Jaxson

 

No doubt some developer said “it’s just too far gone to save. Run that bulldozer!”

[spenser1058]

Ground has broken on Ascent St. Petersburg, a 32-story AC Hotel and apartment tower. The downtown lot had been vacant since 2005:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2021/01/07/new-st-petersburg-hotel-apartment-tower-breaks-ground-downtown/

From The Tampa Bay Times 

Edited January 9, 2021 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

In this article about The Jaxson’s priorities for downtown Jacksonville in 2021, a couple of things stood out that are relevant to us here in Orlando. 

(1) In a proposal to “brand” the different parts of downtown, it suggests design stands which could be required for the exterior of buildings which would make them better fit into the neighborhoods they would become a part of. Some have suggested Orlando’s mayor could have no role in such a thing, mostly because Buddy has never been interested. In Jacksonville, otoh, it’s definitely a thing.

(2) I thought it was interesting when benchmarking the Jags’ Lot J project with similar projects going on in Tampa and Atlanta, the Magic’s planned entertainment complex was nowhere in sight.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/changing-the-urban-landscape-in-2021/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by spenser1058

[Uncommon]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

In this article about The Jaxson’s priorities for downtown Jacksonville in 2021, a couple of things stood out that are relevant to us here in Orlando. 

(1) In a proposal to “brand” the different parts of downtown, it suggests design stands which could be required for the exterior of buildings which would make them better fit into the neighborhoods they would become a part of. Some have suggested Orlando’s mayor could have no role in such a thing, mostly because Buddy has never been interested. In Jacksonville, otoh, it’s definitely a thing.

(2) I thought it was interesting when benchmarking the Jags’ Lot J project with similar projects going on in Tampa and Atlanta, the Magic’s planned entertainment complex was nowhere in sight.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/changing-the-urban-landscape-in-2021/

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Jacksonville’s downtown is among the very worst in Florida. I personally wouldn’t want Orlando to do almost anything Jacksonville has done or will do. Their downtown has been failing spectacularly for awhile now. If anything, they are a cautionary tale and not worth being propped up at all.

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I think Jacksonville’s downtown is among the very worst in Florida. I personally wouldn’t want Orlando to do almost anything Jacksonville has done or will do. Their downtown has been failing spectacularly for awhile now. If anything, they are a cautionary tale and not worth being propped up at all.

Yes, they went through a phase where only developers were being listened to. What’s remarkable is how quickly they’re coming back from that as the grassroots folks who have done splendid restorations of neighborhoods like Springfield, San Marco and Riverside/Avondale (that group, RAP, has been one of the largest and most effective in the country), are now directing their efforts to the downtown core. It’s a complete 180 and there is much to be learned from the work they’re doing.

It’s a lot like the turnaround in downtown Orlando beginning in 1980 but on steroids.

Edited January 10, 2021 by spenser1058

[Uncommon]

10 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Yes, they went through a phase where only developers were being listened to. What’s remarkable is how quickly they’re coming back from that as the grassroots folks who have done splendid restorations of neighborhoods like Springfield, San Marco and Riverside/Avondale (that group, RAP, has been one of the largest and most effective in the country), are now directing their efforts to the downtown core. It’s a complete 180 and there is much to be learned from the work they’re doing.

It’s a lot like the turnaround in downtown Orlando beginning in 1980 but on steroids.

Not sure what you mean when you say they are quickly bouncing back or that the turnaround is on steroids. I was there in October after previously visited in 2016 and downtown was still a complete embarrassment. Looked like nothing changed, except perhaps for the worse.

Jacksonville residents primarily ignore downtown. The beaches, San Marco, and Avondale are so much more lively and developed. 

We’ll see what happens with Lot J or if the Jags threaten to leave town. I’ve always said Jax has as much potential as any city in Florida. But I haven’t seen anything recently that suggests their downtown is going to soon experience a boom.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, Uncommon said:

Not sure what you mean when you say they are quickly bouncing back or that the turnaround is on steroids. I was there in October after previously visited in 2016 and downtown was still a complete embarrassment. Looked like nothing changed, except perhaps for the worse.

Jacksonville residents primarily ignore downtown. The beaches, San Marco, and Avondale are so much more lively and developed. 

We’ll see what happens with Lot J or if the Jags threaten to leave town. I’ve always said Jax has as much potential as any city in Florida. But I haven’t seen anything recently that suggests their downtown is going to soon experience a boom.

The changes have just begun. The politicians got caught with their hands in the cookie jar trying to privatize JEA (their larger version of OUC) and the fallout from that allowed a complete change to commence.

The groups looking to bring back downtown are going to great lengths to study how downtown should be revitalized so it’s early in the process (it’s definitely going to take a while) but already several projects are underway doing refurbishments of historic buildings (the old Federal Reserve and Independent Life buildings, just to name two) that have set empty (or worse) for decades. They’re working with builders and architects who specialize in restorations.  It’s a process we could learn much from.

[spenser1058]

NYC to connect the High Line to the new Moynihan Train Hall fo $60m:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/nyregion/moynihan-station-high-line.html?referringSource=articleShare

From The New York Times 

[spenser1058]

Jacksonville’s “Lot J” entertainment district project will not proceed, at least for now:

https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/lot-j-project-falls-one-vote-short-in-jacksonville-city-council

From Sports Illustrated 

The project failed to receive the 2/3 supermajority vote from the city council.

 

 

 

 

 

[spenser1058]

What’s amazing in the rejection of the Lot J deal is that, in Jacksonville, the city council has an actual backbone. @nite owℓ would be proud.

In Orlando, our mayor, always a fan of the billionaires, would simply have kowtowed and the city council would have said, “please, sir, may we have some more?”

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/01/12/jacksonville-city-council-defeats-lot-j-deal/6643828002/

From The Florida Times Union 

[JFW657]

35 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

What’s amazing in the rejection of the Lot J deal is that, in Jacksonville, the city council has an actual backbone. @nite owℓ would be proud.

In Orlando, our mayor, always a fan of the billionaires, would simply have kowtowed and the city council would have said, “please, sir, may we have some more?”

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/01/12/jacksonville-city-council-defeats-lot-j-deal/6643828002/

From The Florida Times Union 

Can you provide an example of something in Orlando that is of a similar nature, in which our mayor and the city council kowtowed to a billionaire developer and funded a $233 million dollar development that was a bad deal for the taxpayers?

Or was that comment just another pointless jab in the relentless pushing of your never ending, anti-Buddy Dyer agenda?

[spenser1058]

27 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Can you provide an example of something in Orlando that is of a similar nature, in which our mayor and the city council kowtowed to a billionaire developer and funded a $233 million dollar development that was a bad deal for the taxpayers?

Or was that comment just another pointless jab in the relentless pushing of your never ending, anti-Buddy Dyer agenda?

You may start with a visit to the Magic Entertainment Complex. After you do that, come back and we’ll chat.

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

You may start with a visit to the Magic Entertainment Complex. After you do that, come back and we’ll chat.

So, how much money has the city handed over to developers for that, as yet non-existent project and how will it be a bad deal for the taxpayers?

IOW, how is it comparable to the Jax project and how is the way their city council rejected it just the opposite of the way our city council has handled the MEC?

Is the city footing the bill for the MEC as was proposed with the rejected project in Jax, or are the Magic funding the MEC themselves?

If the Magic are funding the project, then it's apples and oranges.