Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex [Proposed]

[jrs2]

10 hours ago, codypet said:

Shaq has gone on record many times that in hindsight that he wished he'd never left Orlando because winning a championship here would have meant more to Orlando than the ones he got meant to LA.  Call it guilt or nostalgia or whatever, but he does have some of his heart here.   I can totally see him trying to pull something together to try to get Orlando what is deserved after 35 years of heartbreak.

Perhaps. But when The Magic went up against the Rockets, that was when MJ took a hiatus.  Then The Bulls Round 2 retooled the team, got Rodman etc., and three-peated again.  I don't know whether Shaq would have persisted at a high level over that five or six year span to wait for MJ to retire or whatever, because there were a handful of super teams in the NBA around that time.  Who knows, but the only reason THe Magic even made it that far was b/c The Bulls were shorthanded.  Then, Phil went to coach The Lakers, so...

[F-L-A]

40 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Perhaps. But when The Magic went up against the Rockets, that was when MJ took a hiatus.  Then The Bulls Round 2 retooled the team, got Rodman etc., and three-peated again.  I don't know whether Shaq would have persisted at a high level over that five or six year span to wait for MJ to retire or whatever, because there were a handful of super teams in the NBA around that time.  Who knows, but the only reason THe Magic even made it that far was b/c The Bulls were shorthanded.  Then, Phil went to coach The Lakers, so...

MJ actually returned to the NBA in '95. The Magic had to beat him to get to the Finals that year. They got swept by him the following year, when the Bulls had their best season, but he wouldn't have been unstoppable had we kept our team together. 

[jrs2]

On 2/16/2024 at 7:31 PM, F-L-A said:

MJ actually returned to the NBA in '95. The Magic had to beat him to get to the Finals that year. They got swept by him the following year, when the Bulls had their best season, but he wouldn't have been unstoppable had we kept our team together. 

Well, on the subject of "unstoppable," we must analyze The Magic, since this is the team you claim, had they kept their 1995 lineup in 1996, would be a roadblock for The 1996 Bulls.  The Magic  were never "unstoppable" themselves, as we saw in the 1995 Finals where Houston swept them 4-0.   This is the team that, had they been at "full strength," as you claim, would have kept The Bulls from being "unstoppable" in 1996.  Add to this, The Bulls took The Magic to six games, with an MJ who had "actually" just returned to The NBA after a year and a half hiatus on March 19 and The NBA Playoffs began April 27, just five weeks later.  And your point is...that...The Magic beat a guy who hadn't played for a year and a half...the same guy who coined "the first to get to practice and the last to leave," with only maybe 5 weeks to do so and the same playing time under his belt in 1995 (and didn't play in 1994) when everyone else had the benefit of the entire 1995 season and 1994 season?    And The Magic only beat The Bulls 4-2, not 4-0.  And The Bulls didn't even have a competent center and still took The Magic to six games.

So, you saw what happened the following year when MJ was at full speed and The Bulls traded Will Perdue for Dennis Rodman.  The Bulls with a seasoned MJ and Dennis Rodman under the basket were in fact that unstoppable force.  The year The Magic got by a "weak" Bulls squad, they got humiliated by Houston 0 to 4.  Was it 3 games to 4?  No, I said 0 games for The Magic to 4 games by The Rockets.  And everybody knows that the ONLY reason The Western Conference Champion was so much better than The Eastern Conference Champion by the tune of 4-0, was because of a power void at the top, namely, The Bulls of old, which allowed The Magic in.  I mean...the Eastern Conference Champ the prior year in 1994, The Knicks, took Houston to seven games.  It's pretty humiliating by comparison.

But even though The Bulls had a "weak" MJ at the end of the 1995 season, what happened with The Bulls in 1994?  The MJ-less Bulls lost to those same Knicks in the second round ONLY AFTER taking them to seven games, finally losing 4-3, and The Knicks advanced to The Finals and ONLY lost to Houston after SEVEN games as well, 4-3.  The point is that this was a good Knicks team.  What did The Magic do in 1994 by comparison?  Oh, they got blanked by Cleveland in the first round 3-0.  

So, The Magic proved that they were just a flash in the pan, in over their heads, in 1994 and  even 1995.  But The Bulls proved otherwise.

History doesn't lie.

[F-L-A]

9 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, on the subject of "unstoppable," we must analyze The Magic, since this is the team you claim, had they kept their 1995 lineup in 1996, would be a roadblock for The 1996 Bulls.  The Magic  were never "unstoppable" themselves, as we saw in the 1995 Finals where Houston swept them 4-0.   This is the team that, had they been at "full strength," as you claim, would have kept The Bulls from being "unstoppable" in 1996.  Add to this, The Bulls took The Magic to six games, with an MJ who had "actually" just returned to The NBA after a year and a half hiatus on March 19 and The NBA Playoffs began April 27, just five weeks later.  And your point is...that...The Magic beat a guy who hadn't played for a year and a half...the same guy who coined "the first to get to practice and the last to leave," with only maybe 5 weeks to do so and the same playing time under his belt in 1995 (and didn't play in 1994) when everyone else had the benefit of the entire 1995 season and 1994 season?    And The Magic only beat The Bulls 4-2, not 4-0.  And The Bulls didn't even have a competent center and still took The Magic to six games.

So, you saw what happened the following year when MJ was at full speed and The Bulls traded Will Perdue for Dennis Rodman.  The Bulls with a seasoned MJ and Dennis Rodman under the basket were in fact that unstoppable force.  The year The Magic got by a "weak" Bulls squad, they got humiliated by Houston 0 to 4.  Was it 3 games to 4?  No, I said 0 games for The Magic to 4 games by The Rockets.  And everybody knows that the ONLY reason The Western Conference Champion was so much better than The Eastern Conference Champion by the tune of 4-0, was because of a power void at the top, namely, The Bulls of old, which allowed The Magic in.  I mean...the Eastern Conference Champ the prior year in 1994, The Knicks, took Houston to seven games.  It's pretty humiliating by comparison.

But even though The Bulls had a "weak" MJ at the end of the 1995 season, what happened with The Bulls in 1994?  The MJ-less Bulls lost to those same Knicks in the second round ONLY AFTER taking them to seven games, finally losing 4-3, and The Knicks advanced to The Finals and ONLY lost to Houston after SEVEN games as well, 4-3.  The point is that this was a good Knicks team.  What did The Magic do in 1994 by comparison?  Oh, they got blanked by Cleveland in the first round 3-0.  

So, The Magic proved that they were just a flash in the pan, in over their heads, in 1994 and  even 1995.  But The Bulls proved otherwise.

History doesn't lie.

My, we're feeling snarky today, aren't we? Are you a Bulls fan by any chance? I feel like you're responding to an entirely different post than the one I wrote. All I'm saying is that very YOUNG Magic team was destined for greatness had Shaq not pulled the plug on them prematurely. Would they have beaten the Bulls again? Maybe, maybe not, but they certainly had a chance, especially towards the end of their second run. As for their '95 series, I've heard the "MJ had just returned" excuse a million times from his fans. It isn't any more convincing now than the first time I heard it. The fact that he didn't play an entire season only made him fresher than everyone else on the court. The man averaged over 30 ppg that series (on .477% shooting, compared to Pippen's 19 on .409%). He wasn't rusty by any means. The Magic were the only team to beat the dynasty Bulls with him on the court and that fact deserves recognition. Did they lose the following year? Yes. Was Horace Grant injured for the entire series (after Chicago had added Rodman, no less?) Also yes. I don't know about you, but I'll take a supposedly rusty player averaging 31 ppg over a key player being injured any day.

 

Edited February 20 by F-L-A

[jrs2]

11 hours ago, F-L-A said:

My, we're feeling snarky today, aren't we? Are you a Bulls fan by any chance? I feel like you're responding to an entirely different post than the one I wrote. All I'm saying is that very YOUNG Magic team was destined for greatness had Shaq not pulled the plug on them prematurely. Would they have beaten the Bulls again? Maybe, maybe not, but they certainly had a chance, especially towards the end of their second run. As for their '95 series, I've heard the "MJ had just returned" excuse a million times from his fans. It isn't any more convincing now than the first time I heard it. The fact that he didn't play an entire season only made him fresher than everyone else on the court. The man averaged over 30 ppg that series (on .477% shooting, compared to Pippen's 19 on .409%). He wasn't rusty by any means. The Magic were the only team to beat the dynasty Bulls with him on the court and that fact deserves recognition. Did they lose the following year? Yes. Was Horace Grant injured for the entire series (after Chicago had added Rodman, no less?) Also yes. I don't know about you, but I'll take a supposedly rusty player averaging 31 ppg over a key player being injured any day.

 

didn't mean to come off that way.

but I was around in 1995 and I watched those games when MJ came back.  The synergy of the lineup was off; it wasn't a machine.  I think The Bulls went all in on Toni being the Euro Air Apparent and he was good to a point.  But the squad hadn't played with MJ for almost two full seasons up until March 19.

I'll give you a comparison.  Tim Tebow was a better fullback than QB and was a force to be reckoned with.  He was out of football for several years, then, Jax wanted to have him try out as TE.  Maybe 5 years earlier he could have been used that way.  But now he was much leaner and not as bulky (and he got laid so he wasn't as ticked off).

Here's another example from The Magic themselves: when Jameer was on IR and in The Finals versus The Lakers, Alston and the other guy would alternate at that position and they held their own.  But then, for the sake of locker room politics, VanJeremy put in Jameer, who was nowhere near 100%, and The Magic blew the rest of those games. It was a terrible call, but one I think Dwight forced upon him.

But, think about what I said (and others) about MJ; is it so far out of the realm of probability that the synergy has suffered?  Just compare it to 1996.  Sure, he scored 31ppg, but, what about defense and the other members of the squad?  That was a different Bulls squad in 1994 and 1995, even with MJ towards the end. 

Here's another example:  The 2023-24 Gators Men's BB: At the start of the season, there were flashes, but no real consistency because half of those players came from the Portal, and they didn't have enough plays together to get some cohesion going.  Now, UF cracked the Top 25...finally...by getting a little more consistent.

Even though MJ is considered the GOAT, the way The Bulls got good wasn't from MJ lighting up the boards to the tune of 51 pts (like he did against The Celtics in the mid-'80's (in a loss)), it was from utilizing him in the team atmosphere.  That's why it took The Bulls several years to finally get past The Pistons, because that team was so solid.  But then The Bulls became that, and got past Detroit, and won 3 in a row before MJ quit.

That's my point, that, The Bulls sans MJ was decent, but, plugging him back in just like that didn't automatically return them to Three-peat glory.  They needed time and a lineup tweaking.  Which they did in 1996.

But that's what made The Lakers and Celtics so good also.  And The Lakers with Shaq.  But I get your point about The Magic with Shaq.  I'm just saying it wouldn't have been a foregone conclusion because of those great franchises of the day...  Would have I liked to see that?  Sure.  That's why i was hopeful when we had Tre-Mac and Dwight, and why I was livid at the firing of Van-Jeremy and how things ended with Dwight. I blame the organization for that and all the sanctimoniousness that came from their camp- especially when they could have gotten Rodman.  Anyway... and now with ten years of Magic Entertainment Complex, I'm just like...get the team right first...

[orange87]

Orlando Magic CEO reveals next steps for $500 million downtown entertainment district

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/04/04/magic-sports-entertainment-district-next-steps.html

[codypet]

City to vote on the whole development this month.

Whole development

 

• A 261-guest room "lifestyle hotel" with an outdoor lounge and pool deck, 16,000 square feet of meeting space and a "chef-driven" restaurant concept
• Above the hotel will be 273 apartments, including 119 studios, 90 one-bedroom, 59 two-bedroom and five penthouse units.
• A 3,500-capacity music venue
• More than 200,000 square feet of Class A office space
• Roughly 100,000 square feet of retail space
• A 1.5-acre "urban living room" that would serve as flexible green space for events
• 1,140 spaces of on-site parking

Phase 1 to be complete by 2027.  Intent is to draw the 2028 All Star game to Orlando

[tc01]

I wonder when this will breakground?......... 

[jrs2]

20 minutes ago, codypet said:

City to vote on the whole development this month.

Whole development

 

• A 261-guest room "lifestyle hotel" with an outdoor lounge and pool deck, 16,000 square feet of meeting space and a "chef-driven" restaurant concept
• Above the hotel will be 273 apartments, including 119 studios, 90 one-bedroom, 59 two-bedroom and five penthouse units.
• A 3,500-capacity music venue
• More than 200,000 square feet of Class A office space
• Roughly 100,000 square feet of retail space
• A 1.5-acre "urban living room" that would serve as flexible green space for events
• 1,140 spaces of on-site parking

Phase 1 to be complete by 2027.  Intent is to draw the 2028 All Star game to Orlando

Hmmm.  well...we shall see how this progresses.

I will say I was very disappointed when that 17+ story residential tower at Central & Division, across from the Fed Cthse, never happened.  It was a separate entity and would have really helped that area transform and compliment the MEC proposal.  It showed confidence in the area...

[TRENCH]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:02 PM, codypet said:

Phase 1 to be complete by 2027. 

Raise your hand if you believe in this timeline.  

[codypet]

Nope

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

Nope

I feel like these guys are in the business of selling an idea, not an actual product.

[F-L-A]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:55 AM, orange87 said:

Orlando Magic CEO reveals next steps for $500 million downtown entertainment district

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/04/04/magic-sports-entertainment-district-next-steps.html

Step #836: Continue to do nothing. 

[orange87]

Scumbags.

Orlando Magic seeks incentives from city for Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/04/16/orlando-magic-sports-entertainment-district.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=OR&ana=e_OR_BN&j=35059276&senddate=2024-04-16

[orlandocity87]

So the Magic contributed $50 million to the Kia Center + $1 million/year on rent so far = $64 million. For a $480 million facility. 

Not to mention they paid $0 towards the $110M Amway Arena, which is equivalent to $277M today. 

I realize they're not the sole users of either arena, but that's already a lot of public support for a bottom-of-the-league team...

[codypet]

14 hours ago, orange87 said:

Scumbags.

Orlando Magic seeks incentives from city for Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/04/16/orlando-magic-sports-entertainment-district.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=OR&ana=e_OR_BN&j=35059276&senddate=2024-04-16

You mean beside the land deals they got for the property and subsequent leaseback?  Then sitting on the property for half a decade.

[jrs2]

17 hours ago, orange87 said:

Scumbags.

Orlando Magic seeks incentives from city for Orlando Magic Entertainment Complex

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/04/16/orlando-magic-sports-entertainment-district.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=OR&ana=e_OR_BN&j=35059276&senddate=2024-04-16

didn't they already ask for incentives years ago, or was that just a back and forth banter theory with @spenser1058about why, I thought, ground hadn't been broken yet because they were expecting money b/c Dyer wanted a certain number of square feet in a ballroom?

[shardoon]

4 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

So the Magic contributed $50 million to the Kia Center + $1 million/year on rent so far = $64 million. For a $480 million facility. 

Not to mention they paid $0 towards the $110M Amway Arena, which is equivalent to $277M today. 

I realize they're not the sole users of either arena, but that's already a lot of public support for a bottom-of-the-league team...

Didn't the county also just approve/divert more tourist funds to do upgrades to Kia Center at the Magic's urging? 

[orange87]

Remember. This is the DeVos family we're talking about. They're scumbags.

[jrs2]

55 minutes ago, orange87 said:

Remember. This is the DeVos family we're talking about. They're scumbags.

what is your exact beef with them?  I remember what @spenser1058's beef was.  calling them out as scumbags- I'd like to know why.  If you want to make that label stick, list the reason(s).  You called them scumbags twice in two posts.  Did they fire you or something?  I think DEI has permeated that organization like a virus, so it can't be that.  You ticked about Rodman and Grant Hill?

[orange87]

46 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

what is your exact beef with them?  I remember what @spenser1058's beef was.  calling them out as scumbags- I'd like to know why.  If you want to make that label stick, list the reason(s).  You called them scumbags twice in two posts.  Did they fire you or something?  I think DEI has permeated that organization like a virus, so it can't be that.  You ticked about Rodman and Grant Hill?

I just think they're scumbags. They own Amway which is a scummy scam of a company. I also hate what they've done with the OMEC situation. I also don't like that Betsy DeVos was the former Education Secretary; although, to be fair, Trump is the one who gave her that position.

[codypet]

18 hours ago, jrs2 said:

what is your exact beef with them?  I remember what @spenser1058's beef was.  calling them out as scumbags- I'd like to know why.  If you want to make that label stick, list the reason(s).  You called them scumbags twice in two posts.  Did they fire you or something?  I think DEI has permeated that organization like a virus, so it can't be that.  You ticked about Rodman and Grant Hill?

I don't know anything about them personally, but geez they're horrible team owners.  Are they subscribing to the Major League Movie model of operating a major sports team?  I know they're finally in the playoffs this year, but they're not gonna make it to the finals.  I know there's a difference between Rich DeVos owning the team vs the heirs.  

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

I don't know anything about them personally, but geez they're horrible team owners.  Are they subscribing to the Major League Movie model of operating a major sports team?  I know they're finally in the playoffs this year, but they're not gonna make it to the finals.  I know there's a difference between Rich DeVos owning the team vs the heirs.  

They have a 25-game win improvement over the past 2 years. 2nd best behind OKC.  You're right they won't make the finals (neither will 27 other teams), but relative to expectations this has been a highly successful season.

[jrs2]

20 hours ago, orange87 said:

I just think they're scumbags. They own Amway which is a scummy scam of a company. I also hate what they've done with the OMEC situation. I also don't like that Betsy DeVos was the former Education Secretary; although, to be fair, Trump is the one who gave her that position.

Amway wasn't a scam. It was geared more to sales type personalities. But as I stated before, Amway didn't work if you didn't change your buying habits. It doesn't make them scumbags because most people don't want to do that. That's like calling Waste Management scumbags. You just don't understand network marketing, which is legal.

I don't know about Betsy, but, the goody two shoes attitude towards Rodman rubbed me wrong in a big way.  This isn't church, people. Right?  And, the utter failure thus far of the MEC and their feigned fervor to push an LA Live type venue in DTO has made that organization, in my book, a complete joke.  

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

the goody two shoes attitude towards Rodman

You keep mentioning Rodman. What does he have to do with the Magic?